Leading after 6 shots in .45ACP

  • 2.5K Views
  • Last Post 26 March 2011
mark1911 posted this 24 June 2010

After trying my best to absorb all of the information I could from you guys, I still have an issue I need help with. Here is the data I have gathered.

file:///C:/Users/Jones/Desktop/148534.jpg.45 acp Colt series 80 Government, barrel slugs at 00.4515 Federal #150 large rifle primer. 5.0 grains of Alliant Bullseye powder pushing a lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet> I cast these with wheel weight alloy and water quenched Lee liquid alox lube generous application not cut The bullets were sized to .4520 (+/-00.0005)

ambient temp at firing 89 degrees unbearable humidity These six rounds chronograph at; 867 859 869 922 847 855

This is a fairly new weapon I put around 300 copper jacketed rounds through it. I cleaned the barrel until it was free of ALL copper fouling. I have since shot only cast for a total of approximately 200 rounds. These have been shot over a week with several cleanings in between. I loaded a mag with 6 rounds as noted above and found that I am already starting to build leading in the barrel. I was wondering what direction to go next. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. 

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
JeffinNZ posted this 24 June 2010

Have you tried the same bullet air cooled and not water quenched? You shouldn't need to heat treat WW for an ACP. Also, try shooting them as cast and not sized.

Cheers from New Zealand

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 25 June 2010

I just discovered that my 40SW pistol does not like alox at all. (one thick coat anyway) I was wondering why it was shooting even worse than usual untill I switched to the same bullet-tumble lube design, same load, only these were lubed with traditional lube. After about ten to fifteen shots it came back around. HUH.

No leading though, these were WW air cool

Attached Files

hunterspistol posted this 25 June 2010

    I would agree, air-cooled wheelweight is hard enough,  I have some rifle rounds that shoot it.  Also, I use Carnuba Red as a lube, not a tumble lube bullet.  Sometimes I have issues with leading from undersize bullets (especially hardened ones) or tighter twist rates.  My TC's sometimes have a tighter twist rate than a standard automatic, it's used to stabilize heavy bullets.  I don't think twist rate has much to do with it though, not in your case.  Sizing may, bullets can be .002” larger than bore diameter.

Ron

Attached Files

Vassal posted this 25 June 2010

to add to this, I also just found a load (in a rifle) which leaded with one one lube at a velocity I can't remmeber right now, while the SAME load with a lube containing Carnuba, not only shot clean (no leading) but also significantly faster!:shock: I have become a true believer in Carnuba. 

I have yet to use any full blown red stuff, but am reffering to White label BAC (Beeswax-Alox-Carnuba)  Nice stuff!

Attached Files

cityboy posted this 25 June 2010

mark1911 wrote: file:///C:/Users/Jones/Desktop/148534.jpg.45 acp Colt series 80 Government, barrel slugs at 00.4515 Federal #150 large rifle primer. 5.0 grains of Alliant Bullseye powder pushing a lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet> 867 859 869 922 847 855

Why are you using rifle primers? By mistake, I loaded a small batch of 45s with rifle primers, and the primer was ABOVE the case head. I was afraid to shoot them because of a possible slam fire.

A load of 5.0 grains of BE strikes me as being a bit high. Velocity data I have seen lists GI 45acp hardball loads as 825-850 fps. As others have suggested try using as-cast unhardened bullets. I used as-cast 230 grain bullets in m NM service pistol for practice for the leg match at Camp Perry. My load was 5.0 grains of W231with the H&G #34 bullet. Velocity, if I recall correctly was about 825fps.

Jim

Attached Files

Dale53 posted this 26 June 2010

Federal #150's are large PISTOL primers (I suspect Mark 1911 just made a typo).

5.0 grs of Bullseye is the original Military load behind a 230 gr jacketed bullet in the .45 ACP.

Lyman (49th Edition Reloading Handbook) lists a max of 5.0 grs of Bullseye behind a 452374 225 gr cast bullet. They show 5.3 max with a 230 gr jacketed bullet, as a matter of interest. It is common to have a higher velocity with cast as opposed the jacketed with similar loads (lubricated cast lead has a lower friction coefficient).

At any rate, I would try another lube. I get NO leading with cast lead bullets in my 1911's (both have National Match barrels) using .452” sized cast bullets of A/C WW's. The same applies to my .45 ACP revolvers (S&W 625's).

As a matter of interest, I have a friend who was having leading problems (not horrible but obvious) when using a particular lube. I suggested he try Lar's White Label Carnauba Red. He did and ALL leading disappeared.

I have had excellent results with NRA 50/50 Beeswax/Alox 2138F and have the same results with Carnauba Red. I switched to Carnauba Red due to it's higher melting temperature (I sometimes shoot in VERY hot weather). It DOES require heat when applying in a lube/sizer but it is worth it to me (I don't have to worry about leaving loaded cast bullet ammo in my vehicle during the hot summer time).

Do NOT get discouraged. I would try conventional lube before you give up on “Home Cast bullets".

As a matter of interest, I shoot cast bullets in a variety of revolvers and auto pistols including .44 magnums and have NO leading. I have fired three and four hundred rounds without cleaning with no loss of accuracy.

If you are experiencing leading, you DO have a problem. It is difficult to diagnose long distance. If you lived close, I could probably have you up “up and running” in a matter of minutes.

Long distance just means you'll have to keep asking and  trying.

FWIW Dale53

Attached Files

giorgio de galleani posted this 26 June 2010

I was wondering if mark 1911 has really any leading at all.

After only 6 rounds with an otherwise apparently correct load.

My Lee 90350 are my most accurate acp bullets,cast soft and not sized.

Where is your leading,at the throat or all along the barrel?

I'd try 3.5 or 4 grains ,and inspect the barrel after ,at least 50 rounds.

Use a lot of light,a magnifying lens,and put a piece of white toilet paper in the barrel to best reflrct the light on it.

What about accuracy,with that load? .

Attached Files

mark1911 posted this 05 July 2010

I ended up getting a Lee 90351 mold that is a 230 gr with regular lube groves. Bought a RCBS sizer and blue angel lube, now all is good. I cheated and threw money at the problem. I got away with it this time.

Attached Files

Clod Hopper posted this 10 July 2010

Use Large pistol primers. Do not water quench. Try unsized first. Clean barrel with JB compound or Remington bore polish to polish out any unseen roughness.

Dale M. Lock

Attached Files

Dicko posted this 10 July 2010

Start by defining too much leading.   It is possible in some circumstances to get little or no leading, but generally some leading is normal with cast bullets.   It is a matter of how much and how easy to clean.   My personal rule of thumb is that you should be able to fire at least 200 rounds and preferably 400 before leading is heavy enough to need cleaning before continuing shooting.   Maybe you are getting worried too soon. 

Having said that let me offer the following.   Sizing to 452 is right for a 4515 groove.   Lee liquid alox works well in some guns but not others.   I have noticed no particular pattern so I have no idea how to determine that in advance.   I don't like it for cosmetic reasons, but more importantly, I have encountered no significant leading with conventional canelure lubricants.   Some lubes may be better than others, and as others have said, in some cases a particular leading problem has been cured by a particular lube.  In general, though, I have used 50/50 Alox/beeswax and various hard wax lubes and all have been OK.   At 45ACP velocities any decent lube should be OK.   I therefore recommend you try a conventional canelure bullet with any good lube.

You don't need particularly hard bullets for 45ACP, so water quenching is waste of time.  But more than that, note that it works only if the alloy contains a particular percentage of arsenic.  Furthermore, tin inhibits the quenching effect, so the aloy needs a minima percentage of tin.  Traditionally, wheelweights were formulated with exactly the right composition to harden successfully with water quenching.   There is no guarantee they are that composition these days, and I have noticed that they are consistently softer than they should be.

They should contain 4% antimony but often contain only 2 or 3%.   I am aware that wheelweights are popularly used as is in the US, but that is below the cast bullet industry standard of 6%, and I would not risk less than 6% for customers who might be firing them in long barrelled 357 or 44 Mag revolvers.   45ACP velocity is more tolerant and you will often gt away with WW, but my advice is to add 3% antimony to your next melt.

Antimonial alloys age harden over about three weeks, so don't shoot them soon after they are cast.   To summarise, use a conventional cnelure lubed bullet with a good lube, cast with 6% antimony, size to 452, and I will be surprised if it does not work.

Dicko 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Attached Files

afish4570 posted this 15 November 2010

Been using 4.7 gr. Bulleye in 45ACP loads with the 374 bullet  sized to .45 and water quenched range lead with alittle tin added. Been using this lead in the 6 cav. Lee fn 175 gr. 40 S&W too and am not happy with the leading issue......(4.3 gr/ Bullseye in 40 load). Should  be using a cooler burning powder than BE????afish4570:(:(

Attached Files

Tom W. posted this 15 January 2011

You don't need a heavy colt of LLA, just a wee bit so the bullet looks like it's shellacked. Just a sheen is enough.

Attached Files

Dale53 posted this 16 January 2011

mark1911 wrote: I ended up getting a Lee 90351 mold that is a 230 gr with regular lube groves. Bought a RCBS sizer and blue angel lube, now all is good. I cheated and threw money at the problem. I got away with it this time.

Suspicions confirmed!!

Glad you got it up and running. As you have found out, a proper cast bullet load should produce NO leading of consequence in a good 1911.

Congratulations! Dale53

Attached Files

gunrunner2305 posted this 23 March 2011

I have a Colt Gold Cup . Have shot 1000's of Lee bullets ww and range lead with zero leading. I used 4.2-4.6 grains Bullseye. 5.0 seems at max for cast lead loads. Les.

Attached Files

codarnall posted this 25 March 2011

I 've never had a leading problem at ACP velocities with any good lube. Perhaps with pure lead might, definitely seems odd. Have run 1000's through several guns at 4.1 bullseye, 230 gr.

Attached Files

CB posted this 25 March 2011

I use a variety of different 45 SWC bullets and the most accurate is a mold I had Veral make me. I shoot 5.0 grs or BE in the 1911 and 4.2 in my gold cup with a tuned spring. Never leaded. Of course I am biased about lube ;) since I make my own...

Attached Files

billglaze posted this 26 March 2011

Don't know if this will help, but all I can do is tell you what works for me.

All my bullets weigh from 185 gr. to 230 RN.  For powder I use 6 Gr. Unique.  Good velocity, not near maximum, good accuracy, absolutely no leading or any signs of same.  They are cast from WW, and they're not water-dropped.

I've shot this load in a Model 80 1911, Taurus 1911, Colt Combat Commander, Colt's officers model.  Still shooting all of them, in fact.

None have showed any signs of leading at any time, and no deterioration of accuracy, and the barrels have never seen a bronze brush, let alone a stainless brush.

However, when it comes to my new .41 Magnums.........don't ask.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

Attached Files

codarnall posted this 26 March 2011

Once I thought I try liquid wax. It turned out it was liquid vinyl. What a mess, barrel and bullets. Re cast them and tried liquid carnuba for an experiment, Other than that ridiculous experiment with vinyl 45's just never seem to lead or foul up. Charlie --we've done dumb things, those who haven't, haven't done anything!

Attached Files

CB posted this 26 March 2011

You hit the nail on the head there Charlie!

Attached Files

Close