What happened to no lube groove bullets?

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  • Last Post 28 August 2012
CB posted this 09 May 2011

I have for years been putting bullet lube only in the tiny groove ahead of the gas check for best accuracy and am tempted to try the next step -- no lube. But I don't like cleaning lead out of bores so thought I would ask for advice first.

There was some testing of no lube groove bullets going on a few years ago but I didn't hear how that turned out. Does that mean that it didn't work?

We know that in at least some situations we can avoid filing the lube grooves by coating the bullets with Lee Liquid Alox or it's competitors.

Ken Mollohan did an elegant series of tests years ago that showed, at least to my satisfaction, that lead alloy bullets don't need to be lubricated in the normal sense of making them slick (lead is already slick enough and lead won't rub off and adhere to smooth steel no matter how you try.) Ken, and others, have suggested that bullet “lubricants” are actually doing something else. Perhaps sealing temporarily with a barrier of viscous liquid? Perhaps nothing that can't be done some other way?

That leads to the question: is “lubrication” needed at all if interference between the bullet and throat, use of wads behind the bullet, or plastic upsetting of the bullet under gas pressure seals the gas behind the bullet when things start to happen?

What do we know about this and why hasn't anybody told me?

John

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CB posted this 09 May 2011

John I suspect until now you havent asked.. Lead wont adhere to smooth surfaces unless the surface is hot enough to reach melting temperature which is true, but it is my belief that bullet lube serves a much different purpose and that is forming a barrier or coating on the bore that prevents lead from adhering to the bore. Especially since the bores on production guns at least is very rough and I feel there is shearing that occurs as the bullet travels down the bore.

I have to leave for a Dr. appt now, but I will revisit this later and expand on my thoughts about this subject.

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99 Strajght posted this 09 May 2011

I think Jeff is right but I also know that a gas check helps as the velocity goes up. I think it also has to do with gas cutting. I can use less lube with a gas check. Less lube can be better but you need more lube as the velocity goes up. I will be interested to see what other people have to say.

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pat i. posted this 09 May 2011

John,

A bunch of years back in my never ending and continually failing quest to revolutionize cast bullet shooting I ordered an LBT mould with one cavity having a gas check shank only and the other cavity being smooth from stem to stern like a paper patched bullet. Naturally the cavity with the gas check shank worked alright as long as there was lube in the groove but I never could get the PB bullet to shoot and it leaded the bore. I know other people have said they were able to get a bullet with no lube to shoot but I couldn't. Maybe using a conventional bullet that wears lube grooves or using some kind of filler is the answer but I never tried because I was trying to make things as simple as humanly possible. I even tried moly coating the PB bullet but that didn't work either. After that experience I'll stick to a lubed bullet from now on.

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Ed Harris posted this 09 May 2011

Smooth sided, grooveless bullets work OK in mild pistol and revolver loads with mild loads when used with a film lube that covers the bullet everywhere it contacts the bore. Alberts pistol bullets were made this way, and some bullets used in factory handgun loads, notably Federal, lead bullet .38 Specials are now made this way.

As for unlubed, smooth bullets, my understanding is that some people were using these with COW fillers to protect the bullet base from the powder gases, and were doing so with some success. I have not tried this method myself.  Maybe somebody who has will chime in. It may be that the COW filler simply scours any lead deposited on the bore surface and cleans it away with every shot. Recovery of some fired bullets fired into in a water tank should reveal what is really happening. I'll bet somebody has done this.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 09 May 2011

After countless dollars, countless hours, countless errors, and countless failures I had an epiphany one night about really trying to buck the system. There's over 100 years of cast bullet trials and errors by some pretty bright guys and in that time if something like lubeless grooveless bullets had any long term redeeming qualities they would have been on the market and on everybody's to buy list years ago. In other words in my opinion if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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hunterspistol posted this 10 May 2011

      If I'm not mistaken, Mustafa Curtis experimented with them to some degree.  I think there's a photo in Fouling Shot somewhere.

    Ron

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william iorg posted this 10 May 2011

While I do not have as much experience with no-lube cart bullet shooting as Norm Johnson I have had some success with this type of shooting.

Following some of Norm's advice on Charles Hamilton's CB-L at Yahoo groups, my father and I tried some no-lube cast bullets. Our test rifles were Winchester Model 94AE's in 357 Magnum.

Shooting “normal” SWC and round nose bullets with no lubrication in these rifles resulted in lead from throat to muzzle. We could not come up with the correct diameter and seating depth. Norm was very patient in his explanation of how to shoot no-lube bullets and after leading us “by-the-hand”, we finally achieved success using ONE bullet.

Our success was with the NEI No. 161A 190-grain bullet. We cast this bullet rather soft - 12 to 14 BHN as measured by a Lee hardness tester and seated the bullet as cast in 357 magnum cases.

Our best loads in the Winchester trapper were:

13.0 grains of Hodgdon Group for 1669 fps.

13.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal for 1,571 fps.

15.0 grains of IMR 4227 we did not chronograph this load.

These three loads, tested in two Winchester rifles gave us accuracy equal to that of lubricated cast bullets at 50- and 75-yards with three shot groups averaging less than 2 ½ inches as measured on the RCBS Load program Target Tool. We were using a Williams receiver sight and the issue post front sight. The light was at our back and the target was clearly illuminated. While not bolt-action quality, we considered this good shooting for these rifles with cast bullets.

The important issue is the happy circumstance of ideal bullet fit in the throat. The weight forward design on the NEI bullet is similar to, but not as ideal as the true LBT style bullet. For our rifles, there was enough bullet to fill the throat with the bullet seated to the crimp groove and a heavy roll crimp applied by the Lyman seat die.

We have a quantity of 180-grain LBT bullets with a wider nose and slightly greater length of bullet out of the case. We believe this bullet may shoot better than the NEI but have not tested the theory in no-lube shooting.

I wish we could have found a Marlin 1894 in 357 Magnum to test side by side with the Winchesters but we could not.

I believe no-lube cast bullets are - for most of us, a stunt, and while I cannot contribute a great deal in the discussion of no-lube shooting, I believe I can say the NEI 190-grain bullet in the 357 Magnum Winchester Trapper is a good place to start. I also believe Norm Johnson has as much experience as anyone shooting no-lube bullets.

 The link is to a picture of the 180-grain LBT and the 190-gr NEI bullets.

http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/selsnslim/a-2.jpg>http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/selsnslim/a-2.jpg

Slim

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CB posted this 11 May 2011

Thanks to all who replied.

Considering all, I guess I have enough other variables to play with with being thrown in that briar patch.

It's an intriguing idea and I often wonder just what that tiny tiny bit of lube ahead of the gas check really does but I'm having enough trouble trying to figure out other mysteries.

John

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CB posted this 16 May 2011

I have been working my way through Joe's Cast Bullets for Beginner and Expert second edition and got to the part on this issue. Several shooters contributed their experiences with no lube bullets. Very interesting and probably the best source of information on the subject. Look it up if you are interested in this topic.

John

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noylj posted this 19 May 2011

Maybe instead of treating the bullet, one could treat the barrel. Maybe with one of the “no lube” super coatings used on gun parts?

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Clod Hopper posted this 26 July 2011

In the NRA's “Cast Bullets” by Col. G.H. Harrison, on page 86 is a short article that intrigues me. This fella loaded Lyman No. 311413ES cast of type metal with a GC, unsized, but no lube on the bullets!! He loaded 48 grain of H 4831, then 1-1.5 grain of dacron, 2-3 grains of lithium grease in the case neck and then he seated the bullet! This was in the .30-06, BTW. He got 1.25-2 MOA which about the best he could in that rifle. He mentioned the throat was very tight, and ogive is lightly engraved. He also liked 14 grain of 2400 in the gun with the same technique. In the .45-70, he used type metal, 27 grains of 2400, plus dacron and grease with Lyman 45783. He used a modified air pump to meter the grease.

Now, before you all jump in here, let me point out that the H4831 and 2400 are not the same speeds as new powders with the same names. Dacron or any filler are frowned upon by many experienced loader, especially in bottle necked cases.

My theory on the role of lube in a cast bullets is to seal the base of the bullet like gasket and protect it from hot gases. The lube may absorb some of the heat,too. Also, H 4831 is pretty slow and if unburnt, would act as a filler and protect the bullet base.

When I try this, I am going with moly grease.

Here is the link to “Cast Bullets.” in PDF format.
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/default.html

Dale M. Lock

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joeb33050 posted this 27 July 2011

pat i. wrote: After countless dollars, countless hours, countless errors, and countless failures I had an epiphany one night about really trying to buck the system. There's over 100 years of cast bullet trials and errors by some pretty bright guys and in that time if something like lubeless grooveless bullets had any long term redeeming qualities they would have been on the market and on everybody's to buy list years ago. In other words in my opinion if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Bullets going ~1100fps are affected less by wind than those going ~1500fps; no grease groove bullets have higher BCs than conventional and have less wind drift. Back in my long range phase I had 30, 32 and 45 cal molds sans grease grooves made. These, particularly the 30 and 45 cal bullets, shoot fairly well but not the best from my guns. My long range phase is over. I loaned the 30 and 45 molds to Bill McGraw, he and Mustafa Curtiss had ?good? results. hes both shoot without leading with various combinations of plastic wads, CoW, lube on bullets, lube/grease wads, etc. Dan Theodore has designed bullets with minimal depth grease grooves that don't lead and have higher BCs.

I'd be happy to loan either 30 or 45 cal mold to anyone for a ~ 2 week period if that person would report back results.

joe b. 

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madsenshooter posted this 27 August 2012

I went near lubeless in order to get a bullet to work in my 6x45. I put mineral oil and Marvel Mystery Oil thinned LLA only on the driving bands of my little Eagan MX2-243. I pretreated the barrel with the same. Since I was trying to get a bite on rifling that's only .002” tall and radiused, (Obermeyer 5R), having molten wax dripping out the end of the barrel after 10 shots didn't make sense to me. Also since I have a stainless steel barrel that's pretty smooth and cast with babbitts, I shot some with zero lube which worked ok. Probably not a good thing to shoot a lot that way though. Now if I can get larger bullets to go the same 2200-2300fps without lube, that'll be interesting.

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onondaga posted this 28 August 2012

Hey you guys! 

You already know a really slick shiny bore will help when trying no lube.

I recommend you give a try with my bore polishing method that gives a hard slick shine to bores:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 28 August 2012

ok, i can come out of the closet now ... (g)   when i wuz shooting br 22 rimfire ... we spent some time ...dipping ...our bullets just before chambering ...some major matches were won doing this !

hoppes #9 and shooters choice lead remover were some liquids that were tried...

did it make anything better ?    duhhhh  i am not sure....or maybe...sometimes..... (g)


while in the confessional booth...i should mention that we also played with using sticky gooey silly putty ( use the name brand ) on our forestock and front rest ...to dampen stock vibrations ....this we actually were pretty sure worked........maybe...sometimes ...

there !   i stand purged ....ken

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