cast furnaces

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Last Post 24 June 2012

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milboltnut posted this 23 June 2011

I was looking at a Lee 110 and 220 drop furnaces. They both only rise to 600 degrees. It's been said that between 700 and 800 is ideal. What say you? I don't mind the wait time, although I thought 220 would be quicker. I would also think that 220 would get hotter.

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Brodie posted this 23 June 2011

I use a Lee 110V pot and it works fine for me. I do not have a reliable thermometer, but I have not experienced any casting issues where more heat than the pot would emit could solve a problem. It is just as good as my old Lyman.

B.E.Brickey

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milboltnut posted this 23 June 2011

Coot,

so you jack it all the way up and you're good to go?

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CB posted this 23 June 2011

Buy a thermometer. The numbers on the dials are just reference points, not temp indicators. I've had LEE furnaces approaching red hot (by accident), so don't set one at it's highest setting and let it blaze away. Also, LEEs temperature regulation is pretty non existent. There really is no thermostat involved, and the dial settings from unit to unit are often unique. Still, they are the cheapest thing out there, and you can certainly cast adequate bullets with them.

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Brodie posted this 24 June 2011

No I don't use it at the highest setting. You may have something wrong with your thermostat. I would call Lee or whoever you got the pot from.

B.E.Brickey

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CB posted this 24 June 2011

I was addressing the OP. I was attempting to explain that LEE furnaces go considerably higher than 600 degrees, and it would be best to not use the pot at it's highest setting.

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delmarskid1 posted this 24 June 2011

I got 900 degrees out of my Lee 20 pond 110v dipper pot last week. It was an accident. I had it set at 8 1/2 out of 9.

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milboltnut posted this 24 June 2011

Manufactures description....

Melt Time: 20-30 minutes to melt lead at 600 degrees F

I thought the max temp.was 600 degress

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CB posted this 25 June 2011

There is recommended temp and then there is max temp. They never advertise max temp.

I know my little hot plate that I use to heat up my molds will reach 1125 degrees F when I put a K Type T/C on it reading the temp with my PID controller.

It all has to do with the wattage of the heating element verses the amount of material being heated. That will also affect the melting time. I have a 75 watt tube heater for my star heater plate and it have a very quick heat up and cycle time.

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milboltnut posted this 25 June 2011

So there's no such thing as too cool of a cast which tends to be wrinkled and don't fill out right, or too hot and becomes frosted and break apart?

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CB posted this 25 June 2011

I have 3 Lee pots for casting one is for pure lead and nothing else, one 10 pounder is for alloyed lead for small runs, my 20 pounder is for alloyed lead for doing production, plus when I do 50 caliber 500 plus grain bullets the big pot doesn't run out as fast.

Jerry

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CB posted this 25 June 2011

milboltnut wrote: So there's no such thing as too cool of a cast which tends to be wrinkled and don't fill out right, or too hot and becomes frosted and break apart? Nobody said that. Wrinkled bullets are usually from a cold mould, or one that has oil in the cavities. Frosted bullets are seen when the mould temps are high. The missing piece here seems to be that mould temperature is important too. Personally, I cast with my alloy at about 800 degrees, and at that temp frosted bullets are pretty common, depending on the mould. Super overheated bullets exhibit heavy frosting, and low resistance when the sprue is cut. I've seen these bullets break apart when dropped from the mould. This is because they're still nearly molten in the middle. If you're encountering this situation, you need to take a break & let the mould cool a bit.

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6pt-sika posted this 25 June 2011

anachronism wrote: milboltnut wrote: So there's no such thing as too cool of a cast which tends to be wrinkled and don't fill out right, or too hot and becomes frosted and break apart? Nobody said that. Wrinkled bullets are usually from a cold mould, or one that has oil in the cavities. Frosted bullets are seen when the mould temps are high. The missing piece here seems to be that mould temperature is important too. Personally, I cast with my alloy at about 800 degrees, and at that temp frosted bullets are pretty common, depending on the mould. Super overheated bullets exhibit heavy frosting, and low resistance when the sprue is cut. I've seen these bullets break apart when dropped from the mould. This is because they're still nearly molten in the middle. If you're encountering this situation, you need to take a break & let the mould cool a bit.

Yep , I have to agree about the “to hot frosted and breaking apart” thing !

I water drop 95% of the bullets I cast and every so often I will find them in the bucket where they started to seperate close to the base .

One of the easiest ways to not overhaet to quickly (atleast for me) is to run maybe 3 or 4 two/one cavity molds at the same time . However if you water drop as I do thats a pain as you then need to seperate everything after the fact . But if you just air cool no big deal !

With my 5 or 6 cavity molds I use just one or two at a time and it seems to work out okay as far as the cooling thing is concerned .

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Brodie posted this 25 June 2011

ffI have found that with my casting tempo and molds that frosted bullets are a function of both mold heat and ambient temperature. The colder my garage is the more easily I get frosted bullets. As long as I cast with two or more molds (of the same material) I don't need to worry about over hot molds to the point where the bullets break when dropped.

Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Dale53 posted this 26 June 2011

I don't water drop. However, I don't have a mould temperature problem these days. I used to cool the moulds by a variety of methods (you WILL over heat multicavity moulds if you are casting as fast as you should). However, some years ago I added a manicurists fan to my set up. It blows down on my mould where I sit it for a few seconds for the sprue to harden. After the mould is up to heat, I turn the fan on and continue to cast. The fan maintains mould temperature and and allows me to continuous cast without temperature issues.

I bought my fan at the “Target” store for the munificent sum of $7.00. Walmart has a similar fan. Both were found in the fan department (not the manicurists department). It has been a real boon for me:

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milboltnut posted this 26 June 2011

Good point dale..... I'll keep that in mind. Even with aluminum molds they tend to overheat?

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Pigslayer posted this 13 May 2012

Dale53 wrote: I don't water drop. However, I don't have a mould temperature problem these days. I used to cool the moulds by a variety of methods (you WILL over heat multicavity moulds if you are casting as fast as you should). However, some years ago I added a manicurists fan to my set up. It blows down on my mould where I sit it for a few seconds for the sprue to harden. After the mould is up to heat, I turn the fan on and continue to cast. The fan maintains mould temperature and and allows me to continuous cast without temperature issues.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CB posted this 13 May 2012

If you're getting frosting in the middle of the bullet on one side, it's probably where the blocks are cut to allow mounting of the handles. This issue drove me nuts for a while until I figured out what causes it.

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onondaga posted this 13 May 2012

I have 2 lee pots and either melts pure lead just fine.

Don't know who told you 800 is ideal. Temperatures over 750 cause the tin in alloys to instantly oxidize on exposure to air even in your flow stream from pot spot or ladle. that oxidation completely nullifies the purpose of the tin in your alloy. The fill out enhancement from tin in an alloy is completely lost at 800 def. F.

If the metal will pour it is hot enough for casting. Mold temperature is correctly maintained with mold warming and casting cadence. I cast at 600-630 with Lyman #2 and 2 cavity molds but with 6 cavity molds I go to 700.

Gary

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 13 May 2012

onondaga wrote: Don't know who told you 800 is ideal. that oxidation completely nullifies the purpose of the tin in your alloy. The fill out enhancement from tin in an alloy is completely lost at 800 def. F.

If the metal will pour it is hot enough for casting. Mold temperature is correctly maintained with mold warming and casting cadence. The original post said it was recommended that the temperature range was from 700 to 800 degrees.

I have a Lee 4-20 that has trouble with a nice consistant flow unless the pot melt is 775 for WW types of alloys. If I add ingots in too large a quantity, I have to wait for the melt to fully liquify and return to that temp. This is probably exacerbated by the fact that I cast in an unheated shed during the winter months.

In my situation I have an electric heater, an exhaust fan, and a casting furnace. Pick two, you can not run all three at the same time. They are pistol bullets, WW alloy, a perfectly shinny bullet is a random accident. Improving the power to the shed is not an option. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have, not seek the ideal conditions. Duane

Forgot to mention, my thermometer is not calibrated. I just use it the way it came. I realize that those numbers might not be exactly accurate, but given that I cast for 20-30 years without a thermometer, I guess it does not make a heck of a lot of difference and is used just for a reference more than an OC instrument.

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onondaga posted this 13 May 2012

Duane, what I am saying is that 800 Degrees is just wrong. Some people say they cast at 800. If you check their work and check their alloy with a calibrated thermometer you will see that 800 is just wrong and if they are casting at a true 800 degrees they have to be waiting a long time between mold fills or cooling their molds.

Pressure casting can offer a bit of compromise at 800 as it minimizes air contact with the 800 degree alloy but there will be evidence of oxidized tin on the surface of the bullets and fill out will be observed to be less than ideal compared to casting at temperatures that don't instantly oxidize tin upon contact with air.

Their bullets made from a alloy with tin at 800 will exhibit the oxidation and loss of tin from their alloy. You cannot keep Tin from oxidation at 800 unless you work in a vacuum or an inert gas atmosphere. Anybody can deny that and say I am wrong but he will be incorrect and in complete disagreement with metallurgical science and simple observation would reveal the truth of his methods. You can't break the science. You can only appear to make it look wrong with an intentional lie or ignorance of poorly calibrated equipment..

Gary

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 13 May 2012

I guess we are not going to get past 800 degrees are we?

There is what we want, and what we actually have. For whatever reason, if a caster needs to turn up the temp to get a well filled out casting, that is probably what he is going to do. I am NOT argueing that it will result in tin loss. But starting from only one half percent, is it really worth huffing and puffing about? NO.

Am I arguing the science, No. I am saying that to get what I want, sometimes I need to dial up the temp. True, I could toss in more tin for fluidity, and cost, or increase the temp. Sort of simple decision for me. Especially when casting in cooler ambient temps in the winter where the alloy will not flow if the nozzle gets too cold. I think that was the point I was making when I said I tend to use a hotter alloy.

And when casting with lino, I do try to keep the heat lowered. But I am not anal about the temp when casting hundreds of pistol bullets that will just poke holes in paper or cans or sometimes miss completely.

We might be able to agree that our goals will not always be the same when it comes to the quality or quantity of cast bullets. That it depends more upon the purpose of those bullets.

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delmarskid1 posted this 15 May 2012

I used to have trouble with the nozzle on my Lee pot freezing up in cold weather. I took the valve out and opened the hole up a little with a drill. I needed to go in from the inside of the pot and the outside as there is a jog in the channel. Worked great. Lots of flow. I also kept a propane bottle handy to warm the nozzle when things weren't going as fast as I'd like. When that pot dribbled it was a gimme that I would have wrinkled half filled bullets. I cast straight lead at 800 for my longest 45-70 bullets. Works good.

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CB posted this 15 May 2012

I ladle cast at 800 +/-. My bullet weights are more consistent at that level with the non-boutique (scrap) alloys I use, and I don't have a problem with fillout. When the moulds get hotter than I like, I set the moulds on ingots that are at room temperature which function as a heat-sink for me in hot weather.

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Pigslayer posted this 20 May 2012

I made a PID controller for my LEE 10 lb pot. I bought all my components for it on e-bay for under $50.00. I made the project box out of left over 22ga. sheet metal from when I put in a new furnace in my house.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CB posted this 20 May 2012

Nice Job! Where did you get the sheathed TC? That is better than the one I use.. Under 50.00 ??? I paid that much for the Auber Instruments controller and then paid 20 for the SSR. But on second look I used a 40A SSR just to add a bit of CYB incase..

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Pigslayer posted this 20 May 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote: Nice Job! Where did you get the sheathed TC? That is better than the one I use.. Under 50.00 ??? I paid that much for the Auber Instruments controller and then paid 20 for the SSR. But on second look I used a 40A SSR just to add a bit of CYB incase.. Jeff, Thanks for the compliment. I got the thermocouple on e-bay. It's a K type that measures up to 1200 degrees Centigrade. It was under $10.00 shipped. My PID was something like $26.00 shipped. My SSR is a 25A which is more than enough even for the bigger pots. I got it for about $5.00 pp. I also put a single pole/double throw switch in so I can bypass the PID should it fail. I mounted the SSR on a heat sink but I didn't need it. It doesen't even get warm. Maybe It would heat up using a bigger pot. The indicator lights are neon & were about $1.00 each. Auberins is a reliable vendor and have everything you need but I decided to shop hard for my parts on ebay & it paid off. If anyone is in the need I can look up the suppliers for the parts & pass them on.

Pat Reynolds

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CB posted this 20 May 2012

I am looking at building a couple more, one for my home made powder paint oven, one for my lubersizer setup and one for my lube making setup. I have one for my lead pot, did wonders for my bullet weight consistency issues.

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Brodie posted this 20 May 2012

I would love to see a circuit diagram for these controlers. Some of us (me especially) are not to electrically engineer inclined, and would like to have such fine control over the temp. Thanks Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Pigslayer posted this 20 May 2012

Old Coot wrote: I would love to see a circuit diagram for these controlers.Ã‚Â Some of us (me especially) are not to electrically engineer inclined, and would like to have such fine control over the temp. Thanks Brodie It's real simple. Let me see what I can come up with for you.

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CB posted this 21 May 2012

Dont know if this will help you but...

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1kshooter posted this 21 May 2012

6pt-sika wrote: anachronism wrote: milboltnut wrote: So there's no such thing as too cool of a cast which tends to be wrinkled and don't fill out right, or too hot and becomes frosted and break apart? Nobody said that. Wrinkled bullets are usually from a cold mould, or one that has oil in the cavities. Frosted bullets are seen when the mould temps are high. The missing piece here seems to be that mould temperature is important too. Personally, I cast with my alloy at about 800 degrees, and at that temp frosted bullets are pretty common, depending on the mould. Super overheated bullets exhibit heavy frosting, and low resistance when the sprue is cut. I've seen these bullets break apart when dropped from the mould. This is because they're still nearly molten in the middle. If you're encountering this situation, you need to take a break & let the mould cool a bit.

Yep , I have to agree about the “to hot frosted and breaking apart” thing !

I water drop 95% of the bullets I cast and every so often I will find them in the bucket where they started to seperate close to the base .

With my 5 or 6 cavity molds I use just one or two at a time and it seems to work out okay as far as the cooling thing is concerned .

I do the same thing my friend and I got sick of seperating close looking bullets so I use smaller buckets and a couple of them lol...as for the Lee 20lb bottom pour I love it crank it up and with a 6cav mold I dip the corner into the melt untle it no longer sticks to the mold and then I fill one or two cav and dump and add a cav until i get good fill out and then I drop back the temp about 4 clicks to a mark I made that allows me to get good fill out at my spead and still allow me to add lead hear and there to the melt without frosting over the pot!

This is what works for me take from it what you can and I hope that it helps someone here as nuch as you all have helped me ...as a matter of fact I will do a small video or pic slid show of my process and you fine folks can rip it down and tell me all the stuff I am doing wrong?!?!?

Jonathan

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Pigslayer posted this 21 May 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote: Dont know if this will help you but... Yep, that ought to do it!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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John Alexander posted this 22 June 2012

Jeff and Pat,

I've got to have one of these.

The diagram is good. Now will one of you give a little more information for the electrically challenged?

A little help on which PID, SSR , TC etc I should order when I get into Auberins.

I know this is probably a dumb question but would appreciate a little more guidance.

Thanks,

John

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CB posted this 22 June 2012

John You will need a sheathed thermocouple, K Type which I find all over on EBay.

The Auber Inst. PID is of better quality than what else I can find on Ebay, but there are some that spec out identically.

The SSR I would get at least a 30Amp.

All my stuff I got on EBay

I will take a look later and see if I can send you the direct links for what you will need.

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Pigslayer posted this 22 June 2012

John Alexander wrote: Jeff and Pat,

I've got to have one of these.

The diagram is good. Now will one of you give a little more information for the electrically challenged?

A little help on which PID, SSR , TC etc I should order when I get into Auberins.

I know this is probably a dumb question but would appreciate a little more guidance.

Thanks,

John

Let me see what I can dig up on ebay. Between Jeff & I, we can hook you up!!

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Brodie posted this 22 June 2012

I too appreciate the diagram and would very much appreciate more guidance on this type of project. Thanks so much again. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Paul Pollard posted this 23 June 2012

If you get one built with the receptacle for the melting pot, you can always transfer the thermocouple over to the toaster oven. This gives really accurate control for heat treating bullets. Plug the toaster oven into the PID controller. I drilled a hole in the back wall of the toaster oven for the thermocouple. This really cuts down on the wide temperature swings of the original equipment thermostat.

I went down in 5 degree increments from bullet slumping. When the bullets quit sticking together, that's where I set the temperature. Then I got sidetracked on something else and never did run a batch of bullets to try.

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CB posted this 23 June 2012

Here is a link to EBay for a pid controller, SSR and TC

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-F-C-PID-Temperature-Controller-Output-J-S-K-E-TA7-SNR-SSR-25DA-PT100-/140755146526?pt=LHDefaultDomain0&hash=item20c5a9171e

And here is a link to a place that has the connectors, enclosures, power cords etc...

http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php

I made mine so there are connectors for the AC power in, AC Power out and T/C so I can use it for different applications.

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Pigslayer posted this 23 June 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote: Here is a link to EBay for a pid controller, SSR and TC

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Digital-F-C-PID-Temperature-Controller-Output-J-S-K-E-TA7-SNR-SSR-25DA-PT100-/140755146526?pt=LHDefaultDomain0&hash=item20c5a9171e

And here is a link to a place that has the connectors, enclosures, power cords etc...

http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php

I made mine so there are connectors for the AC power in, AC Power out and T/C so I can use it for different applications.

That is a very good deal but the thermocouple's range only goes to 752F (400C). That will probably be good though if he only uses it for bullet casting. Here is ebay item # for one that goes to 1242F: 120931988201. This one has a little longer probe & the probe can be bent. I used the very same PID controller and the same brand SSR on my unit it and they work incredibly well. Great deal!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CB posted this 23 June 2012

For the price you can get another thermocouple and still be under what the PID controller from Auber costs.

This is where I got my TC from

http://stores.ebay.com/rogersdini