NOS 1903 barrel 8-44 found at gun show

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  • Last Post 08 September 2011
Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 03 September 2011

I was at the Concord gun show today and a dealer had 2 NOS (new old stock) 1903 barrels still wrapped in cosmoline and that special paper in a round cardboard mailing tube postmarked 1961. One barrel was dated 5-44 and the other dated 8-44 they have a wood plug on the breach end. He wanted $125 each.

   I decided to splurge and buy one (maybe I should have bought both (?))

Now my delima, I have a Gibbs 03A4 with the Criterian (I think) new barrel. I am trying to decide whether to take my new barrel, which I haven't unwrapped yet (just smelled, I love that smell (it smells like Victory)) and whether to take it to a gunsmith and swap the barrels.

   If I do that, can they be changed back later?  I would love to shoot this in the modified class, since with the Gibbs the rear sight is gone so it couldn't be put back into “as issued” and I do like the looks of the scope. :riflebr:    Also it gives me an excuse to keep looking for an 03A3 to go with my 1917 and Sporter 1917.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 03 September 2011

You really should have bought both.

Thirty years ago I bought from Numrich a  new , in cosmolene two groove barrel for my pitted 03A3 ,It was all legal and simple , in those days.

I used to merrily shoot cast bullets , from prone , at 200 meters.

To day they shoot from a rest ,with plastic ratguns and costly rifles I do not like,I love only wood & steel.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 03 September 2011

I realized that I should have bought both, but it is a hour and a half drive up there to the show. I found out a friend is driving up there for breakfast tomorrow ( an hour and a half each way) and gave him the money and told him that if the dealer still has the barrel to buy it for me

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madsenshooter posted this 04 September 2011

Well Ben, if you can't get them to change the rules, make the rifle conform, that's the way to do it! Buffalo George, maybe you should take a look at what my rat gun will do:  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121224>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121224

It's still a work in progress and I know it will get better with a better fitting bullet. It's the future gents, the CBA needs to have rules in place when that time comes.  I also have a .223 that will make Hunter class!

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billwnr posted this 04 September 2011

the action also needs to be surplus.

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madsenshooter posted this 04 September 2011

If I recall correctly, Gibbs made these up out of drill rifles. They are not newly made receivers.  Well, I partially recalled correctly:

The Gibbs M1903A4 is built using original Remington-made World War II M1903A3 actions and turned-down bolts, which Gibbs obtained large quantities of when it purchase the rifle division of Parker-Hale in the 1990's. Gibbs then utilizes new-made 4-groove barrels made identical to the originals. Each receiver is carefully drilled and tapped using replicas of the original “Redfield” rings and mounts and an exact copy of the M73B1 scope, used on the 1st model M1903A4's. Each barreled action has the original military parkerized finish with polished blue stock furniture, again, identical to the originals. Therefore Ben, let no nit-picker give you a hard time about the rules, you'll be in there!  And if anyone does, just call for Hoss, he'll take care of it.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 04 September 2011

I owned two Colt AR15,studied both Bob Zemanek's books,the guns were very accurate,the most accurate military rifles I ever had.

I do not like them,nor the AK 47,and dislike all the plastic,hand drill rifles that evreybody has at my club.

I tolerate a heckler & koch 45 USC carbine, a Ruger carbine in 9x21,and love passionately old US GI  rifles and other wood and steel rifles old miltary hardware and Marlin leverguns.

Incidentally,I have a Thompson Center contender carbine in 223,I am shooting with cast bullets. It is not the caliber I dislike, it may be the noise that comes from the hollow plastic stocks, they do not make the music of of a cycling M1 or M14.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 04 September 2011

madsenshooter and billwnr, Yup, the action is surplus, it is a Remington, the difference from the A4 is that the name and serial number is right on top since it is actually a USGI 1903A3 as opposed to the name and number being canted to be able to be read when the scope mount is on the gun. They have CMP GI type C stocks and the NEW MADE Criterion barrel. I will replace the barrel with the NOS USGI Remington 1903 barrel (with flaming bomb) and it become legal for Modified class. If it still had the orignal rear sights and I would pick up a USGI stock at a show it would be legal for “as issued” but I like the “sniper” version!

At first I had complained about not being able to use it as Gibbs made it since the barrel is built to exact USGI specs, and I had never noticed any 03 barrels for sale. Of course I hadn't looked either. The first show I go to I find 2 of them!

I have to agree with the nitpickers that we don't want an equipment race in the military classes and if I can find a barrel then they are out there! again to the nitpickers, I don't know of any USGI that are serial numbered to the gun (to my knowledge) and if you ever saw pictures of the buckets of barrels and piles of actions during WWII that were reassembled and put back on the line, I would have to say that to find a rifle with a barrel the is original to the rifle is the exception rather than the norm IMHO.

I am going to benchmark the Gibbs with the Criterian barrel and keep the targets and the same with the USGI barrel so I can compare the groups.

Do you guys see any reason an original receiver and barrel both USGI wouldn't be legal for the Military class

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PETE posted this 04 September 2011

Ben,

I had this same question a while back. The answer was that if you were going to replace the barrel for the all mil. class it had to be an original GI surplus. Criterion barrels or any other make but GI were not allowed in that class.

If that's wrong I hope someone corrects me as I've been looking for a mil. spec. barrel for my Garand ever since.

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 04 September 2011

Pete, Yes that is my understanding as well, it has to be a USGI (United States Government Issue). I just joined CBA and haven't shot in a match yet but started looking for a barrel, and was lucky to find one at the first show of the fall.

I don't know if it is 2 or 4 band. I wonder how well a unused surplus barrel will shoot?

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 04 September 2011

I just heard from my buddy who went by the show for me, the barrel was still sitting there, he bought it for me. The dealer said he has had those barrels for 25 years and sold the 2 in one show.

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PETE posted this 04 September 2011

Ben,

Whenever you get one of those barrels installed you'll have to let us know how they shoot being war time production too I imagine it'll be a two groove which from the talk on here is supposed to be better than a 4 groove.

Both my Springfield '03 and Garand are 4 groove so can't give any comments on a 2 groove other than to say the '03 won me the issue/score Postal a few years back, so guess they're not all that bad either.

Pete

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billwnr posted this 04 September 2011

The NOS barrels are short chambered so make sure your installing gunsmith can finish the chamber.

2 grooves shoot quite well....4 grooves too.

Madsenshooter, if you were a CBA member you'd understand why rules need to be followed. You should consider joining and trying “formal” (as much as the CBA is) shooting.

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PETE posted this 05 September 2011

billwnr,

You bring up a point I've been wondering about. As you mention I'd imagine a NIB barrel would be short chambered, but I've been told that guns brought in from the battlefield, stripped and reassembled, would have a full chamber since they were just basically “parts” guns. Then the problem becomes finding a bolt, especially in the Garand, that would give you the proper headspace.

Not sure if this applies to Springfields, or Carbines, altho my Carbine was an all Win. marked gun that shot very poorly so got another NIB barrel and just put it on with no problems. Not sure if I lucked out there or that's the way they were built. Same idea applies to the Springfields.

Chances are that Ben's barrels are NIB but you never know. You cn see a lot of scenarios saying they were just inspected and cosmolined and put up for sale after the war. Will be interesting to here his report.

Pete

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RicinYakima posted this 05 September 2011

Pete,

Having played with Springfields for 40+ years, my experience is that new assembled rifles and spare parts were exceptionally well gauged. All of the casehardened parts, actions and bolts have very little wear from usage (but not from Bubba) and have good interchangeability. The only exception to this are the nickel steel parts. Those were the most popular and known safe, so where commonly used when someone wanted to hot rod their loads. Here you can find bolts and actions that have set back locking surfaces from excessive pressure loads.

Having done a lot of these 03A3 actions and NIW barrels, the average amount you have to increase the headspace is probably about 0.005” to close on a “go” gauge. The only problem with head-spacing that I can see is if they welded on the face of the receiver and then ground the face. But even then, that should be fixable in a lathe in less than an hour.

Good shooting in the CBA matches with your restored rifle, SASS!

Ric

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billwnr posted this 05 September 2011

There's two issues with the 2 groove barrels as they were made in wartime and average rifling time took only 3 minutes. I'd expect the chambering and threading were also quickly done but not even close to as fast.

Here's the issue: I've inspected a couple of 2 groove barrels and haven't found one yet that was machined on center. The chambers are a few thousandths off center. While this does not impact the accuracy of the rifle it does affect the final full length chambering. Most of the current day reamers are piloted reamers and probably won't fit into an offcenter chamber. A person would need to find an old style reamer, or cut the pilot end off of a new reamer or.... as Dollar Bill did find a pull thru finish reamer to use.

I am currently shooting a “30/05” as I elected to cut the end off of a sizing die to make things fit. Still haven't found a pull thru or a non-piloted reamer for use.

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RicinYakima posted this 05 September 2011

Bill,

The other option is to use a piloted 30/06 SAMMI reamer with a 7MM pilot on the end. The reamer then uses the existing chamber to center and will continue the cut.

HTH, Ric

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muley posted this 05 September 2011

s.a.s.s     if u will be looking for more 03a3 barrels, go to ww.sarcoinc.com they have 2 and 4 groove barrels

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madsenshooter posted this 06 September 2011

"Madsenshooter, if you were a CBA member you'd understand why rules need to be followed. You should consider joining and trying “formal” (as much as the CBA is) shooting."

billwnr, although Jeff still hasn't updated things to the left of my comments, I am a CBA member, one that'd like to see a few changes in the not too distant future. I think it's not a good thing when a fellow spends $995 for a rifle, then has to spend more in order to compete in the class he wants to. Heck, he's even gonna use the 2.5X scope! Wouldn't bother me one bit if someone with a Criterion barreled Krag outscored me when I was shooting my original barreled one, chances are, it wasn't the barrel that made the diff anyway! When we gonna start an AR class? Small, medium, and big bore? It's something we'll need in the future.

Oh, I was right above after all, they were made from drill rifles:  http://www.gibbsrifle.com/files/val_message.pdf>http://www.gibbsrifle.com/files/valmessage.pdf

Bet that was a profitable endeavor!

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 08 September 2011

Mine is definitely a drill rifle, it has the marks where they ground off the welding on the mag cutoff. The one I got was used and had the Weaver 330 and an M84 repro. The M84 goes for around 300 as a repro from what I have seen. The whole setup was $1000 with the 2 scopes. I am getting almost the exact same groups as my 1917 Sporter (with issue barrel) at 100 yards, about 1 1/2 to 2 inches with CMP Lake City Surplus ammo. I want to be sure that I can put the Criterion barrel back on if I want, so will find a smith who can do the job so that will work, working on the barrel not the receiver. Since if it shoots worse I may want to go back. The local club that does CBA stuff, Woburn Sportsmans in Mass, has said they don't care what gun you use, just come and shoot, but I want to do Postal Matches and also what if I set a record using a non-issue barrel at the club, it wouldn't count!

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