Round ball and Minie ball dia

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  • Last Post 17 June 2012
Michael K posted this 04 October 2011

Trying to help a buddy out here and my knowledge on muzzle loading is rather limited, I am familiar with the basics but beyond that, it is lacking to say the least. Carl recently picked a .50 cal muzzle loader at a yard sale. The only thing stamped on the barrel to the left of the rear sight is “50 Cal". There are no other markings as to the make. What size dia round balls and minie balls should he get/use? I have some .495 RBs and some minie balls that mic out at .456-.457 floating around that I will give him if they will work. I am thinking that the .495 RBs may be too big and he will need to go with .490 in order to have enough room for the patch. As far as the minie balls, they do have shallow hollow base about 1/4” deep. .045” seems like a lot to bump up upon firing, but then putting one down a fouled barrel, they may be the correct dia. As I said, muzzleloading is not my forte. Loading, making it go bang, and hitting the paper target 25-50yds out is about all he and his boys will ever use it for. When I was over at his place this afternoon he had a batch of WW he was wanting to get a mould for and cast up. When I told him WWs will work in a pinch, but straight lead will be better, he gave me a puzzled look and I almost lost him with the answer. Don't worry, he does know how to shoot, quite well in fact. He just couldn't pass up a $50.00 muzzleloader... Appreciate whatever info you may have that I can pass along. Many thanks. Michael. I appreciate any suggestions

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tturner53 posted this 04 October 2011

Hi Michael, is it an old style percussion gun? What kind of shape is it in? I have a few old Hawkens, .50s, .495 round balls are fine if the patch isn't too thick. It comes in different thicknesses and then there's home grown patch material too. FIRST, pop some caps on it with no charge pointing it at the ground to see if it's clear. If it is the cap will blow dust on the ground when fired. .495s and a tight patch are harder to start/load but will be more accurate. .490 will be fine for plinking and easier to load. With origin unknown go slow and light, see if it's fit to shoot. Regardless you'll have to wipe between shots or you'll surely get a ball stuck halfway down that won't go no further! That's another topic, but don't try to shoot it out if that happens, gotta pull it with a ball puller. If you can produce a picture of the gun that would be interesting. We all love a good yardsale bargain story.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 04 October 2011

30 years ago,I had a IAB of Marcheno ,Italian replica ,Purdey was its name ,50 caliber ,it shot various diameter balls from 490 to 498,of course with different patches, I used Lee 50 miniè bullets.

I shot decent groups at fifty meters,but was bored by the chores of cleaning and washing the black powder residue,I am lazy.I almost never clean the bores of my smokeless cast bullet rifles and the 22 lrtoo.

I clean with a brush the chambers of the autopistols and of my hunting rifles,just to have easy feeding.

Front loading guns and black powder cartridge shooting is very nice and romantic,but the cleaning is a pain for me.

It's quite like the fact that having enjoyed your time wih a gal , after  the sweet times you have to marry her,and put a master  in your own house.

My wife studied French at school ,she cannot read English.

 

 

 

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Michael K posted this 04 October 2011

Hi Tim, The rifle is of modern manufacture, definitely not an antique. The barrel, hammer, and trigger guard are unblued and there are some spots of minor surface rust, by the looks of it, likely from handling and not wipping down. In thinking about it further, it could possibly be a kit gun. Any words of wisdom regarding the minie balls? Have you shoot any of the bullets Roberta brought up thru the 32HR yet?

Giorgio, Thanks for the info. While I do not own any muzzleloaders, I'll take cleaing a BPCR any day over smokeless with jacketed bullets. Most of the time 3-4 wet patches is all it takes. Cleaning cases is another story, in the end the nostalgia makes it all worth while.

Thanks again guys.

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oscarflytyer posted this 05 October 2011

I am going thru a very similar learning curve with a $100 used TC.  I think the bbl was somewhat neglected and going to try some light polishing.  Whole 'nother story.

As far as shooting, I had an NRA master instructor get my son and I started.  He recommended FFg Elephant blackpowder.  For target use at 25 yds, my son's rifle will shoot the thin patches impregnated with Bore Butter and a .490 ball.  Mine WON'T!  Mine shoots these like buckshot at 25 yds.

I worked with mine.  What I found was that mine would shoot the RB .490 very well with both 50 and 60 grns of FFg as long as I used pillow ticking patch.  It is nearly twice as thick as the patches that work with my son's rifle.  His likes the .490 and ~.010 thickness patches.  Mine has to have ~.020 pillow ticking patches with the .490 RB.

I bought some .495 RBs to try with the thinner patches.  Also going to do the light bore hand lapping to see if I can smooth it up a bit and reduce fouling (mine fouls very bad very quickly).

Bottom line, you have to work up loads for the particular rifle just like metallic cartridges.  Diff rifles like diff ball/patch combos.  That is half the fun of it!  Hope this helps.

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tturner53 posted this 05 October 2011

My old Lyman Black Powder Handbook shows 50 gr./fff as a starting load across the board in a .50 muzzle loader, whether round balls or conicals. That's where I'd start, maybe work up a little to find sweet spot. With 2f or a bp substitute I'd start about 60 grs. These will be mild loads, good for plinking, low pressure. I'm assuming it's a sidelock then, could be mixmaster parts gun, or a cheap kit from Spain or Italy. Usually there's proof marks on the barrels somewhere. I have an old CVA .50 that's target grade, it was a inexpensive gun. I've had to pull my horns in and shelve several ongoing cb projects, spreading myself too thin. Most of the handgun projects are on hold while I focus on competition I've committed to. Like Giorgio my master is determined to keep me busy and she does read English. Honey, your dog is an idiot. It eats stray brass and wheel weights! I've secured the wws, even I wouldn't let a dumb dog eat lead.

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Maven posted this 05 October 2011

B & B, The 50gr. (by VOLUME) starting charge of FFg black powder or Pyrodex RS, which tturner recommended is an excellent one.  If the barrel has been neglected, you'll need to remove the nipple and thoroughly clean it and the bore before firing it.  Make sure you remove all cleaning agents from each before loading and firing the piece. 

First, the Minie balls you mentioned are too small for your .50cal. bbl. whose twist rate is at this point unknown.  If it's 1:48 or faster you may be able to use them IF you paper patch them to fit.  If not, melt them down or trade them off.  Second, you'll want to change 1 variable at a time with the roundballs and the patches they require.  You'll want pillow tick patches that compress to .016"  or possibly .018” to start with.  You'll also want to try these combinations:

.490” RB  + .016” (compressed) patches v. .495” RB + .016” patches (powder charge is 50gr. FFg by volume)

.490” RB + .018” (compressed) patches v. .495” RB + .018” patches (same 50gr. powder charge). 

You'll find one of these combinations will be both accurate and easy to start in the muzzle (need a short starter for this) and seat atop the powder charge (may want to purchase a range rod for this).  Btw, if the .495” RB is difficult to start and ram home with either patch thickness, go to .014” pillow tick.  Moreover, if you're inclined to do things yourself, bring your micrometer to your favorite fabric store and measure the thickness of the various bolts of pillow tick they stock and cut your own patches, which don't have to be cut at the muzzle or round but just large enough to cover the ball.  If you don't have a well stocked muzzle loading store near you, try Track of the Wolf for RB's, patches, patch lubes*, short starteres, range rods, etc.  

*If you're going to load, fire, reload, etc.at the range and in temps. above freezing, spit works very well.  You may also find your rifle shoots better if you dry the bore with a dry flannel cleaning patch after loading, but before capping it when using a spit patch.

 

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Michael K posted this 05 October 2011

Hi Maven. Many thanks for the info, I will print out your's and the bits of wisdom others have provided and pass along.
All the best, Michael.

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Michael K posted this 06 October 2011

Tim. Thanks for the info. I did not get much of a chance to really look it over well and check out the bore, hopefully it won't be too bad. It is side lock, percusion, .50 cal., wood stock, no front sight, surface rust on the barrel. As you menitioned, likely from across the eastern pond. I have some FFg that I use in BPCR and some bore butter that I'll give him along with the RBs to get him started. When something shoots like crap, you now have the perfect excuse, the dog must of gotten into the brass....

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Pigslayer posted this 16 June 2012

I'm shooting a patched roundball in a .50 cal. flint. I use a .490 ball & a .018 patch w/80 grs. FFG powder. I just switched from .010 patch to the .018 and with that my group went from 2+” to 1 1/4” @ 50 yards. With that load the ball is moving at about 1800 FPS. The picture attached only shows two shots as I forgot my cleaning patches to swab the bore. Without swabbing with alcohol I would have never been able to load another ball. FFG powder seems to make for a lot of fowling. Didn't want to have to remove the breech plug to drive out a stuck ball. In my .45 cal. flint I shoot a .440 ball & a .018 patch and the charge is 60grs. FFFG.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 16 June 2012

Maven wrote: B & B, The 50gr. (by VOLUME) starting charge of FFg black powder or Pyrodex RS, which tturner recommended is an excellent one.  If the barrel has been neglected, you'll need to remove the nipple and thoroughly clean it and the bore before firing it.  Make sure you remove all cleaning agents from each before loading and firing the piece. 

First, the Minie balls you mentioned are too small for your .50cal. bbl. whose twist rate is at this point unknown.  If it's 1:48 or faster you may be able to use them IF you paper patch them to fit.  If not, melt them down or trade them off.  Second, you'll want to change 1 variable at a time with the roundballs and the patches they require.  You'll want pillow tick patches that compress to .016"  or possibly .018” to start with.  You'll also want to try these combinations:

.490” RB  + .016” (compressed) patches v. .495” RB + .016” patches (powder charge is 50gr. FFg by volume)

.490” RB + .018” (compressed) patches v. .495” RB + .018” patches (same 50gr. powder charge). 

You'll find one of these combinations will be both accurate and easy to start in the muzzle (need a short starter for this) and seat atop the powder charge (may want to purchase a range rod for this).  Btw, if the .495” RB is difficult to start and ram home with either patch thickness, go to .014” pillow tick.  Moreover, if you're inclined to do things yourself, bring your micrometer to your favorite fabric store and measure the thickness of the various bolts of pillow tick they stock and cut your own patches, which don't have to be cut at the muzzle or round but just large enough to cover the ball.  If you don't have a well stocked muzzle loading store near you, try Track of the Wolf for RB's, patches, patch lubes*, short starteres, range rods, etc.  

*If you're going to load, fire, reload, etc.at the range and in temps. above freezing, spit works very well.  You may also find your rifle shoots better if you dry the bore with a dry flannel cleaning patch after loading, but before capping it when using a spit patch.

Simply on a whim I bought some “Old Zip Patch Grease” from Dixie Gun Works. It's made with Mutton Tallow & I find that it puts “Bore butter” to shame. Track Of The Wolf has about any thickness patch that one would need.

Pat Reynolds

 

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Maven posted this 17 June 2012

Pat, When my suddenly busy schedule has allowed, I've experimented with “Stumpy's Moose Snot,” a homebrewed concoction.  (No S & H fees!)  The beauty of it is you can adjust the proportions, and even the oil (I used olive oil instead of castor oil.)  to suit.  I take a roll of patch material (pillow tick) and rub Stumpy's on both sides with my fingers and  then put it in the nuke for about 30sec. on high to saturate them.  When cool, cut them into individual patches or cut them at the muzzle if you prefer.  A few weeks ago, I shot a 25 round woods walk using  Stumpy's lube, wiping the bore occasionally with a dry flannel patch and had no problems with difficult loading or inaccuracy.

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Pigslayer posted this 17 June 2012

Maven wrote: Pat, When my suddenly busy schedule has allowed, I've experimented with “Stumpy's Moose Snot,” a homebrewed concoction.  (No S & H fees!)  The beauty of it is you can adjust the proportions, and even the oil (I used olive oil instead of castor oil.)  to suit.  I take a roll of patch material (pillow tick) and rub Stumpy's on both sides with my fingers and  then put it in the nuke for about 30sec. on high to saturate them.  When cool, cut them into individual patches or cut them at the muzzle if you prefer.  A few weeks ago, I shot a 25 round woods walk using  Stumpy's lube, wiping the bore occasionally with a dry flannel patch and had no problems with difficult loading or inaccuracy. Thanks for the info. It seems I've heard of that concoction somewhere else and it was reccommended. When I run out of “Old Zip Patch Grease” I may try it. I have two 4oz. tubs of Old Zip right now and it does in fact work well. My flinters used to load fairly easy until I went to a tighter patch but the tighter patch is worth it due to the tighter group. JeffNZ suggested running a dry patch on my jag as I was seating the ball, that way it would dry the bore and may give an even tighter group. Wanted to go back out to the range today but my yard looks like the Amazon Rain Forest so there is much to do here.

Pat R

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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