Army & Navy Cooperative Society Rook Rifle

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  • Last Post 21 January 2012
Ed Harris posted this 21 October 2011

Recently received this rifle back from John Taylor. Original iron sights regulated for the blackpowder .255 Rook cartridge shot to point of aim at 50 yards with PMC 98-gr. LRN .32 S&W Long ammo. Point of impact with the other two sight leaves shooting at 50 yards is shown. Average of five consecutive 5-shot groups at 50 yards with 6X Unertl small game scope was 1.4 inches with smallest group 0.9” and largest 1.75".

Next outing I will shoot handloads with Saeco #322 seated out to engrave rifling upon chambering, with 2 grs. of Bullseye and similar load with RCBS .310 Cadet heeled bullet. Stay tuned.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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6pt-sika posted this 21 October 2011

If you happen to have one and don't mind , post a pic of the rifle with the Unertl on top please !

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6pt-sika posted this 21 October 2011

I'm just curiouse whats the average worth of one of these little rifles in unaltered condition ?

 

I've never owned one , but have been quite intrested several times .

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72coupe posted this 21 October 2011

You get to play with all the neat stuff. Color me jealous.

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Ed Harris posted this 22 October 2011

6pt-sika wrote: post a pic of the rifle with the Unertl on top please !

Here it is.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 22 October 2011

6pt-sika wrote: ...whats the average worth of one of these little rifles in unaltered condition ?

In early 1980s could get for a few hundred $, which this one was. Now one with nice exterior, not butchered,but pitted bore, suitable for relining brings about $1000 US

Plan to ship mine to a London trained UK expat gunsmith kin in CT to finish a full restoration of wood, metal, etc. One of those things that if you must ask what it costs, you cannot afford it. Going to take some of my retirement money and just do it, because when this guy goes to his reward would be impossible to have done at any cost.... Am determined that my heirs will inherit nice guns.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 22 October 2011

Ed,

I really understand you attitude. We all have a finite time in this life. The rifle you pass on can live for several more generations and bring pleasure to the hearts of your heirs. Good for you!

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 25 October 2011

Here are 50-yd. targets shot with 6x Unertl from sandbags. Like RCBS 120-gr. Cadet heeled bullet, front end engraves like Eley Tenex when you close action. Saeco #322 seated out in top lube groove, also with 2 grs. Bullseye nearly as good, under 1-1/2” avg. at 50 yds. is good for “pistol and revolver” ammo.

Next to send to Lucas in CT for cosmetic wood restoration, new hinge pin, fit and adjust action, re-case color, rust blue, etc. This completes the “before” pics, will be PRETTY next time you see it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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gregg posted this 25 October 2011

Ed Harris wrote: . because when this guy goes to his reward would be impossible to have done at any cost.... Am determined that my heirs will inherit nice guns.

Ed what a wonderful rifle.

If there not powder and lead there not sure I want to go?:thinking:

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Ed Harris posted this 26 October 2011

And it is verrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyy quiieeeeeet! so as not to scare the bunny weabbits!

Bullets whacking the cardboard target backer make more noise than the rifle going off.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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6pt-sika posted this 26 October 2011

Do you think the action and barrel on that little rifle would be strong enough to run the chamber out to 32 H&R MAG or 327 Federal ?

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Ed Harris posted this 27 October 2011

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73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 27 October 2011

Ed Harris wrote: 6pt-sika wrote: Do you think the action and barrel on that little rifle would be strong enough to run the chamber out to 32 H&R MAG or 327 Federal ?

You could go .32 H&R Magnum to use that brass, but ONLY if you didn't exceed factory pressures, and used full 20-22,000 psi loads only occasionally, in limited quantity. You want to avoid shooting the old gun loose and having to explain to the gunsmith how stupid you are when you ask him to tighten it up again. You only get away with that once. 8-)

I intend to keep most of my loads below 14,000 psi, using 2 grains of Bullseye with bullets seated out to fit. For hunting purposes may try a few approaching H&R Magnum pressures, 2.5 to 3 grs. of Bullseye with #3118 cast HP seated out to 1.30” overall length to engrave upon breech closure, but stealth and low noise is the objective, to avoid disturbing the neighbors. Any loads which CRACK~! defeat the purpose.

Factory 98-gr. lead RN ammo for the .32 S&W long is pleasant and accurate like standard velocity .22 LR. Fiocchi wadcutters are almost entirely silent, like CB longs. My normal cast bullet revolver loads shoot better than I can hold with the simple open sights, around 2 inches at 50 yards. While I will not have Lucas fill the scope block holes, the Unertl small game scope is mostly for load development. The joy of a light walking gun is that it carries like a fly rod or walking stick in your hand, being only 4-1/2 pounds. It exemplifies clean, naked simplcity, being elegant while throughly utilitarian is the joy of it all. Post cataract surgery with new lens implant I am enjoying iron sights again and savor each opportunity.

While the modern steel liner will hold higher pressure than original blackpowder loads, you still have small locking surfaces and a mild, plain carbon steel action of metalllurgy ca. 1880.

The .327 Federal, absolutely not!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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72coupe posted this 27 October 2011

I think the limitations of a black powder action is part of the fun of loading for it. It is challenging after all.

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tturner53 posted this 28 October 2011

That's nice but it'd look better if you put a picaniny rail on everywhere and mounted a laser. Maybe a old Cadillac headlight. Oh, and a combo range finder digital movie camera. Did you remove the magazine for those pictures? Oh, and a pistol grip or two. Kinda doll it up a little Ed, as long as you're going to spend some money anyway. I have two just like it, spray painted 'em, one's black as night, the other is camo. Nice.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 October 2011

tturner53 - you forgot the smiley face 8-)

Do have M1913 rail on .30-40 and .44 Mag barrels I had John make for my Beretta M412 folding shotgun/rifle combo. LaRue Tactical mount with Millet DMS scope and XS ghost ring peep as backup irons. Figured that a heavy scope and mount were OK on those two barrels, because recoil in what otherwise would have been a 5 lb., break-open single-shot would have been unpleasant with full hunting loads in those calibers.

But as you know, my taste runs towards the traditional, such as my converted small action (ca. 1920s) H&R Bunny Gun, as close as it gets to tactical are the XS sights and new .38 Special barrel.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 28 October 2011

72coupe wrote: I think the limitations of a black powder action is part of the fun of loading for it. It is challenging after all.

You understand my thought, but getting loads that work is no real challenge. With 16 inch twist, bullet weight is limited to about 120 grains at subsonic velocity. Case capacity is limited. Revolver bullets which work well are NEI #82 in 88-gr. and 115-gr. plainbased versions, the similar Lyman #3118, or #311008 as they call it now, also Saeco #322 and the RCBS 310-120 Cadet heeled bullet.

Lightest charge which gets bullets out the 26 inch barrel every time with good ballistic uniformity, with useful iron sight accuracy and 25 yard point of impact with a normal 50 yard zero is 1 grain of Bullseye. Normal “working load” is 2 grains of Bullseye with any bullet. Maximum I have tried only for “proof” purposes to check primer appearance and extraction was 3 grs. of Bullseye with #3118 HP seated out to 1.30” overall length and jammed into rifling, approximating .32 H&R Magnum pressures. Easy extraction, but standard pistol primers beginning to flatten so no more of those. Working max. is 2.5 grs. of Bullseye or 7 grs. #2400 only occasionally when a supersonic velocity is needed to get good performance with a hollow-point cast bullet for varmints and I don't mind the noise. If I really want CRACK~! I don't have to smoke it, after all, I have a .30-'06!:lovecast:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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72coupe posted this 28 October 2011

Will your powder measure throw 1 grain of Bullseye? The lightest charge mine will throw is 2.1 grains. Its an RCBS Uniflow.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 October 2011

72coupe wrote: Will your powder measure throw 1 grain of Bullseye? The lightest charge mine will throw is 2.1 grains. Its an RCBS Uniflow.

My Culver pistol measure will accurately throw 1 grain of Bullseye to +/- 0.05 grain. Homer has gone to Valhalla AND THERE AREN'T ANY MORE. RCBS little dandy 00 rotor will accurately throw 1.5 to 1.7 depending on your rotor and powder lot.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 28 October 2011

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73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 23 December 2011

New eye candy, got the restored rifle back from Lucas Geiger. Don't ask what it cost. If you find it necessary to ask, then you cannot afford it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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.22-10-45 posted this 24 December 2011

Hello, Ed Harris. I have a soft spot for these rook rifles..not too many seen in my area..and most are worn out. Never owned one..but this may change later in the new year..if owner & I can come to agreement. It is a 297/250..I just picked up a dbl. cavity Lyman 252435, NIB. You can always tell if someons got it bad for a firearm...when they start gathering components BEFORE they even have it! Whatever happened to the proposed new postal rook match? I didn't see anything in the CBA postal rule book that I just recieved? Good luck with that very nice looking rook..& perhaps I too will be able to do a write up on these facinating little rifles.

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Ed Harris posted this 24 December 2011

I think the CBA Board decided that there were already enough postal matches and the director of postal competitions didn't want the additional work. I volunteered to help score the targets and run it, but never heard back.

My suggestion lets play with it here, shoot the NRA Bunny target you can buy from Midway and post photos of your results. I will do so if others will.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 25 December 2011

Ed,

My bunny gun is ready! That would really be a smart thing to do, run it ourselves. It doesn't have to be complicated. Mail the targets to Ed. He scores on the first day of the month for targets received prior. (You shot late? Too bad, have to count for the next match.)

I'll buy coffee for every month's winner that comes to Yakima!!

Ric

p.s. I've gotten pictures to post by just pushing the send button, and walking away from the computer. It seems to load a some point in 5 minutes or so.

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RKing22 posted this 26 December 2011

Mr. Harris , that is a most beautiful rifle. I have wanted one since reading your article in Gun Digest several years ago. I bet it feels wonderful in the hands on a cool november morning!

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72coupe posted this 26 December 2011

That is spectacular. I hope it lives on forever in your family with people that will appreciate it.

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Vassal posted this 27 December 2011

Man that is nice. If I had a gun like that I'd be afraid to shoot it!

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Ed Harris posted this 27 December 2011

Shot the rifle yesterday with the iron sights at 50, 100 and 150 yards. The original open sight leaves regulated for its original .255 chambering shoot on for range using the LBT .312-105FNBB bullet and 2.5 grains of Bullseye, about 1050 f.p.s. With the plain open sights it will shoot a clean score off the bench on the reduced military SR1 bullseye target with a fair X count. It's essentially a 3 m.o.a. rifle with iron sights if your eyeballs are screwed down tight.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 27 December 2011

Ed, A lovely rifle and a good shooter, must be worth keeping.Ric

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Davo posted this 20 January 2012

LUVELY rifle, Sir!!!

I have a very shabby side-lever Rook rifle in .360..Very pitted, sears boogered and action loose. (Odd in that it had no forend wood to begin with, just a real nice dense-grain dark euro walnut straight-gripped buttstock.)

If the action can be tightened-up and the sears re-built, I am going to try to trade for re-bore to a modified choke 2 1/2” .410. Book CLIMBING THE NORTHFACE OF THE .410 has pic of one so converted. (And an awful lot of info. about loading for very small ga. scatter-pieces;)!)

When I am sometimes too shakey and slow to “hold hard” on squirrels with my suppressed Izmash 7-2 .22LR, the realization struck me that I would be pretty well off with a very small ga. shotgun that was light and handy, and not loaded with a charge of shot heavier than 5/8 oz.

Davo

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Ed Harris posted this 21 January 2012

Network lag time dupe deleted, see below:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 21 January 2012

While .410 is an easy do, you might look hard at a slow twist rifled barrel, say 20 inches per turn in .45 Colt or .44-40/.410 which work pretty well.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Davo posted this 21 January 2012

I have messed around with several Paradox-bored barrels in .410/.45 Colt, T/C Contender and NEF rifle,  and 16 ga. (made by back-boring a rifled 20 ga. NEF.) Even wasted alot of time and $ on the lamentable Taurus Judge:X

I just want a very light, very good patterning very small gauge shotgun, with a hammer, good for 25 or 30 yds. :-)

Davo

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RicinYakima posted this 21 January 2012

Davo, You may want to consider looking for an early H&R 410 shotgun. Very resonable in cost and sized for the 410, weights about 4 pounds.

Ed, Found Gerrardstown on the map, looks like a nice area. I have been close to there, but not at that point.

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 21 January 2012

Ric,

If you have Google Maps up, I am on the west slope of North Mountain on top of a bluff over Back Creek, above the bend in the road approaching Glengary, Unincorporated. I am close enough to the Peacemaker National Training Center www.peacemakernational.com that I can hear gunfire coming from the 1000 yard rifle deck.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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raytear posted this 21 January 2012

DAVO,

A couple of years ago Ross Seyfried had an article on making Paradox guns shoot properly. It was in either Rifle or Handloader. If you are interested You might be able to find it by going to the Wolfe Publising Co. website and checking for articles in back issues.  Some of the techniques Seyfried used were rather counter-intuitive, as I recall.

FWIW.

Good shooting! RT

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Davo posted this 21 January 2012

Ed, I have been usign a roudnball roll-crimped into the 16 ga. W/a heavy charge of Hodgdon's ? (Darn mental blocks! :-( A black powder substitute...Not Trail Boss, and certainly NOT corrosive Pyrodex!), some wads and SPG lube it woudl cut 4/4 into the size of a playing card @ 40 yds. and pattern impr. cyl. w/birdshot. Shoots buckshot well, too. Potential all-around gun for AO's w/ thick cover,smallgame plus deer and feral hogs/blackbear (sounds a little like 'heaven' ;-) but the Brenneke slug kind of put the brakes to dragging on Col.Fosbery's very interesting invention, 1st offered to public by H&H in 1885. Davo

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