The LIE of the 3 shot group!

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  • Last Post 03 April 2013
RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2012

OK guys, I am really frosted now, so if you don't want to listen to me on my soap box, move on now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reading my January copy of “Precision Shooting” tonight and believe it or not, one of the writers is shilling the new FN/Winchester bolt gun. So, it and he shoots 6 three shot groups, averages the best three and publishes that as the accuracy of the rifle. “..so a 1/2 inch relates to 2 inches at 400 yards, good enough for hunting".  BS!

So lets go to the “one shot group". A white bulls-eye of 0.01” in a black circle of 1.5". Shoot only one shot at the target. With Wally Enga's computer program, measure the distance from the bulls-eye to the closest edge of the bullet hole. If the bullet hole pushes out the white bulls-eye, it is a perfect shot (you can hit a fly's butt at 1250 yards cause you can't miss). Now you get 20 shots to get a perfect for every box of ammo you write about. If you miss the white bulls-eye, the computer program will measure to the closest edge. Now you can take the three best shots from the box, divide by three and get your string measure for group. Records will fall!

Now I feel better!

 

Ric

 

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LWesthoff posted this 03 January 2012

I think it was Ed Harris who said “There are no lucky 10 shot groups.” I also read - somewhere - that ballistics experts with some ammo company had concluded that they had to shoot groups of at least 7 shots to properly evaluate any lot of ammo. My own much more limited experience says it takes me several 10 shot groups to properly compare loads.

Three shot groups are BS; nothing more!

My personal opinion - but I'm going to stick with it 'til somebody proves me wrong.

Wes

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6pt-sika posted this 03 January 2012

LWesthoff wrote: Three shot groups are BS; nothing more!

My personal opinion - but I'm going to stick with it 'til somebody proves me wrong.

Wes

You know what , I don't care what others think !

I shoot 3 shot groups period . How many times with a hunting rifle am I gonna shoot more then 3 times in fairly quick succesion ?

I took a Ruger #1V with a Lilja 22-250AI barrel on it this past summer and shot the smallest 3 shot group I've ever shot and probably ever will shoot . Fluke sure it most likely was . But it measured .054” after subtracting the bullet diameter .

 

So do what ya want because you know what , I sure am !

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tturner53 posted this 03 January 2012

Sounds like the author went overboard when it wasn't necessary. Just based on your description of the article it sounds like the rifle is accurate alright but why gild the lily? For me 3 shot groups are important if I'm shooting a hunting rifle. If it takes more than three shots something is really wrong. I pay most attention to where the first shot from a cold fouled barrel goes. Different purposes, different standards. I suppose it would be logical to fire a ten shot group with a long cooling period in between shots to check the consistency of the 'first shot'. I was a big game hunter long before I got interested in bench or competitive shooting, probably affects my thinking.

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billwnr posted this 03 January 2012

Maybe we should petition the Competitions Committee to have a category for three shot groups.

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tturner53 posted this 03 January 2012

There you go. But why stop there? How about a 1 shot match? Cold barrel, not fired for at least previous 60 min., no bench, any field position, 200 yds. Measure distance from center of X to center of bullet hole.  My point is our(the CBA) standards of accuracy are specialised and not the only valid or relevant ones. Still, throwing out unwanted results such as in the article is ridiculous. I'll stop now before I get kicked out of the CBA.;)

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LWesthoff posted this 03 January 2012

O.K. I'm going to back up a little, here, because I was talking about determining how CONSISTENTLY accurate a rifle is. For a hunting rifle, first shot cold barrel placement, if consistent, is important....but I'll still feel better about the rifle and load if the second - and subsequent - shots go pretty much where the first one went.

If you shoot ten three shot groups and they all cluster around the same aiming point, you've shot a mighty impressive thirty shot group. But if 9 of those groups are kind of scattered around, and you happen to wobble one group into a nice tight little cluster - that group is really only useful to help you sell the rifle. Which is what too many of those gunzine gurus are doing, in my opinion.

Wes

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Tom Acheson posted this 03 January 2012

Was at a CBA BR match 6-7 years ago. A shooter who produced a really nice 10-shot group was heard to say that he was just lucky. An older, more senior BR shooter said that is is much more difficult to shoot a good 10-shot group than a 5-shot group.

He went on to say if you were put into a swivel chair with your gun, and were spun around and had to shoot a round each time you came to the position where you could see the wall in front of you where a target was placed and after you were done spinning and had fired 10 shots, if you then had a small group, that would have been luck in play. His point was that it takes a lot of shooting skill to shoot a good 10-shot group and not spoil a nice 5-round group by adding 5 more shots to the group.

Tom

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6pt-sika posted this 03 January 2012

tturner53 wrote:   My point is our(the CBA) standards of accuracy are specialised and not the only valid or relevant ones. Still, throwing out unwanted results such as in the article is ridiculous. I'll stop now before I get kicked out of the CBA.;)

Other then some sort of registered competition , “valid” is what a person deems it .

 

Three shot groups are valid to me for what I do . Yet they may not be valid to someone else . And thats okay it's like anything else it's all relative !

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RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2012

6pt,

That is my point. A “precision” one shot group makes the bullet strike the point the firer wants, as opposed to “accurate” group that rifle will place its bullets in the same spot.

Like Tim, for a hunter, one could shoot one shot from a clean cold barrel every morning for a week. That is a precision group, how reliable can the shooter / rifle combination hit a mark.

Benchrest shooting is about the rifle / ammo combination, otherwise we would all “stand on our hind legs and shoot like a man."

Ric

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

RicinYakima wrote: Benchrest shooting is about the rifle / ammo combination, otherwise we would all “stand on our hind legs and shoot like a man."

Ric

Hells bells , I shoot my hunting rifle's from the bench for 3 shot groups just like the  benchrest boys . But then when I hunt I'm mostly sitting and shooting from a rest as well ;)

 

Benchrest has a bit to do with the shooter as well . We've had an over run of folks at our club getting 6.5 Creedmoor's to shoot in an event we have called “Prarie Dog Shoots” you shoot for score on animal targets at 100 , 200 and 300 yards . Anyway a couple sets of fellows have been working as teams with a rifle between them . And typically one guy will shoot the same rifle a good deal better then his partner with the same load etc . I am saying to guys use the same rifle and of course load . Anyway from my perspective shooting benchrest has a learning curve for the shooter just as any other shooting activity .

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

While this has nothing to do with the topic at hand I gotta say . In the past I shot skeet , trap , sporting clays and PPC in competition ALOT . At the time I also hunted ALOT , but only with jacketed bullets and bolt action rifles .

And while I still like to shoot skeet , trap and sporting clays a fair amount as well as hunt with the same jacketed bullet bolt action and single shot rifles .

I've found casting , loading and shooting from the bench and hunting with my lever guns to be alot more relaxing and downright better for MY whole disposition .

While I've not been to but a couple benchrest competitions and as an observer only . Those folks seemed to be very pleasent and hospitable . When I shot skeet and trap competitively the whole outlook of myself and the people on the same level as myself couldn't always be called hospitable or friendly . We had all gotten to the point where you were exoected to be in contention every week . And to be totally honest I'm not totally happy with the kind of person that made me seem to be .

 

The cast bullet laid back shooting at our club is alot more compatible with “calm and pleasent"   :dude::dude::dude:

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argie1891 posted this 04 January 2012

you just dont understand i shoot better 3 shot groups than i do 5 or 10 shot groups. 3 shot groups make better wallet groups. you know the one in a hundred you can pull out and show your buddie, or the guy at the gun store. and to think i have been wasting all that ammo shooting 10 shot groups when 3 will do just as well. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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72coupe posted this 04 January 2012

Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

72coupe wrote: Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

 

Sorry I couldn't resist that :D

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shastaboat posted this 04 January 2012

OMG! You all are anal!...lol...

Because I said so!

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RicinYakima posted this 04 January 2012

Brent,

Of course I'm anal! I'm working for 0.01” smaller ten shot group averages. I check to see which side of the newspaper is up on the front step in the morning to see if it is a good bullet casting day. Sort through all the grains of SR4759 to discard the lighter grey colored ones. Wipe my primer pockets with a Q-tip before I gauge the flash holes. But I'm not really serious about shooting?

Ric

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argie1891 posted this 04 January 2012

RicinYakima wrote: Brent,

Of course I'm anal! I'm working for 0.01” smaller ten shot group averages. I check to see which side of the newspaper is up on the front step in the morning to see if  

i shoot with ric on a regular basis like almost every week when it is warm enough. he is telling the truth. he dosent weigh charges he counts the grains of 4759, or 2400. he has pretty much changed to 4759 as at his advance age the little grains of 2400 are a bit hard for him to see. that is my story and i am sticking to it. i gota say honestly paying attention to the details makes for shrinking groups. but he and i both think 3 shot groups might be good enough for hunting but take your rifle to a cba match and see what it will really do. it is hard to shoot 10 shots in a row in the 10 ring, i have only done it some of the time. i wish i could do it on demand but i cant. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Uncle Russ posted this 04 January 2012

Just keeping an eye on the previous two posts. They speak the truth. I watch'em both.

Or all three of us are Liars.

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72coupe posted this 04 January 2012

6pt-sika wrote: 72coupe wrote: Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

 

Sorry I couldn't resist that :D Yeah but what kind of groups are they shooting?

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

72coupe wrote: 6pt-sika wrote: 72coupe wrote: Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

 

Sorry I couldn't resist that :D Yeah but what kind of groups are they shooting?  

 

As long as they break targets who gives a ...........

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joeb33050 posted this 04 January 2012

In some sense it doesn't matter how many shots there are in the groups. This because the relationships are mathematical and easily calculated. Thus: 5 shot groups are 1.32 X the size of 3 shot groups 10 shot groups are 1.74 X the size of 3 shot groups 10 shot groups are 1.31 X the size of 5 shot groups EX: if you shoot a zillion 3 and 5 shot groups same load and gun etc, the average 5 shot group size will be 1.32 X the average 3 shot group size. Brent Danielson advocates the 2 shot group for load testing. 3 shot groups are 1.38 X the size of 2 shot groups 5 shot groups are 1.82 X the size of 2 shot groups 10 shot groups are 2.39 X the size of 2 shot groups See Chapter 7 in the book for more. joe b.

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CB posted this 04 January 2012

I agree that for hunting finding where the first shot from a cold barrel is the way to go, but this can't be done with one shot as some of the friends I hunt with think.

To get a fair estimate of the accuracy of a rifle and load the numbers of shots fired, measured, averaged, and adjusted (for number of shots in each group) is more important than whether they are 3,5,10, or 20 shot groups. The more shots the more reliable your estimate.

In other words 7 three shot groups, 4 five shot groups or 2 ten shot groups will give you about equally valid estimates of the accuracy of the load.

Of course the average of the two ten shot groups will be 1.53 times as big as the average of the 7 three shot groups and 1.23 times as big as the average of the 4 five shot groups. (These adjustment factors are strictly statistics and provided by the Am. Rifleman staff. Joe Brennan's latest book has a table for these conversion factors for any number of shot per group for those who insist on reporting 6, 7, or 11 shot groups.)

So if you want to honestly say my rifle will shoot _ sized groups you need fire enough total shots to reduce the chance of luck and of course count every shot. You also need to say how many shots per group you are talking about. Just saying my rifle will average one inch groups is meaningless without knowing the shots per group.

The old saying that there are no lucky ten shot groups sounds good but is BS. You just do have to shoot more groups to find one.

John

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CB posted this 04 January 2012

Opps!

I should have known that Joe would get a post in on this subject while I was thinking one up.

Joe: Any idea why the factors you use are slightly different from the ones I got out of an old American Rifleman?

John

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shastaboat posted this 04 January 2012

Thanks guys, I haven't laughed so hard this early in the morning for a long time.

Because I said so!

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corerf posted this 04 January 2012

Ric,

I never thought of gauging a flash hole.

From my carburetor tuning days, I have a a weber jet gauge and drill set, the full set... The expensive set.

Was just contemplating selling on Ebay as I have no desire to monkey with another VW.

Not hijacking.....

Ric you sure tweaked a few folks with the thread start. Almost like feelers got hurt

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

jalexander wrote: So if you want to honestly say my rifle will shoot _ sized groups you need fire enough total shots to reduce the chance of luck and of course count every shot. You also need to say how many shots per group you are talking about. Just saying my rifle will average one inch groups is meaningless without knowing the shots per group.

 

That isn't totally so , if I or any other based what they thought on what YOU think then maybe so . But since I'm the one doing what I wish to do then the only person's criteria I need to meet is my own .

I am quite sure if I shoot 3 shot groups one of you guys will say you need 5 or 10 or 20 shot groups as has already been stated . But if I went so far as to do that , then I'm quite certain some GOOFBALL would say 20 shots is not enough that you need 50 or 100 . Personally I think ANYTHING past a 5 shot group is pretty  anal retentive .

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Uncle Russ posted this 04 January 2012

Patterns my boy, patterns. And for SKEET shooters the bigger the better!!!!!!!! I know for I am a believer. :cool:

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delmarskid1 posted this 05 January 2012

I shoot what the magazine holds in my hunting rifle. I make three attempts on three different occasions. In my target rifles I use the same system with the difference being that I shoot ten shot groups. If that doesn't work I have been wasting my time for over 25 years.

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argie1891 posted this 05 January 2012

there is a difference between what works and what is correct. if you dont believe that just ask a democrat. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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6pt-sika posted this 05 January 2012

Uncle Russ wrote: Patterns my boy, patterns. And for SKEET shooters the bigger the better!!!!!!!! I know for I am a believer. :cool:

Oh Jesus when one is shooting competitively on the skeet or trap circuit the last thing I ever wanted to do was shoot patterns and check shot density etc ! ESPECIALLY with the 410 !

After looking at the one dimensional picture that thing would put GREMLINS in your head and the next shoot you be second guessing your patterns !

I go along with checking skeet and trap guns for POI or center of pattern . But for God's sake do not start checking quadrants for pattern density .

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joeb33050 posted this 05 January 2012

jalexander wrote: Opps!

I should have known that Joe would get a post in on this subject while I was thinking one up.

Joe: Any idea why the factors you use are slightly different from the ones I got out of an old American Rifleman?

John John; "Group size vs. n, from www.speakeasy.org or www.the-long-family.com Techshooter's Shooting Pages, Chris Long"

From the EXCEL workbook-this is my source for the arithmetic.

The only way I know of to do this is “Monte Carlo Simulation", I don't have a program to do it. I did this using 10,001 results and got numbers close to Chris Long's. Any Monte Carlo simulation results will vary slightly from test to test. It's kind of like rounding errors.

EX: We know that average group size is 1” and S.D. is .15” for a zillion shots,and want to know average group size for 7 shots. There's NO SIMPLE mathematical method of finding the answer. We simulate a lot of 7 shot groups and find the average. Then do it for 2 shots, 3 shots, etc. End up with the table.

I've never had a program to do M.C.S., use the random number feature in EXCEL. joe b.

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CB posted this 05 January 2012

Joe,

I suspect the factors for converting groups that I got from an Am Rifleman probably 40+ years ago (when will I learn to write down the source for things I keep?) are from a rougher estimating method. There isn't much difference anyway but I will assume your and Mr. Long's methods are a bit closer and start using them.

Thanks for the information.

You can lead a horse to water----------

John

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CB posted this 06 January 2012

6pt-sika wrote"

"That isn't totally so , if I or any other based what they thought on what YOU think then maybe so . But since I'm the one doing what I wish to do then the only person's criteria I need to meet is my own ."

I'm sorry if I offended you, I certainly didn't intend to try to tell you what to think. It is a free country and we all can have whatever opinions we want and manage our cast bullet shooting however we want. After all it is a hobby and how we do it isn't important to anybody but us. I have friends who think it only takes one shot to know how their deer rifles are shooting. Since deer are big targets, no harm done.

But there is a difference between opinions and facts, and the two shouldn't be confused.

John

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6pt-sika posted this 06 January 2012

jalexander wrote: 6pt-sika wrote"

"That isn't totally so , if I or any other based what they thought on what YOU think then maybe so . But since I'm the one doing what I wish to do then the only person's criteria I need to meet is my own ."

I'm sorry if I offended you, I certainly didn't intend to try to tell you what to think. It is a free country and we all can have whatever opinions we want and manage our cast bullet shooting however we want. After all it is a hobby and how we do it isn't important to anybody but us. I have friends who think it only takes one shot to know how their deer rifles are shooting. Since deer are big targets, no harm done.

But there is a difference between opinions and facts, and the two shouldn't be confused.

John

You didn't offend me at all !

And I'm glad you came to the conclusion that what I say ARE facts and what you say ARE opinions LOL's !

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argie1891 posted this 06 January 2012

you guys like uncle russ who talk about shooting shotguns. i shotgun is more like a shovel. a rifle is a precision insturment. rifle shooters are like surgeons shotguns shooters are more like electricians. the only was a skeet shooter misses is when he gets to tired to hold up the shotgun any longer. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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joeb33050 posted this 06 January 2012

One of the things I'm working on is about the “internal” groups. Let's say we shoot a 5 shot group. We know the group size, easily measured. Number the shots 1,2,3,4,5. A 5 shot group contains ten 2 shot groups, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-4, 3-5, 4-5, ten 3 shot groups and five 4 shot groups. (See the formula for combinations) So a single 5 shot group contains twenty-five “internal” groups. Measuring all, there are 26 group sizes, and this set of data should contain ALL the information there is about the five shots. What we'd look for is the anamoly/ies betwixt the data. joe b.

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6pt-sika posted this 06 January 2012

argie1891 wrote: you guys like uncle russ who talk about shooting shotguns. i shotgun is more like a shovel. a rifle is a precision insturment. rifle shooters are like surgeons shotguns shooters are more like electricians. the only was a skeet shooter misses is when he gets to tired to hold up the shotgun any longer. argie1891 Hmmmm I must be an Electrical Surgeon then .

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shastaboat posted this 06 January 2012

I tried to wipe the stuff off my computer screen with tp but it just smeared it around...lol...

Because I said so!

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Pigslayer posted this 18 March 2012

Well, one can wipe his primer pockets with a Q-Tip, count the individual flakes of powder & even draw stick diagrams to indicate motion if one wants. I shoot three shot groups . . . mainly to insure that two of them weren't flyers. I'm a hunter & I can't eat paper. Guns were made for killing . . . period. Whether it be whitetail deer in hunting season, groundhogs in the off season or human beings in war. One shot kills are what is requied because in each of the scenarios listed, there probably won't be time for a second shot. In the last scenario one may not live to get another shot. Most of my life I hunted whitetail deer in northern PA. Not from treestands or just setting in the woods. We put on drives & had watchers posted in the open areas that we were driving the deer to. The deer generally came busting out of the woods running low to the ground & going like h**l. You had to lead them & hit them on the run. I've done it many times & without hitting them in the butt. Shooting paper w/ 10 to 20 shot strings won't prepare one for that. Controlled enviroments are nice & pretty but won't put meat on the table. I love shooting cast bullets but also shoot a lot of jacketed. It hurts me (due to my having a fracture of the cervical spine) but I still shoot my 7MM Remington Magnum w/full power loads: 162 gr. Hornaday SPBT, 62 grs. IMR4831. powder & CCI Mag. Lge. rifle primer. I shoot 3/4” three shot groups at 100 yds. with that load. That same load will kill an Elk at 500 yds. So go ahead & try a 20 shot string with that cannon. Maybe with a lead sled . . . maybe. I'm a good sized fella, lotta muscle from years of construction work, I go 240 lbs. & can shoulder a big gun. There is no way I could shoot that rifle . . . or even my .270 Winchester 20 times without flinching. But then if I were in a controlled environment, at a bench, with sandbags, had a competition rifle w/heavy barrel & targets that did not move & did not shoot back at me, I might be able to do it. Again . . . guns were made for killing . . . period. One shot . . . one clean kill. Also again, I shoot three shot groups to insure that two of them weren't flyers. I don't shoot “out of the box” ammo. Never have. I load my own with great care. I don't count the individual sticks of powder (although I have thought about it) but I check my beam scales against each other & make sure each charge is on the money. Competition shooting is a wonderful sport & I enjoy watching it but whenever I look at a target I see an eight point buck, a six by six elk, or a Black Russion Boar. Have a good day. Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 18 March 2012

i have been following this thread for several months ...i thought shirley someone would surely deviate into a discussion of the re-inverse effect of shooting a low number of shots that give a larger group than is acceptable.

for instance, say you have a coyote rifle, and being it is light enough to carry a few miles a day ..... you desire only 1.0 moa ...good for a 400 yard hit on a coyote ....  so with your new load, you shoot 2 into 1 moa ...but the next ( 3rd ) spirals out to make it 3 moa ....

so youse math guys ...do you keep shooting, entering more and more data into your   excel ... spreadsheets, looking for some eternal truth  ...

or do you ....decide that after walking 12 miles in deep snow for one shot at a crafty lobo jr.  ...that that errant 3rd shot might just be your first shot in hunting mode.

so maybe a lousy three shot group has more value than a great three shot group ....what would be the equation for that ?

heh heh, just sayin ..   ken

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delmarskid1 posted this 20 March 2012

This may make a case for the “one shot group". Math be damned. Where does the first round consistently go?

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.22-10-45 posted this 20 March 2012

Hello, Ricin..Boy you sure opened a can of worms on this one!  When working up a load, I will usually shoot 3 shot groups to save time and bullets..it may not tell you the best grouping...but it gives you a pretty good idea what will NOT work...Of course, with my luck..I'll load up a gazillian other loads..thinking I'm getting close to perfection..only to find the first two or three samples were the best..leaving me to pull bullets the next day.

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RicinYakima posted this 20 March 2012

22-10-45, That was the point! Discussion! Why do we do what we do!

The hunter needs only a one shot group, first shot cold clean barrel. Three shot group give them the ability to know how far that they can take the first shot if they screw up and need numbers 2 and 3.

Target shooters need only the amount require for that target, i.e. 5 or 10 normally.

Experimenters want 7 or more for statistical reasons.

But that is just my opinion, no better or worse than anyone else's.

Ric

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joeb33050 posted this 20 March 2012

I always make 1 shot kills on coyotes after walking 12 miles through deep snow. As a matter of fact, I have never walked 12 miles through deep snow without killing a coyote with 1 shot. Now, deep snow. Here on the Florida keys, we consider deep snow to be anything over 4 feet deep. The snow here is seldom that deep. In MA, where we lived before moving here, deep snow is over 6 ft. deep. In ME, 6 ft. of snow is considered flurries. Who is shirley? joe b.

Ken Campbell, Iowa wrote: i have been following this thread for several months ...i thought shirley someone would surely deviate into a discussion of the re-inverse effect of shooting a low number of shots that give a larger group than is acceptable.

for instance, say you have a coyote rifle, and being it is light enough to carry a few miles a day ..... you desire only 1.0 moa ...good for a 400 yard hit on a coyote ....  so with your new load, you shoot 2 into 1 moa ...but the next ( 3rd ) spirals out to make it 3 moa ....

so youse math guys ...do you keep shooting, entering more and more data into your   excel ... spreadsheets, looking for some eternal truth  ...

or do you ....decide that after walking 12 miles in deep snow for one shot at a crafty lobo jr.  ...that that errant 3rd shot might just be your first shot in hunting mode.

so maybe a lousy three shot group has more value than a great three shot group ....what would be the equation for that ?

heh heh, just sayin ..   ken

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RicinYakima posted this 20 March 2012

Joe,

"Shirley” is one man's “common sense", anothers “that doesn't make any sense at all” and still anothers “that's a damn lie!"

Ric

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Johnny Breedlove posted this 21 March 2012

Personnely. 1 shot group for hunting, 3 shot group to make sure my first shot is going to hit where I think it will, 5 shot group for compition, 10 shot group for fun. From my perspective a 3” 10 shot group is pretty impressive, especially with a 45-70 shooting cast bullets.

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Uncle Russ posted this 15 September 2012

(Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

6 point)

But even you will have to admit their groups are larger!

    :nawnawnaw:

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6pt-sika posted this 15 September 2012

Uncle Russ wrote: (Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

6 point)

But even you will have to admit their groups are larger!

:nawnawnaw:

I dunno 20 years ago when I was decent at shooting the shotgun games , the way my 410 loads turned targets into black clouds kinda led me to believe they weren't as “wide” as most folks would want ;)

100 straight with a 410 was one of two things I really wanted in the skeet game that eluded me !

My best registered score with the 410 was a lone 99 and many many 98's !

And since I never achieved that one I was never gonna achieve my other goal of 400 straight for a weekend of skeet . Sad to say my best with that was only a lone 395 with many many in the 392-394 range .

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jhalcott posted this 02 April 2013

I like several 3 shot groups, noting WHERE #1 hit on each. Preferrably on separate days. I've NEVER seen consecutive 3 shot groups cluster into ONE hole. Often the SAME target will have a “group” for each day,separated by less than an inch. Do two half inch groups one half inch apart qualify as half inch or ONE INCH?

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billwnr posted this 02 April 2013

I had a CBA Heavy gun named “Christine” that during load development fired 3 shots into a .3” group. I figured that was suspect as the crosshairs weren't pointing on the first two shots for the third shot.

Fired a confirmation group and it was decidedly larger.

Gun was named “Christine” as in the movie. Someone else has it now.

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onondaga posted this 02 April 2013

I'm checking in on this because I believe there is a valid reason for a resurgence of a certain kind of shooter that likes and relies on 3 shot groups. The cost of ammo components is encouraging these shooters to use 3 shot groups. The main reason for the attraction to the 3 shot groups is that these are the same shooters that are:

Cheapskates

Gary

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tlkeizer posted this 02 April 2013

Greetings,

     Sometimes you just have to pay your dues, so here is my 2 cents worth.  While you guys are writing, I decided to go shooting.  Of course, up here in Alaska that meant waiting for the temp to get above zero, and the fresh snow to quit falling which gave me only enough to get just above my knees (I am only 6'3” tall, so the snow wasn't that deep compared to Florida).  I am including a photo, if it gets attached, with your choice of a 3,4, or 5 shot group.  I kind of like my 3 shot group if you take the smallest to largest going from 3 to 5.  Even my 4-shot group is nice, the 5-shot group might not take a caribou out to 200 yards, but then again I am using a trapdoor 45-70, all original Springfield Model 1873, fired only 88 times for the last at least 63 years.  The extra shot is a different load, but if you wish you can include it in an ad hoc 6-shot group.  When it warms up enough, and I get enough cartridges loaded, I will see about a 10-shot group.  In the meantime, how about some pictures to go with your feelings?  Now, these were shot at 50 yards as I just don't feel like long treks in snow without meat at the end of the walk right now, and as the rifle is old and my eyes are half as old, and I have yet to shoot a caribou over 100 yards, I am satisfied with this for now.  As for shooting skeet, the only time I ever went 100 straight was with the .410, in a 28-guage event none the less.  Otherwise, the best I did was a few 98's in 12 and 20, with mostly 92's + or -, with an occaisional upper 70's (and poor grades in spelling).  Enjoy the photo to go with your groupings.  I did shoot a one-shot group once that was .459 on a plain sheet of paper.If the photo does not come through, oh well, maybe next time..>

TK

 

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RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2013

I was out practicing today with two other CBA members and two potential members. Below is my 10 shot score target. Remington 03A3, Lyman #311284, 16.0 grains of A2400, 1475 f/s. This is about what the rifle and I can shoot, a 2 inch 10 shot group. One out of every 40 or so will be out the full two inches. The lower right three holes are 13/32” for a 3 shot group potential. There is also a 3/4” 5 shot group potential in there. It could just as easily been the first three shots of .300” or the first three shots have been 2.00".

I am still of the opinion that shot hits are random within the cone of bullet travel. With a good rifle and good bullets they should be denser toward the center but you will still have “outliers” as some people are now using that term.

FWIW, Ric

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Chargar posted this 02 April 2013

3 shot groups are just fine for sighting in a hunting rifle, but will deliver no meaningful information about the accuracy potential of the rifle or the load.

On the plus side, few hunters are interested in ultimate accuracy potential of the rifle and the load.

On the negative side, that doesn't belong in a journal entitled “Precision Shooting” because it isn't.

I find nothing to get spun up about. If, I got spun up about every piece of nonsense I have read and heard over the years about guns, I would have screwed self into the ground many years ago.

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Pigslayer posted this 02 April 2013

tlkeizer wrote: Greetings,

     Sometimes you just have to pay your dues, so here is my 2 cents worth.  While you guys are writing, I decided to go shooting.  Of course, up here in Alaska that meant waiting for the temp to get above zero, and the fresh snow to quit falling which gave me only enough to get just above my knees (I am only 6'3” tall, so the snow wasn't that deep compared to Florida).  I am including a photo, if it gets attached, with your choice of a 3,4, or 5 shot group.  I kind of like my 3 shot group if you take the smallest to largest going from 3 to 5.  Even my 4-shot group is nice, the 5-shot group might not take a caribou out to 200 yards, but then again I am using a trapdoor 45-70, all original Springfield Model 1873, fired only 88 times for the last at least 63 years.  The extra shot is a different load, but if you wish you can include it in an ad hoc 6-shot group.  When it warms up enough, and I get enough cartridges loaded, I will see about a 10-shot group.  In the meantime, how about some pictures to go with your feelings?  Now, these were shot at 50 yards as I just don't feel like long treks in snow without meat at the end of the walk right now, and as the rifle is old and my eyes are half as old, and I have yet to shoot a caribou over 100 yards, I am satisfied with this for now.  As for shooting skeet, the only time I ever went 100 straight was with the .410, in a 28-guage event none the less.  Otherwise, the best I did was a few 98's in 12 and 20, with mostly 92's + or -, with an occaisional upper 70's (and poor grades in spelling).  Enjoy the photo to go with your groupings.  I did shoot a one-shot group once that was .459 on a plain sheet of paper.If the photo does not come through, oh well, maybe next time..>

TK

 

My kind of shooter! :dude:

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 02 April 2013

onondaga wrote: I'm checking in on this because I believe there is a valid reason for a resurgence of a certain kind of shooter that likes and relies on 3 shot groups. The cost of ammo components is encouraging these shooters to use 3 shot groups. The main reason for the attraction to the 3 shot groups is that these are the same shooters that are:

Cheapskates

Gary

Gary, I find that for one to call anyone ( in this case ) a cheapskate is simply ” contempt prior to investigation “'. I'm a hunter & in that has never, never taken over one shot to take a game animal AND have many a deer to my credit. The bulk of which were shot “on the run” as we drive our deer & post watchers. I've never seen a deer or bear sit still for the 10 shot group, nor rabbit, nor pheasant, nor grouse . . . Not even a squirrel. But then I guess . . . paper is hard to kill for some & not very filling at the dinner table. So, all you ten shot group guys keep harvesting your paper while I fill my freezer with one shot. LOL

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

In April I am assisting Dennis Carlini in targeting, getting sight dope and recording a record book on each of the M1 Garand rifles in his collection. Each week we are shooting four rifles. He has an example of each WW2 producer, the postwar and Korean era producers, each type of cal..30 National Match and 7.62 NATO match conversions done by the Navy, Marines and Air Force, as well as CMP rifles returned from Greece and Denmark. 24 in all.

We plan to shoot Ball M2 in the issue grade guns, and M72 Match or M118 in the match grade guns. The best four issue grade and match rifles will be shot again with Sierra match bullet handloads.

Each gun will be fired first one 8-rd. clip for function and sight adjustment, then three eight-round clips marking each string, and recentering to capture individual targetz plus 24-shot composite at 200 yards. Then x, y coordinates of each shot group, calculate CI and RSd for each rifle.

That should give a fair idea of what the M1 does, no fooling around. One day may write it all up.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Uncle Russ posted this 03 April 2013

Now come on Ed.

Don't tease us. Keep us posted as you do your work (work?).

Then give us the facts, nothing but the facts.

:wav3:

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

No cast loads planned...... But I may shoot some in my own ” parts gun” with Criterion barrel, after having shot WW2 era DM42, DEN43, BallM2, LC43 APM2, and FA34 Ball M1.

Will probably do #311299 with 30 grs. of RL-7, because I am out of HiVel #2!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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72coupe posted this 03 April 2013

Everyone is out of Hivel #2. I do know some people that would like to find some though.

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RicinYakima posted this 03 April 2013

Charger,

You seem to have missed the whole point of this thread. Your effect, one shot, one hunk of warm meat, is only possible because the rifle/cartridge/shooter combination could cause a bullet to strike a vital part of the animal. Nothing against hunting, but for me it is pretty boring and not something I want to spend my time doing.

Those of us who are more curious want to know why and how the rifle/cartridge/shooter combination. We can only do that buy putting permanent holes in paper. “Sighting-in” means nothing to us because you learn nothing from it.

So let us agree to disagree. A one shot group is fine for a hunter, but it doesn't say anything about why and how things work.

Best wishes,

Ric

p.s. Ed, I have about 3/4 pound of Hi-Vel #2, worth its weight in silver, I would think.

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

Last HiVel #2 I had was gifted to me by Frank Kurek when I went to the CBA Nationals at Council Cup Range in Wapwallopen, PA back in my NRA days. I duplicated many of the old classic .30-'06 loads, also shot cast with it and used the data for several articles at the time.

Frank Marshall said that I should have captured all the smoke and put it up in cans and sold it.

"Perfume powder” he called it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 03 April 2013

I was given this powder about 10 years ago, and it appears to have been from just prior to WWII. Like you, I loaded all of the old data loads, too. Considering the other powders that were available, it was very good stuff with a wide pressure range of clean consistent burning. Is it just me, or does all of those old Hercules powders have a unique (:D) smell for each brand?

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jhalcott posted this 03 April 2013

Recently I watched 2 gents “sighting” in their rifles for a hunting trip. Both guns were fired off high quality benchrests. The 3 shot groups were respectable at about 1 1/2". I asked how well they shot in a HUNTING situation?? Groups opened to about 6” at the same 100 yards.(3 shots)from a siting position and larger from a standing position. MY custom built Varmint rifle will put 5 or 10 shots into 3/4” @ 100 yards all the time.My DEER rifle ,off the shelf Rem 700-30-06, will keep it's shots under 2” with a 3x9 scope.This in varying weather and geographic conditions. A scope adjustment MAY have to be made when going from Maine to Arizona,but that's to be expected. On THIS site(CBA) I thought we would be talking about CAST projectiles.! I do not under stand the NEED for 10 shot groups in fun shooting. I shoot an occassional 10 shot group, usually when I am burning up OLD ammo.

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

RicinYakima wrote: Is it just me, or does all of those old Hercules powders have a unique (:D) smell for each brand?

Thanks to Col. Harrison, Frank Kurek and Frank Marshall, I have had the opportunity to use old Pyro, MR15, HiVel#2, HiVel#3, Infallible, Sharpshooter, Lighting and SR80.

All of those old powders smelled wonderful and had a different distinctive character of their own, not like powders today. I'm not sure what the secret was, but if somebody could capture those aromas and combine them with old leather, sperm oil and a hint of whiskey and tobacco smoke he would surely have Slattery's Pool Hall No.9

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 03 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: RicinYakima wrote: Is it just me, or does all of those old Hercules powders have a unique (:D) smell for each brand?

Thanks to Col. Harrison, Frank Kurek and Frank Marshall, I have had the opportunity to use old Pyro, MR15, HiVel#2, HiVel#3, Infallible, Sharpshooter, Lighting and SR80.

All of those old powders smelled wonderful and had a different distinctive character of their own, not like powders today. I'm not sure what the secret was, but if somebody could capture those aromas and combine them with old leather, sperm oil and a hint of whiskey and tobacco smoke he would surely have Slattery's Pool Hall No.9

What a wonderful analogy Ed! :dude:

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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