range report 223 Low Vel squirrel loads

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  • Last Post 12 February 2012
onondaga posted this 08 February 2012

Sunshine Today and winds under 10, temp about 30 F.

I ran the chronograph and shot groups with my experimental low velocity squirrel load. My Rifle is a NEF Ultra Varmint in .223 Rem. with a 1 in 12 twist Bull Barrel 22 inches long. The after market varmint composite butt stock is weighted and a Forend Storend stock used. The  all up weight with a Bushnell 3 x9 scope is 9 pounds 8 ounces.  The bullets are cast from the round nose Lyman 225646 mold with Lyman #2 clone alloy and sized/checked at .2245"

The charge is 2.9 grains Hodgdon TiteGroup. My extrapolation of  data predicted a velocity of 1,150 fps and I came close with an average of 1,137 fps. There were no misfires in all 50 shots at the range and no odd sounding shot report. The report seemed no different than a .22 rim-fire.

Raw Chrono Data:

1141          1211 1129          1159 1138          1114 1121          1145 1137          1121 1195          1160 1118          1117 1105          1127 1116          1124 1137          1137

Ten shots were fired to sight in and the first group was 6 inches lower than my varmint load, but zeroed right in. A 22 cal. Hoppe's Bore Snake was pulled through once after the sight-in and once after every 5 chronographed shots.

My hopes were realized on the first target and a group less than 1 inch at inch 50 yards printed. Several other targets were all about the same size and under 1 inch. Here is a screen shot from my On Target program that measures group size with my target in my scanner:

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corerf posted this 08 February 2012

It may be coincidence, but the 6th round of each volley accelerated after cleaning. The cleaning may have been of some detriment to the total aggregate group size.

When yo were cleaning, any remarks to make.... leading, fouling, lube, etc?

I have a stevens 200, 223, arriving in a week and I'd like to pursue a similar load with similar bullet. I have had stellar performance with the 225463 bullet in a 10 inch k-hornet bullberry barrel, similar MOA, no fouling/leading and it stays right as long as I feed it ammo. Only shot at 50 yards. And I am pushing at 2k fps with it. BHN 24 bullets, checked with White Label 2700+.

Hoping for similar results from the rifle.

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2012

corerf:

The velocity change with the first shot has been typical with this rifle and many different loads. That first shot invariably is the lowest in the group also. It is usually a very small difference. The difference was much more pronounced before I honed the bore and then first shots were high in the group but still the fastest. I assume bore finish is causing this but groups have been smaller in general after the bore honing. I believe this is typical of NEF barrels, they are not match grade slick from the factory, that is why I honed it.

Cleaning was unremarkable other than the bore looked clean and shiny after every 5 shots and there was no leading noted whatsoever. My bullets are lubed once before sizing/checking and twice after with 45:45:10 Recluse tumble lube . With bullets sized for this rifle at .2245” and tumble lubed I have no leading up to 2,550 fps and have not tested beyond that. I only get just under 2 MOA at that velocity with this bullet but no leading.

A comment on your 2K load: gas checked bullets may not have to be BHN 24 to hold up. IF  your pressure is less than 45,000 psi and your bullets are .002 -.003” over slugged groove to groove bore diameter and your bore is slick, BHN 15 Lyman #2 clone alloy like mine should shoot tighter groups in my opinion. I tried 27 BHN checked bullets at Hi-vel and all else equal, but my groups were larger until I changed back to #2.

The condition of the brass after firing this low pressure load is the blackest overall this rifle has ever done to brass. The low pressure does not seal the cartridge neck to the chamber and even my breech face was heavily carbonized requiring a brushing after the first 25 rounds,

Gary

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72coupe posted this 09 February 2012

I was at the range 2 saturdays ago giving some instructions to some potential highpower shooters when a guy with his whole family set up at the other end of the  range. He had a brand new M4gery with a scope. He set it up and fired 1 shot. Blew it right up.

The other instructor asked him what his load was and he said 25.5 grains. I asked of what. He said Tite Group. I said you are lucky to be alive.

He went on to say these were his first attempt at handloading and he had looked at the manual and decided that 25.5 grains was the correct charge for his bullet weight but he couldn't find his powder in the listings.

I am glad he survived uninjured but I hope he gives up reloading.

A friend of mine suggests that he reduce his load by 10% and if the gun again blows up he should reduce the load by 1% until the gun no longer blows up. He will then be certain that the maximum load has been reached.

What can I say, my friend is an engineer.

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tturner53 posted this 09 February 2012

Nice shooting Gary. Thanks for the report. I noticed in the picture a computer program deal. I'd like to predict the velocity for some .22 Hornet loads I'm going to chrono tomorrow. Is there a program available online for that? It's a 51 gr pb Ranch Dog over Bullseye.  I'll know when I shoot tomorrow but am curious if it can be predicted accurately. Edit; I edited out the charges of Bullseye pending better load data.

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72coupe posted this 09 February 2012

Friend of mine has the NECO program and he calculated the pressure for the load above at 303,000 psi and the velocity at 5960.

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corerf posted this 09 February 2012

onondaga,

the 24 bhn was stuff in the pot, convenient. have not spent huge time casting 22. I have some 13 cast with the same alloy, air cooled, loaded the same way. Have yet to shoot them. Soon.

The unleaded bore is good news.

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2012

tturner53:

The charge predictions I use are from online freeware and I just enter my data then click calculate. The software only works to calculate down to a lower velocity from a known charge and it's velocity.  You have to have a load that is already chronographed that is higher than you want. The program only predicts  the charge for a reduced load and it does that very well within .2 grains every time I have used it.  Link:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/reduced.asp

If you are sure the 3.9 grain load is safe and chronograph that load, the program will calculate the charge for a velocity that is lower and tell you the charge to use. The program is not quite what you are asking for but that is only what the program does.

I started with a load that someone else had chronographed from a .223 Rem with a 55 grain FN and 3.5 grains of Hodgdon TiteGroup that clocked at 1335 fps. I ran the program to reduce from there.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2012

72coupe:

I used extreme caution developing this load. TiteGroup is a very fast pistol powder that I have never used before. There was general info at the Hodgdon site that seemed to designate the powder as a good choice for reduced loads but no specific data for .223 was given.

An internet search found only 2 shooters using this powder with reduced .223 loads and the 3.5 grain load with a 55 grain FN at 1335 fps seemed like a place to reduce to the 22 rim-fire velocity My grandson and I desire.  Members here supported the idea also and I gave it a try with some confidence.

My grandson also asked what a full case of TiteGroup would do and I had a serious talk with him about his inexperience and safe loading procedures.

Gary

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tturner53 posted this 09 February 2012

Thanks for the info. Based on more research I've edited out the Bullseye charges in my previous post. Although apparently safe enough the velocities would be way too high for a pb bullet. I'll chrono the starting load I came up with and see where I'm at. May have to pull the bullets on the rest.

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runfiverun posted this 09 February 2012

i'll secong the softer alloy. i started with lino also but quickly found that my alloy of 4/6 allowed me better accuracy and i was able increase the velocity and get even better accuracy at the higher speed. for the speeds you are striving for ww's or even softer would make a better hunting boolit. 22's use an alloy of about 1.5% antimony. good shooting though.

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joeb33050 posted this 09 February 2012

Would you tell me the length of this bullet? Thanks; joe b.

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2012

joeb33050:

I got out the mike and checked my Lyman 225646 bullets. They measure .692” long with the gas check installed.

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onondaga posted this 10 February 2012

I did a second check for Maximum LOA with the Lyman 225646 in my rifle and came up with  a little different than the last time. I got 2.225” with the bullet being marked by the rifling. I reset my bullet seating to get an overall cartridge length of 2.200” and found just the slightest mark on extracted rounds. The first batch was .020” shorter and showed no engagement of the bullet by the rifling on chambering.

Charge has been increased to 3.0 grains of TiteGroup and velocity is expected to be 1160 fps. This is just a bit higher than the 2.9 grain TiteGroup load that chronographed at 1137 fps. My grandson will be trying these on our next trip to the club range. I hope his rifle likes them as well as mine does. I loaded up 50 for him. Gary

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joeb33050 posted this 10 February 2012

A .224” bullet, 55 grain, .692” long, 1137 fps in a 12” twist gun has Gyroscopic stability(Sg) of 1.16, minimum shouls be ~1.3. Greenhill minimum twist is 10.9". Dell minimum twist is 8.6". Miller minimum twist with Sg of 1.5 is 10.6". If I did the calculations correctly. It looks like this load needs a twist of 10” for no keyholing at ?100?, ?200? yards. Is the bullet stable at 100 and/or 200 yards? Thanks; joe b.

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onondaga posted this 11 February 2012

joeb33050

Your enthusiasm about bullet stability is noted. The NEF is available in 2 twists a 1 in 9 and a 1 in 12.  I have the 12 and my grandson has the 9 so we can test both. I did fire 2 groups at 100 and they were both less than 2X the size of the .556 MOA group pictured above that was fired at 50 yards,  but this is a squirrel load and I felt that data was uncalled for. I tried harder at 100 yards than I did at 50, That makes a big difference for me.. Bullet holes were round and clean at 100 yards. I won't be shooting this load at 200 yards as this is a squirrel load specifically. I have a lot of other rifles for 200 yard shooting. These bullets actually weigh 61 grains for me in the alloy I cast including the gas check and lube but I did not want to state that about the 225646 as it is listed to cast a 55 grain bullet.

My bullets are sized .2245” and rifling cuts more into that size than 2240” you used in your calculations. These bullets not sized and left at .2250” would be even more stable. The formulas do not take into account the fit of intentionally over sized bullets and depth of rifling cut into the bullet. The over size alone is a method I regularly use to  lower the importance of Greenhill and Dell. This has worked for me out to 1000 yards with a lifetime best of a 6.82 ” group of 5 shots with the wrong twist for a 100 grain bullet from a 25-06. I wish I had a collection of rifles with different twists, but I can compensate for that factor. I am real lucky and a good shot also./images/emoticons/134.gif

Gary

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joeb33050 posted this 11 February 2012

Gary; With a 61 grain weight I get stability with Greenhill constant = 165 rather than 150; and the Miller formula with Sg = 1.29. In other words, both Greenhill and Miller predict stability “correctly". The Dell formula is a problem. What I'm trying to do here is compare experience = data with the formulas, to assess the correctness of the formulas. I don't know how to do this at high velocities, but can do it at low velocities. The only other low velocity data I have is mine = Ed Harrris's = Lefty's which are .308/200 gr., 1.175” long/1100-1200 fps. It would be nice to have additional heavy long bullet low velocity bullet data, but the picture is a little clearer now. Thanks; joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 11 February 2012

Gary; With a 61 grain weight I get stability with Greenhill constant = 165 rather than 150; and the Miller formula with Sg = 1.29. In other words, both Greenhill and Miller predict stability “correctly". The Dell formula is a problem. What I'm trying to do here is compare experience = data with the formulas, to assess the correctness of the formulas. I don't know how to do this at high velocities, but can do it at low velocities. The only other low velocity data I have is mine = Ed Harrris's = Lefty's which are .308/200 gr., 1.175” long/1100-1200 fps. It would be nice to have additional heavy long bullet low velocity bullet data, but the picture is a little clearer now. Thanks; joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 11 February 2012

Gary; With 61 gr., Miller predicts stability with Sg = 1.29, Greenhill with the constant at 165 rather than 150. Both predict stability “correctly". The C. Dell formula is a problem. I'm comparing experience = data with formulas to assess the predictive ability of the formulas. Don't know how to do this at HV, but your LV data and the lefty/Ed Harris/my data of .308/200 gr./1.175"/1100-1300 fps open the window a little. I wish I had some more LV heavy bullet stable data. Anyhow, thanks for the help; joe b.

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tturner53 posted this 11 February 2012

I shot the .22 Hornet/Bullseye loads. Since it's a little OT for this thread I'll post a new one.

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CB posted this 12 February 2012

Joeb,

I have a data point that may be of interest in your comparison of stability methods. During the 1980s I was active in CBA competition with a combination that was on the ragged edge of instability. I bought a Ruger IB specifically because Ruger had announced that their 223s would have a one in ten inch twist (instead of the usual 12 at the time) and I was looking for a 22 rifle that would stabilize long bullets. I had hit the wall trying to make the usual short bullets and 14 inch twist shoot five shot groups better than about 1.5 MOA. I also designed a 71 grain 22 bullet and Walt Melander of NEI produced a mold. Although other twists I have measured have always measured as even inches as advertised, my new Ruger turned out to have a 1 in 10.7” twist no matter how many times I measured it.

I had specified the .780” length of the bullet based on Greenhill and a 10” twist but the bullet shot well anyway ”€œ but just barely. With the right combination it would average a bit better than one MOA if the wind wasn't blowing too hard. I used the rifle and bullet in CBA production class competition for about ten years. The part that may interest you is that it was normal for at least some of the bullet holes at 100 yards to be clearly out of round indicating that the bullets were tipping a bit. Sometimes all of the holes would be a bit oblong and the group still measured under an inch although I'm not quite sure how the scorer's measured them.

This combination also made an excellent squirrel load with the accuracy for head shots farther than my ability would allow from field positions.

For most of the barrel's life (10,000 rounds) I used 9 grains of 5744 for 1,580 fps. Most groups had at least one out of round hole. There were perhaps more out of round holes at 200 yards but the combinations was still competitive at that distance in good conditions. My records show some velocities as low as 1,180 where oblong holes were slightly more noticeable but average five shots groups were still under 2 MOA.

I thought you might like to run these numbers through your various stability methods because it seems to me that this combination must have been at the very edge of stability.

John

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