303 BP LOAD

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  • Last Post 25 November 2007
CANADIAN BACON posted this 26 February 2007

Iam trying to put together a load for one of my enfields. I have FFF and Pyrodex. I have been away from my loading bench for about 4 years. I know a bit about smokeless but not much experince with BP Cartridge loads Someone mentioned 777 and a few others. I am thinking of trying a 4F load. Presently I can only get 55 grains of FFF into the case. I'll only be shooting 100 M with this load so high volume in not critical. THANKS:fire

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Ed Harris posted this 27 February 2007

You will get less velocity with 4F than with 3F or 2F because the grain web size is so small that you have a higher percentage of graphite coating to base grain with the increased surface area. Best would be to use heavily compressed 2F, but if you cannot get heavy compression in the bottlenecked case, then trickle 3F through a long drop tube, at least ten inches, but twenty is better.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 03 March 2007

Swiss black powder is considerably more potent than Goex (and more expensive). I am a Swiss fan. I would suggest Swiss using a drop tube, as Ed suggests (I made a simple stand to hold my drop tube). I put a powder funnel on the top, and slowly trickled the powder in to the tube (to get maximum powder in the tube). In my experience, Swiss requires much less compression than Goex. In my 40/65 BPCR, I would compress Goex up to .350” (using a compression die) when Swiss only required .035"-.085” compression (depending on bullet).

Load ten cases at a time with no compression (full case but no compression,just touching the bullet base after drop tubing) then keep adding 2.0 grs of powder for each ten case series. Normal progression is to have wide groups at the start (with no compression) with the groups getting smaller as you add powder. When the group starts to get bigger, stop. Then you can fine tune.

Using a soft bullet to compress the powder will almost certainly damage the bullet. That is why I use a compression die.

Dale53

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Mnshooter posted this 06 March 2007

The .303 was originally loaded with black powder but with a jacketed bullet. The jacketed bullet may have been used to compress the powder for volume loading for military uses. Also, the rifling was changed in the old Lee Metford to accomodate the new cordite powder after the switch. I played with black powder in an old 8mm turkish mauser. Accuaracy was okay, velocity was about 15-1600 fps. I never really worked up a good load as I decided that my 45-70 was a better option for any black powder shhoting I wanted to do. A personal decision. Good luck, have fun.

Mnshooter

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Ed Harris posted this 07 March 2007

Also when the .303 was loaded with black, my understanding is that they started with a straight case, loading a compressed “plug” of powder, then a card wad, necking the case after wad seating in the same manner as with the later Cordite cartridges. It's a bit more difficult to trickle a BP charge and get good compression with a bottlenecked case.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Daryl S posted this 12 March 2007

Ed's right- as usual. The 70 gr. weight 'plug' of black powder was shoved down into the straight case, then a wad was placed on top of the powder plug. The case shoulder was then swaged into the case along with a jacketed bullet, crimped in place. ; Jacketed bullets shoot amazingly well with black powder. Due to their hard fit in the bottom of the grooves, each shot cleans out the BP fouling left by the previous shot. ; At the BP ctg. events in Australia, they allow jacketed bullets and the shooting is better than cast - normally. : My bro's .45 3-1/4” Sharps shot generally under 1” at 100 yards with 100gr. 2F and a jacketed 500gr. Hornady bullet. BP gives very close shot to shot velocities and the jacketed bullet delivers the accuracy.

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Dale53 posted this 17 March 2007

Daryl S; >>>My bro's .45 3-1/4” Sharps shot generally under 1” at 100 yards with 100gr. 2F and a jacketed 500gr. Hornady bullet. BP gives very close shot to shot velocities and the jacketed bullet delivers the accuracy.<<<

For some reason, my reply was not complete. I'll try again.

It takes a good man to shoot those kinds of groups with the heavy recoiling rifle that  a .45 3-1/4 Sharps represents. Obviously, your brother IS a good man with a rifle.

Dale53

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Daryl S posted this 18 March 2007

We both have been shooting irons for many years. Starting with our rimfires in our early years, we graduated to smokepoles in the very early 70's for me and late 60's for Taylor. Being able to shoot small groups with irons is only a result of many hundreds & hundreds of pounds of lead and powder expended. Practise with iron sights is vitally necessary - something many shooters today lack. Being involved in iron sight competition also teaches proper sight aquisition and trigger control

: Taylor is exceptional in his abilities with a tang sight and single pin head or post.  If he'd ever learned to shot double aperatures, he'd be unbeatable. Thankfully, such is not the case.-HA! We can both shot to the ability of the gun with irons & over the years my big game hunting rifles carried irons as often as scopes. With my sight finally statring to need help, I lean to the scope, but still can manage 1” and sub that with accurate rifles with good irons. Even my little Swede still makes 1-1/2” groups with it's battle sights and bulet weights from 129gr. through 160gr.

: I've been pouring over all my old data for the .458 2".  My new .458 2” chambering reamer should be here any day now. Much of my loading for it is with cast bullets which have worked well on moose, black bear and elk in the past. I do like shooting the .458 calibre rifles with cast bullets.  They're exceptionally accurate and easily duplicate jacketed group sizes.

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Dale53 posted this 18 March 2007

I started my “shooting career” with iron sights and .22 smallbore competition. For most of my adult life, I could shoot good irons nearly as well as telescope sights. We often had iron sight AND scope sight competitions on the same card. Most of us shot both (just to have more trigger time). Most of us were only a point or so down with irons.

I shot black powder cartridge silhouette competition for fifteen years (when only irons were allowed). Until old age and diminishing vision caught up with me, I loved iron sights (aperture, of course). Now, I am still competitive but ONLY with scopes and red dots. Not complaining as I still have as much fun and feel grateful that my favorite sport is still available to the likes of me.(:>))

Dale53

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Daryl S posted this 19 March 2007

Right-on, Dale.  I lucked out wihth the sight business to some regard. My glasses give me a pretty good sight picture, with the target just a tiny bit blurrier than it used to be. I supect this situation will probably change in a few years. Right now, the sights on the long-rifle are still pretty good with my glasses, and the Sharps and Mauser carbines show quite well due to their proximity to each other.

: I got quite spoiled with the 6-20X to 6-24X scopes on the .17 cal. gophers rifles and even use 6-18 on the Ruger 10-22.  It's spotting the little beggers thats getting difficult, bu tonce they've bene targeted, the visuals in those scopes are 'special'.

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AMMOe posted this 03 October 2007

Didn't the black powder loads for the 303 get dropped due to excessive pressures?~Andy

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JeffinNZ posted this 04 October 2007

No, BP was dropped as Cordite was invented in the early 1890's and took care fo the BP fouling issues plus increased velocity 100 odd fps.  Of course the Cordite also proved to be hell on Metford rifling so that was changed out too.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Daryl S posted this 04 October 2007

Ed, you're right regarding the loading of BP in the .303. The 'plug' of powder, very solid in nature, weighted 70gr. The bullet was set upon the card or jute wad and the case necked down against and then crimped into the bullet. The resultant velocity was in the relm of 1,800fps, remarkable for the day, using BP in such a small case. : It is impossible to dupicate this load today with black powder as omly around 45 to 50gr. can be dribbled into that small rimmed case.

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DonH posted this 05 October 2007

Being a fan of both BP cartridge shooting and .303s, I intend to give this a try too. I won't under-estimate possible difficulties going in. However, I don't foresee any real difficulties in getting some kind of acceptable load as long as I don't make attaining original velocity a must. I might even give a BP duplex loading a try. A friend does this with .40-65 using a small 4F priming charge under the main charge. this works very well fr him and shoots MUCH cleaner too.

If one is inclined to try the BP substitutes, it is my understanding that Triple 7 is considerably hotter than BP grain for grain. this would allow higher pressure and hence (I think) should give greater velocity. Max pressures should be no problem compared to smokeless .303 loadings.

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Mnshooter posted this 25 November 2007

AS mentioned, I tried BP in an old Turkish 8mm mauser. I used 777 as well as black. The 777 is hoter and would give up to 1600 with a 200 grain cast. 777 does not recommend using any compression over a tenth of an inch so I dont know how much you could compress it. You might also try duplexing smokeless and black in this type of load. The 8mm was fun with that load and something I had to try. 1600 fps with a heavier bullet is plenty for close range deer hunting with the right bullet. While the Metford rifling was designed for black for military use, the newer rifling will likely work. Part of my thing with the 8mm and black is that it just somehow did not seem like BP shooting as most BP rifles were lever or single shots. Thats a personal thing not to be applied to anyone else, have fun good shooting.

Mnshooter

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