218 Bee

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  • Last Post 18 April 2012
Michael K posted this 13 April 2012

Finally made it around to giving CBs a try in my Marlin 218 Bee. The first try was with RCBS 22-55-FN cast from lino and 5744. Lubed with GCs they weighed in at 54grs. I started at 8.4gr and worked in .3s to 9.3grs. I stopped shooting at 9.0gr with an average velocity at 1730fps and the 8.5x11 target at 100yds was untouched except for a couple of keyholes. The way I figure I struck out on this go round due to a combination of 3 factors. Strike one- slow twist, strick two- low vel, and strike three- bullet too long. The only good thing was the lube star on the muzzle. My my original quest was to find a load in the 1500-1800fps range. This obviously needs to be modified to find a faster load that will stablize without leading the barrel up.

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argie1891 posted this 14 April 2012

i have a couple 218 bee rifles. first trade your mould for the lyman 225438 second dont    worry about too low a velosity. i dont think you can drive a bullet that is too long fast enough to stabalize. i know some people claim you can but i have never been able to do it. try the shorter bullet and i think it will work for you. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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onondaga posted this 14 April 2012

Black and Blue:

Keyholing bullets when shooting cast bullets is caused by bullets that are too small in diameter for your barrel regardless of velocity.

Linotype is also likely too hard of an alloy for your gas checked bullets at 1730 fps. Lino is brittle and will be shaved off by your rifling causing keyholing. Linotype becomes a viable alloy selection when you want to shoot cast bullets at load levels with pressures above 40,000- 45,000 psi.

I think you have heard some tales from uninformed cast bullet shooters about getting started with the .218 and cast bullets.

IMR 4198 and RL7 have starting loads near 1800 fps for the Bee and a 55 gr cast GC  bullet in #2 alloy.

10.8 gr IMR 4198 gets a  1810 fps starting load 11.7 gr RX7 gets a 1799 fps starting load

Bullet fit is the biggest concern. Slug your bore and use a Starrett micrometer to measure. That is the best place to start.

Gary

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Michael K posted this 14 April 2012

Shortly after buying the rifle I loaded some Speer 50gr TNT HPs with 14.5gr of RL7 that generated slightly over 2500fps and single loaded them for prarie doggin, this was before I found my Hornady XTP Bee load. They shot around 1.5 ins at 100yds. The TNTs were fairly long although I do not have any more on hand to compare length. I have a couple hundred of the CBs on hand and some cast from WW somewhere. I will fiddle with loads a bit more and just to see how things go. Appreciate the input and suggestions.

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onondaga posted this 14 April 2012

I did some important edits. Your RL 7 would be fine with you bullet in #2 alloy with the load above.

Gary

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linoww posted this 14 April 2012

"Linotype is also likely too hard of an alloy for your gas checked bullets at 1730 fps. Lino is brittle and will be shaved off by your rifling causing keyholing. Linotype becomes a viable alloy selection when you want to shoot cast bullets at load levels with pressures above 40,000- 45,000 psi."


I strongly disagree in as friendly as possible way.

Lino works well in my 22's at the velocity you mentioned.i have shot down under 3/4” many times with 22 caliber sporter weight guns at 1600-1800 with lino and stereotype.The first 10 years i cast all i had was Linotype from dads print shop and i used it in all calibers with success.I even use linotype for plainbase 30 caliber loads at 1100 fps and get very good accuracy.The more legitimate point is its too expensive of an alloy for low pressure loads that dont need the bullet strength.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 14 April 2012

LINOWW:

Lino can work well if you luck out with bullet size that your rifle will tolerate. That is a very narrow window with a hard alloy cast bullet  but  a much broader window with an alloy better matched to the pressure of your load gives  that yields a much greater sweet spot of accuracy.

We do disagree and that can help us both learn. I can further support my recommendation to the original poster.

I disagree with you recommending Lino to the OP as a first suggestion of alloy for his application. In general, Lino requires load pressures around 30,000-35,000 psi to obdurate  the alloy and seal the bore. Lino has a working range from there to over 40,000 psi but Lino is also brittle and mismatching load pressures high to the alloy strength can cause it to shatter and fragment or be shaved  from the rifling with rampant leading,  lower pressures and the Lino is shaved to undersize for the bore by the rifling and key-holing and leading is rampant. The brittleness of Lino makes it a poor bullet choice. Quick peaking pressure curves of powder like Unique can shatter Lino because of the brittleness of Lino.

Alloys that are more malleable than Lino are a much better recommendation within their respective range of ultimate compressive strength in psi minus 10% or more related to load pressure in psi . That is where I put him with the #2 alloy .

A small percentage of copper or silver can be used in bullet alloys containing much less antimony than Lino to achieve hardness greater than Lino without the really bad brittleness of lino with it's high antimony content. They are not very common, however, due to a more complex alloying procedure.

You can get lino to shoot but it is just  inappropriate as a first recommendation for the OP's application with the Bee at 1500-1800 fps. #2 alloy air cooled  or even heat treated COWW alloy bullets would be good recommendations to the OP for his application.

Gary

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argie1891 posted this 14 April 2012

maybe i just dont understand how it works, but in my 40 years of cast bullet shooting i never had an undersized bullet key hole. i have had undersize bullets that you couldnt hit the broad side of a barn if you were in it. whenever i have had bullets tipping i used a shorter bullet and the problem went away. i too have shot lino at low vilosity at one time i had a buddy who worked in the printing business and had an almost unlimited supply i shot in in everything from 38 sp to 30/06. i have a baby rolling block with 1-16 twist.at least that is what i get when i measure it. and a winchester model 43 not sure of the twist have shot mostly ww at around 1800fps and had accuracy problems untill li went to the shorter bullet. i am not saying that is the olny bullet that will shoot but it is the best one i have found in my rifles. i have used several powders startomg wiht unique moving up to surplus 680 and tried a few with accurate 2200. all shot better with the short bullet. and as a side note when they hit a sage rat the recoil is low enough to actually see the impact and how far the little critter flys. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 April 2012

it would be good to measure the twist rate of the marlin.  could it be 1 in 16 inches  ?  this would give us another fact, which would mix in well with our opinions... ( ok, that's . a cheap shot (g) )

in my varmint-accurate 222, 14 twist ...the 225462, 55 gr ideal would shoot ok at 100 yds, but usually a little tipsy ...  the 225438 43gr ...gave round holes.   oh, and speeding up the long bullets didn't help much.

this is interesting to me because a current project is rebarreling a r77hornet.  i have such a pretty takeoff barrel from a target rimfire sako...with 16 inch twist.  suppose it's 40 gr for me. (g).

ken

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linoww posted this 14 April 2012

Mine response is based on  1000's of rounds fired.it works 99.9% of the time.

george

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Michael K posted this 14 April 2012

A number of years back when I shot pistol silhouette I picked up a 4-cav Saeco #257 mould for my .256 Win Mag. CBs were much less expensive than 87gr Sierras especially when my wife started shooting it. Anyway, when cast from WW the bullets dropped out at around 108grs. I could not get them to shoot. Changing over to lino dropped the weight down to 99-100gr range and things came together from there. It had it's share of nay-sayers, but solid AAA scores were the norm, an ocassional ram would fail to fall, but not very often but I digress. The round would not shoot 87gr Hornadys, but 87gr Sierras did fine with upper end loads. The Horns were just a bit longer than the Sierras and were unstable, the lighter loads with the Sierras would not shoot either, and the Saecos were a bit shorter than the Sierras.

What I learned with the Saeco bullet was I could not safely push the WW slugs fast enough to stabilize. Lino casting a lighter bullet permitted slightly heavier charge wieghts and hence velocity, and it all came together.

My Marlin Bee has a 1:16 twist, the same as the 22 Hornet data listed in Hornady's latest manual, which happens to list 55gr loads for the Hornet. Call me overly optomistic if you will, but I find fiddling with things like this finding what does and doesn't work half the fun and at time very enlightening.

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argie1891 posted this 15 April 2012

keep us informed on your trials. maybe you will get better results with the heavy long bullets than i got. one nice thing is that if it dosent work you can always go to a shorter bullet. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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CB posted this 15 April 2012

Black and Blue, I think Argle and George are right. My Marlin 1894cl has the stupid 16 inch twist called for by SAAMI which will only stabilize short bullets. No matter what they are made of or how fast I shoot them I get oblong holes or full keyholing with bullets that are as long as your 55 grain RCBS.

Check calculated stability with Greenhill or one of the more sophisticated methods and you will see that you are shoveling fecal matter against the tide with bullets that are too long.

As far as whether linotype will shoot -- the proof is in the pudding. Check out the tech report on the CBA nationals. Many top shooters use linotype even at velocities down in the 1,600 fps range and shoot top scores in front of God and everybody. This is true even in the two classes that use factory rifles.

It is true that linotype is more brittle than some other alloys but if the bullet fit is good it will shoot well in a wide range of applications as George has found. I do find that softer alloys that will upset and obdurate are sometimes easier to get best accuracy when bullet fit is marginal.

I usually use softer alloys because it is a waste of linotype unless you need it.

What was the length of your Saeco #257 bullets and what was the twist in your 256?

John

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Michael K posted this 15 April 2012

Hi John,

Thanks for your feedback.

Measurements for the .257 bullets are: 87gr Horn- 0.905 87gr Sie- 0.855 Saeco 257- 0.840* Twist on the .256 is 1:14"

I checked some .224 bullets just for giggles: 50gr TNTs- 0.685 55gr Horn SP- 0.705 55gr RCBS- 0.624*

*The length on the CBs include gc.

Re linotype: I agree, my experience parallels yours. There have been some applications where it was what shot best or was the only thing that worked. Otherwise it is waste of good metal especially in larger calibers. If I were chasing terminal performance and weight retention on big game, concern about its brittleness would be warranted. I am shooting paper, cans and small game. With smaller slugs where I am getting 70-120 to the lbs, it something that one can live with it. Primarily I now mix with WW, in my 20# pot I put in 17#WW with 3# lino and have found it to give a nice balance of hardness/softness, good fill out, and when need be it heat treats well.

Michael.

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.22-10-45 posted this 16 April 2012

Hello, Black and Blue. If you can find an older Lyman 225415..usually a single cavity and 49grs. these should be a good start for your Bee. This little bullet was originally brought out for the .22 Baby Neidner..a wildcat based upon the .3220 case (.219 Bee was not hatched yet. I found 5744 far too slow in a Hornet..can't emagine it much better in a Bee. Try either of the 4227's or 4759.

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.22-10-45 posted this 16 April 2012

Hello, Black and Blue. If you can find an older Lyman 225415..usually a single cavity and 49grs. these should be a good start for your Bee. This little bullet was originally brought out for the .22 Baby Neidner..a wildcat based upon the .32-20 case (.219 Bee was not hatched yet). I found 5744 far too slow in a Hornet..can't emagine it much better in a Bee. Try either of the 4227's or 4759.

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Michael K posted this 16 April 2012

I have some H4227 on hand that I was pondering about trying out. Might even give 1680 a whirl.

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PETE posted this 16 April 2012

I'm having a lot of fun keeping track of this thread.

I think I've mentioned my Bee before, but in case not...... It started life as a heavy barrel Sako Vixen in .222. Some time before I bought it someone shortened the barrel and chambered it for .218 Bee. Thank you kind sir! With the 1-14” twist I have great hopes for it some day..... real soon now! :)

I'll have to go along with those saying hard bullets are the way to go. And I think the harder the better. I tried a 1-25 Tin/Lead 50 gr. bullet in it and st 100 yds. the best it would don was 2 1/2” at 100 yds. Hardening the bullet to 50//50 Lino/WW's and the groups shrunk to 1 1/2".

Using a heavier 65 gr. Lyman 225462 bullet with the 50/50 alloy I haven't taken it out to 100 yds. yet but at 50 yds. it shoots into 9/16” with either 8.4 or 8.6 grs. of 4227.

Pete

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.22-10-45 posted this 16 April 2012

Hello, I have found the best accuracy in my Hornet & .222 Rem. is Steriotype alloy, diluted with soft lead. I tried straight Steriotype..harder than Lino.accuracy bad..I don't think it was obturating at all. One of the most helpful things I found for accuracy, was making a sizer die with inside taper to match rifling leade/throat angel. Sizing first band made a great improvement..I am seating to engrave this band..something probably not advisable in a lever action.

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Michael K posted this 17 April 2012

I made up 2 batches of loads. The first held COL short enough to cycle through the action. The second were seated out long to permit slight contact with the lands. Being optomitic I shot the longer batch first. Had I shot the shorter ones, at least I could of pulled the bullets w/o fighting crimped cases and marring the bullets. I size my Bee cases just enough to smudge a smoked shoulder when sized and again when chambered. Not real snug, but certainly no slop. So far this has worked well with my XTP loads. Case shoulder is too small to work with a Stoney Pt headspace guage.

Pete- happy to hear that you are enjoying it.

Michael.

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delmarskid1 posted this 17 April 2012

Pete,Thanks for the help with my Bee. We had some efforts getting it to shoot plain base 60's. It likes 45's and 50's better. Ruger no.1 with a 14” twist. 50/50 lino/WW and 4.5g of AA2. I cobbled up a 22 hornet collet die to work. I love this cartridge. It looks like an itty bitty 7.62x54 Russian.

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