not sure what i'm doing wrong

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  • Last Post 02 June 2012
idahosawtooth posted this 19 April 2012

This is continued from my other post. I have changed lubes I mixed up 50/50 batch of bees wax and lithium grease. Still got leading. So I figured I would try a little bigger bullet. Lapped out my lee sizer to .431, its a tight fit through the cylinder throat but I can push them through with a pencil. Just went out and tried 5 shots still leading. Here is what I am using. Ruger super blackhawk 7 1/2” barrel slugged at .429 throat is .431. Bullets weigh about 253 to 254 was pushing them with 24 grs of h110 dropped to 23 grs with this last batch of bullets. Bullets are cast from strait wheel weights water droped from an ideal mold 429421 first sized to .430 then to .431 got leading with both. First pan lubed with bees wax and petrolium jelly then switched to bees wax and luithium grease got leading with both. Any ideas would be welcome kind of getting frustrated.

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onondaga posted this 19 April 2012

idahosawtooth:

Filthy black patches when you clean your revolver chambers and barrel does not mean leading. Lead is silver-grey shiny shavings cut from your bullets that comes out on patches as solid flecks or thin strings from your rifling grooves.

Are you really getting leading or just dirty patches?

The combination of many powders and lead bullets with lube leaves significant black gunk on patches. That is not lead. That is powder fouling and lube fouling. That is normal with cast bullets and can be minimized with certain lubes and less of the lube. A different powder may also help.

Non gas checked bullets also foul more than checked bullets. I get the least fouling with gas checked bullets lubed once before sizing/checking and once after with Recluse 45:45:10 Tumble lube.. I warm the bullets and the lube before application to keep the coating very thin , nearly clear and non tacky.

In general, if you are getting a lot of smoke when shooting, you are using more lube than needed.

 Also, My Lee manual #2  for the 44 Mag lists 23 grains H110 as Maximum for a 250 grain lead bullet and 1602 fps @ 35,000 CUP. You  are shooting a heavier bullet and a higher charge. You should expect problems going over MAX.

Actually, you should have researched the load from multiple sources and would have known better than to load that hot. You are on the edge of disaster with your load.

Particularly, You need a really hard alloy for that load level, If your gun will handle it. Lyman #2 at BHN 15 would be nominal alloy for that load with a gas checked bullet . A plain base bullet at that load level defines “a mess".

Back off on your load to 20 grains would be my first recommendation.

Gary

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pat i. posted this 19 April 2012

Are these gas checked bullets? If so try some LBT Blue lube on them and see if that helps. It might help to try a different powder too. You're running that thing pretty hot the way you're doing it now.I always liked Accurate #9 in my 44 magnums. Start low and work up instead of starting at the top and working down. If you're relatively new to this you might be best off using about 9 grains of Unique and getting your feet wet before trying to go balls out.

Edit: Just read your other topic and see you're using the 429421. I hate making a battle out of shooting so my advice would be to dump the Lyman PB bullet and order a gas checked 250 gr LFN mold from Veral Smith at LBT. Along with the mold order some LBT Blue Soft lube. It'll set you back a few bucks but your troubles will go away and end your frustration.

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6pt-sika posted this 20 April 2012

I've had pretty decent luck with the Lyman 429244 which is a 250 grain GC . Also the yet to be released to the public Ranch Dog 432-240GC should be okay in a 44 MAG handgun as it certainly shoots nicely in my Marlin 44 MAG and 444 !

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pat i. posted this 20 April 2012

Any flavor you want as long as it wears a gc for heavy loads. Ranch Dog would be good too because it'll be big enough. I just shy away from Lyman moulds and always had great luck with LBT's. Use a good lube to make things easy.

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onondaga posted this 20 April 2012

pat i.:

You are very kind. He could have started off that way with H. Lil'Gun and we wouldn't have  heard from him again.

Gary

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idahosawtooth posted this 20 April 2012

Onodaga, thanks for your input not real sure how to take it though. The barrel has lead colored streaks on the lands and groves never had that shooting jacketed bullets looks just like copper fouling only lead colored just assumed it is lead. When I clean it lead slivers come out on the patchs. As for the load, I did reseach it, I'm a beginer at casting not reloading, been reloading for over 30 years, the lyman manuel says 25 grains is the max I never went that high. I started at 21 and worked up to 24. 24gr seemed to group the best so I stayed close to that. Had fouling even at 21 grains. Thanks Tory

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delmarskid1 posted this 20 April 2012

How long did the bullets sit after the water quenching? I've heard that they take a few weeks to age and harden. I haven't water quenched but have oven heat treated. They got hard as blazes after three weeks or so. Before that time they were just regular wheel weight bullets. I like to keep my plain base loads under 1200 fps. They don't lead much or hurt me. The other thing that I do is run a couple cylinders full of the fastest jacketed bullets through for every 50 or so lead bullets. I don't like fooling with gas checks in handguns. Just me.

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onondaga posted this 20 April 2012

idahosawtooth:

Tory, You have idealized your bullet fit with the pencil push fit.  If you feel the load is safe and you have that good fit yet still have the leading, the next likely cause is the alloy, then the lube last and least important.

You mention bullet weight at 253-254 grains. Alloys with more lead cast heavier. Your weight is heavy if the mold is a 250 grain mold, so I assume you are using a soft alloy. If it is straight clip on wheel weight, that has enough Antimony so that if you heat treat the bullets they will be hard enough to lower your leading. I oven heat at 350 F. for 1/2 hour then quickly dump bullets into a bucket if ice water. This will bring COWW alloy to about 18 BHN very evenly for all the bullets so it is much more consistent than water dropping from the mold.

If you are just going to buy an alloy, I'd recommend Hardball or Lyman #2  from Rotometals. If you are just guessing at your hardness, buying a certified alloy or purchasing a lead hardness test kit like the Lee Hardness Test Kit would be a good investment, especially with the high level load you desire.

When you have a good fit of bullets like you have and your alloy is correct for your load level, even a crappy lube will work.

Gary

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Fg1 posted this 20 April 2012

Tory , the H110 is a pretty high pressure powder and when driven hard should have a gas check to keep from smearing lead . I think with even water quenched ww and a bit of tin it will still smear lead. You possibly could get away with it using linotype but a gas check would be better . For the plain base 250ish I run the Unique for fuel usually 10 grs and for heavy loads , mine is 22grs H110 and 429244 (?) LY gas check SWC.

I add  a little 50/50 solder to raise bhn to 12-13 and it helps fill out better. 

These are for my Ruger SBH and S&W29 .

Good luck .

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idahosawtooth posted this 20 April 2012

Thanks for all the good information. I will keep trying diffrent things and let you know how its going. Thanks Tory

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billglaze posted this 31 May 2012

This might be worth just exactly what you're paying for it, but here goes: My Ruger Super Blackhawk in .41 Mag. showed severe leading with just about every level of Unique--one of my favorite go-to powders when I just want to get started shooting something. The leading was so bad, that after 4 shots, I sometimes would'nt even register a hit on the paper at 25 yards. Sent it back to Ruger; they replaced the barrel. (Real fast service, with no b.s.--great company) Helped--a lot. But, still leaded a little. Changed to H-110, fairly heavy load, but not near max. Still traces of leading, but the accuracy seemed O.K. Finally, after a lot of testing, still more or less leading, I finally bit the bullet (Har!) and succumbed to Gas Checks. Hooray! No leading of any kind, any powder, any level of losd. Hate to do it, the gas check is now the most expensive component of the load, except, of course, for the case. Still and all, it's nice to clean a gun with a wet swab, and then dry it out, and the job's done. As I say: FWIW.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 01 June 2012

just a note on lithium grease as a lube ...i played with it for a while,  it worked fine for a lube ...but barrel conditioning was erratic ...  usually the first shot was out of the “group “

lots of lithiums ...mine was k-mart in a tub...sometimes the first shot was out by a mile...really strange ...then if i kept shooting the groups were good ....weird.. ken

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Dale53 posted this 02 June 2012

I have been loading for the .44 Magnum with several different handguns for many, many years (since the sixties).

I use a home cast bullet (originally a Lyman 429421 and now a Mihec H&G #503 - both 250 gr Keiths).

My practice load is 23.0 grs of H110 and hunting load is 24.0 grs of H110. 25.0 grs is maximum.

I have fired well over 10,000 rounds of these loads in two different Smiths (Model 29 and 629) and a Ruger Red Hawk and Ruger Super Blackhawk.

I get NO leading in any of the revolvers. I use WW's+2% tin (have used a bit harder on occasion without issue). I size at .430".

I use the same bullets in my several .44 Specials, again, without issue.

I have used two different bullet lubes:

1 - NRA 50/50 both commercial and home mixed 2- Lars White Label Carnauba Red

To the original poster - I would try a different lube. That may be all that you need to solve your problem. NRA 50/50 is readily available as is Lars Carnauba Red. Lars lubes are quite inexpensive and his service is excellent;

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/

FWIW Dale53

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hunterspistol posted this 02 June 2012

:coffee     I second that!  Have 50/50 but use Carnuba Red.  It cleans up with mineral spirits (in extreme cases, acetone).

     Ron

     Ah, I see, it's a Ruger.  Consider that they have tight dimensions but, have what is called thread crush.  There is a place where the barrel threads to the frame that creates a slight restriction or rough spot.  If you get leading just past the forcing cone and on out to the muzzle, it may be the machining. 

     I moved to gas check molds for a short time.  Had to use bronze brushes and clean the copper fouling out then, switch to mineral spirits and nylon brushes.   Once I got them clean, the gas check molds didn't lead at all.  Now, they have been shot enough that even plain based molds don't lead.  With their tighter dimensions, you can get too big.  It's better to be very close, or very conservative with changing sizes.

     I thought about fire-lapping but, it's like one of my friends said, “Or, I could just shoot it for the next twenty years instead"!  So, I shot them.  It worked out.  I really didn't want to scrub on them all that much but, I did.  Oh, and that 'thread crush',  that was a pain to clean too!

     Good Luck,

              Ron

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CB posted this 02 June 2012

My Super Redhawk had a bad case of thread crush, and I had to lap it. Foolishly, after doing much work with it, I sold it and ended up with a 629 MG that seemingly hates lead. My .432 throats have a lot to do with that. Shortly after that, I bought an old (1985), blued Redhawk, which absolutely loves any lead load I feed it. It actually seems to be happy here, if a machine can be emotional. Hot loads, light loads, it doesn't care at all. Hard bullets, soft bullets, I'm amazed, I've never had a gun so happy to sling lead bullets. Plain based Keiths with all the powder I can stuff in the case, it's all good. I'm still struggling with the 629, and I suppose it will get a custom mould, so we can (hopefully) make His Highness happy. For the SBH the OPs struggling with, I'd consider running 25-30 medium grit lapping bullets through the barrel to see if there might be some roughness at the forcing cone causing the issue. And do try LBT Blue lube.

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hunterspistol posted this 02 June 2012

” Once I got them clean, the gas check molds didn't lead at all. ”

Thought I'd clarify that.  I cleaned them, set them down and then, in the same day, cleaned them again.  For me, that's like voting democratic, feels really bad. I shouldn't be subjected to cleaning the same gun twice in the same day. lol.

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galenaholic posted this 02 June 2012

WSell, I don't agree with some of what's been said here but we all have opinions and they're like noses. Everybody has one. .> First off, if a 250 gr. mold is casting bullets ar 253 to 254 grs, it ain't gonna make a hill of beans worth of difference. Just not enough variation to affect pressure all that much. The OP is using H110 and I use W296. Just different lots and packaging of the same powder. Mosy of my bullet molds run 255 to 260 gr. and I use 24.0 gr. of that W296. The only gun that I do not use loads of that type in is an S&W 629. darn thing shoots loose enough in 250/300 rounds that it's been back to Smith twice. It even balks at the Elmer Keith pet load of 22.0 gr. of Hercules (not Alliant) #2400 powder. It's reduced to warmish .44 Spl. loads. :( Nice gun but the 1905 design was never made for .44 Mag. type loads. I have friends who have had the same problem with the M29s so that may be more common than people might like to admit. I will be perectly frank here. When my supply of W296 is used up I'm going back to #2400. I'll probably go with the current recommended max load of 20.0 gr. but that's because I think/feel Aliant's version of #2400 is a bit faster burning. As far as alloys go, most of the time I just use cleaned wheel weights. No leading from the lyman #429241 or a couple of clones in SAECO molds. I also cast #429244, a gas check bullet but really don't need it as my bullets don't lead. At least not very much and what is there brushes out real easy. It's funny because people keep saying you need a hard bullet. IIRC, Elmer Keith used bullets as soft as 16 to 1, lead and tin. That has to be a pretty soft bullet. I've used the NRA formula 50/50 beeswax/alox lube, the softer version of LBT Blue and right now there's Lyman's Magic Orange in the luber/sizer. All have worked just fine. The 50/50 is the messiest to work with but it is an ecellent lube and really doens't cost all the much in the general scheme of things. The same goes for the other lubes as well. Paul B.

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Brodie posted this 02 June 2012

Idahosawtooth; The most common reason for leading i n revolvers is a cylinder that is smaller than the throat of the barrel, or thread crush, where the barrel throat is smaller than the barrel itself.  Slug and mike your barrel, and slug and mike your cylinders.  Don't jus5t use the inside measurment spikes on your dial caliper to measure the cylinder , you won't get an accurate measurement.   The hardest lead bullet in the world with or without a gas check will still lead if the cylinder throat is smaller than the barrel etself. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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