Ringed chambers

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  • Last Post 08 May 2012
sharps4590 posted this 07 May 2012

I expect this question could go in any forum having to do with shooting or reloading but as I saw it mentioned in another thread in this BP forum I'll ask it here.

First off I've been reloading for near 40 years and shooting cast bullets for more than 30 of those. That includes a lot of rounds fired with fillers of various kinds, Cream O' Wheat, cornmeal, dacron, kapok and the foam filler as described by Grahme Wright in his excellet book on loading for double rifles. I make no claims to be an expert but I believe I'll understand what is being said.

What gives with fillers? I tend to believe most who use them are experienced and careful handloaders who pay attention to detail. So, why is it that one or several reloaders can shoot the same load with filler for years and for no known reason one time the same load will ring a chamber? It seems that has happened with all fillers with the possible exception of Grex.

Not to cast aspersions on anyone but I wonder if on some of those occasions a step was left out of the process? I don't believe that to be the case all the time but surely in some small percentage that must be true. I do believe there is something more going on than a lapse of attention. Is there some way to know if a particular load is going to ring a chamber? I doubt it but if there is I'd be pleased to know.

The biggest reason I ask is that for some number of years I have been using the packing foam filler alluded to earlier. To me that seemed the epitome of a filler. It was light, 2 grs., held the powder against the primer, disintegrated upon firing, was cheap and easy to come by and was exceedingly easy to work with. Recently a handloader friend whose opinion I respect told me perhaps I shouldn't be using the foam any longer. He had heard or read of a ringed chamber by someone using foam. I might also ask for a learned opinion of foam fillers.

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frnkeore posted this 07 May 2012

There is a book written on that very subject, Charlie Dell's, The Modern Schuetzen Rifle.

In it, it basicly says that he could reliably “ring” a chamber if the powder were held back against the primer with a wad or “filler".

He recomended that you allow the powder to be able to slump in back of the wad. Because of that, people that shoot the short 32 Miller, place there floral foam wad .100 ahead of the powder.

Frank

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sharps4590 posted this 07 May 2012

frnk, would that also apply to large capacity black powder cases in which smokeless is being used? Wherein the smokeless charge is a fraction of the original black charge? That is mostly what I shoot when I can't find a black load that will regulate in a double rifle. Do you know if Dell's book still available?

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joeb33050 posted this 07 May 2012

I have used various fillers with various cartridges in various guns for years. I, and many other shooters, have used Dacron tufts = minimum weight fillers in thousands of rounds, maybe hundreds of thousands, with never a ringed chamber. During the construction of the book I actively looked for credible reports of chamber ringing caused by fillers. I found some, but very few. Most stories start something like “My cousin's husband knows a guy..." I have generally found that if a filler decreases group size, a marginal increase in powder charge will match the filler group size. Not always, but most of the time. If the question is:"Will a Dacron tuft filler in a cartridge with a normal charge of normal powder with a normal bullet cause a chamber ring, even very infrequently?” then Charlie Dell's book/experimenting does NOT answer the question. Charlie's conclusions are not supported by his experiments; his writing on this is not convincing. Read it and make up your own mind. I've used foam fillers, cut with an arch punch from supermarket meat trays, and there was no magic. The only filler/wad that has reliably worked for me is a ~1/16” soft plastic, ?ldpe? wad just below the bullet. Any bullet/gun combo that leaded was cured with that kind of wad. Maybe wads/fillers cause chamber ringing, but if so, it doesn't happen often. And the beat goes on. joe b.

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LWesthoff posted this 07 May 2012

I used filler wads for a while when I first started messing with cast bullet rifle loads. I quit when I started reading about the occasional ringed chamber. Figured it wasn't worth taking the chance, given the very slight - and questionable - improvement in group size. I have never personally seen a ringed chamber.

However, Ed Harris reports having seen quite a few, at least one of which he experienced on a rifle he was firing. I'd like to hear what he has to say on this subject. I've noticed Ed doesn't often make statements he can't back up.

Wes

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sharps4590 posted this 07 May 2012

I should have been a little more informative about my use of fillers. I don't recall having ever used them in modern bottlenecked cartridges. All of my use has been in large capacity, usually straight or tapered BPC cases where the smokeless charge is a fraction of the BP charge. I do use them in the slightly bottlenecked 40-82 WCF case. In all cases obviously to hold the charge toward or against the primer so it doesn't lay in the bottom of the case horizontally. Is there a difference between using them in modern, bottlenecked cases and the cases I use most often?

My packing foam fillers for my 500 BPE are about 1 1/2 inches in length and go from the top of the powder column to the base of the bullet and weigh 2 grains....not a disc cut from a meat packing tray, is that what you mean?

I still want to hear everything anyone has to offer reference fillers, but the above is my use of and concern with them.

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JimmyDee posted this 08 May 2012

LWesthoff wrote: I'd like to hear what has to say on this subject.

IIRC correctly, Ed doesn't offer advice per se but has written that he doesn't like case fillers.  At all.  He has ringed a few chambers himself and saw many when he worked at Ruger.  All from cast bullet shooters using fillers.  Straight walled and bottle necked cartridges.

My take-away on using fillers?  Don't.  Find a more suitable powder or primer.

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Dale53 posted this 08 May 2012

I knew Charlie Dell, personally. He continued his experiments AFTER the book was published. The actual cause of chamber ringing was established by a Frenchman named, Villi (sp?)over 100 years ago. It was/is caused by a parallel pressure wave created by “squaring up” the powder by holding it against the primer. When that wave front meets the rear of the bullet, it causes an annular pressure ring. It is accumulative. Many times, the ring can be seen and felt inside the neck of the case (where the base of the bullet rested) before the barrel is ringed.

Old, soft steel, barrels (like those EXTREMELY valuable Pope barrels) were much easier to ring than modern chrome moly barrels. Some people get away with it and some do not.

Charlie Dell, along with a friend, made brass barrels (they yielded at lower pressures than modern steel), to test the theory. They were able to ring barrels at will. In fact, by holding the barrels vertically, they could ring a barrel WITHOUT a wad or filler. All that was necessary was to have the front surface of the powder parallel with the barrel bore some distance behind the base of the bullet.

I am fully satisfied that Charlie Dell and his friend fully verified the findings of the Frenchman, Villi (sp?).

Charlie determined that if the powder was allowed to “slump” a bit, the ringing force did not happen. So, by seating the wad at least .100” off the powder (.200” included a margin of safety) it eliminated the problem.

Charlie told me that dacron filler, for some reason, increased the likelihood of ringing.

Dale53

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joeb33050 posted this 08 May 2012

I don't know anything about a foam filler 1 1/2" long. A tuft of Dacron/kapok/cotton/knurlmanium holds the powder against the primer and in many cases increases accuracy. BUT, the ctg must be handled carefully, else-we think-the tuft moves closer to the bullet, changes the effect and may reduce accuracy. That's why we buy/make ammo boxes that hold 45-70 + ctgs bullet up. The ctgs are-we think-delicate. Cream of Wheat filler was used to fill BP cases because BP ctgs with air space might blow up-so we were told.We could use less-than-full case of BP and reduce recoil/increase accuracy. Now there is no blow up-how things have changed. COW cleans lead etc from barrels, blows out cases, ex 30/40 Krag to 40-1 7/8” Sharps when used over a bit of fast powder and held in the case with a grease wad. COW hardens into a compact extraordinary hard and dense mass and blows up the gun when used in bottle neck cases-magic? No, BS. I've used COW in 308, 30-06, 30-30, 243 etc with nary a blow up. COW keeps undersized bullets from leading, allows use of PB bullets at higher velocities, and has never, in my experience, produced great accuracy or any accuracy improvement of note. Clean out lead, fireform cases, yes. Keeping powder against the primer with a tuft can increase accuracy, but the ctg is ?delicate? needs careful handling. If I had a great big ctg I wanted to shoot, I'd shoot it with BP and COW, experimenting to get accuracy or regulation in a double gun. or With a very slow 4831 or oerlikon or h1000 or 50 cal kind of powder, maybe. I don't know much about that, but have read about it. A gunsmith told me years ago that fillers never ringed a chamber; that rings were places where a chip got caught in a chamber reamer. I knew I was taking the name of Charlie Dell in vain. Read what he wrote, not what somebody says he wrote. You may be convinced about ringing. I wasn't. I can scan and mail the section, I think, should anyone want it. 1 1/2 long foam wads-there's always something new. joe b.

sharps4590 wrote: I should have been a little more informative about my use of fillers. I don't recall having ever used them in modern bottlenecked cartridges. All of my use has been in large capacity, usually straight or tapered BPC cases where the smokeless charge is a fraction of the BP charge. I do use them in the slightly bottlenecked 40-82 WCF case. In all cases obviously to hold the charge toward or against the primer so it doesn't lay in the bottom of the case horizontally. Is there a difference between using them in modern, bottlenecked cases and the cases I use most often?

My packing foam fillers for my 500 BPE are about 1 1/2 inches in length and go from the top of the powder column to the base of the bullet and weigh 2 grains....not a disc cut from a meat packing tray, is that what you mean?

I still want to hear everything anyone has to offer reference fillers, but the above is my use of and concern with them.

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sharps4590 posted this 08 May 2012

Dal, I'm not certain exactly what you mean by “All that was necessary was to have the front surface of the powder parallel with the bore". To ring a chamber or not ring a chamber? Unless parallel should have been perpindicular? Seems to me if the surface were parallel it would not have a filler or a loose one? Perhaps experience some flash over of the powder? With my foam fillers I assume the front surface of the powder column is perpindicular to the bore.

joe they aren't really new. Grahme Wright and/or his double shooting friends came up with them 15 or so years ago while developing smokeless for black loads in the large capacity, straight/tapered cases originally designed for BP. Wright, an airline pilot, took several loads to Kynoch and Birmingham Proof House and had them pressure tested. Many, if not most, of the foam filler smokeless loads tested below the original BP loads, some by as much as 2 tons. I have no personal knowledge of foam filled loads ringing a chamber but I have heard of it.

Here's another thing I've always been curious about. If a filler holds the powder column against the primer, what is the differenece between that and a full case of powder or a compressed load? Does the density of the filler change the characteristics of the powder T/P curve or give it time to build up a “head of steam"?

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Dale53 posted this 08 May 2012

sharps4590; You are absolutely correct (perpendicular is the correct term). My bad (up too late).

At any rate, there have been many ringed chambers and I know a couple of people who deliberately take chances with that, I don't. I have no criticism of anyone that does but I certainly will NOT recommend the practice due to the fact that it REALLY happens.

I shot competitive schuetzen for a number of years but I chose to use a small capacity case for the most part (.32/.357 Dell) and just used a wad at the mouth of the case when breech seating. This allowed my chosen load of H110/296 or WC 820 to slump. When I used the .32/40, I used 4759 which filled the case full enough I didn't need a filler.

Dale53

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