How many reloads from new cases?

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CB posted this 12 May 2012

Approximately how many reloads it is it reasonable to expect out of new cases with the moderate pressures of most cast bullet loads.

What is your experience?

That type of failure is most common?

When do you throw the whole batch away and buy more?

How much will annealing extend case life and how often should it be done -- if at all?

John

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LWesthoff posted this 12 May 2012

When I started shooting cast bullets, I was necksizing with standard full-length sizing dies backed off enough that they did not size the case body, and then using a Lyman “M” die to expand/bell the neck. I was getting neck splits at anywhere from 6 to ten reloads.

Now I use a Lee collet die to neck size, and the Lee belling die to open the case mouth the absolute minimum needed to get a bullet started. I don't know how many reloads I can get with this method, because I haven't lost any cases from neck splits yet - but it's a heck of a lot more than ten!

I don't like Lee molds, and I've had some bad machining on some of their dies, but I think that collet die is the best idea Lee ever had.

Incidentally, I do not anneal case necks. Don't seem to need to, because I'm not working the necks enough to work harden them.

Works for me.

Wes

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Michael K posted this 12 May 2012

Hi John,

There a number of factors that can influence case life. With the often lower pressurues common with shooting CBs, the amount the brass is worked will likely be the limiting factor. If chamber and sizing die dimensions are not too far apart, then case life will be better than it will if one has a chamber on the large size and a sizing die that takes things down to a minimun. If you neck size only, then a bushing die with the correct bushing size allows to more closely match neck dia with bullet dia. help with case life. Brass does work harden and annealling will help, how much is an indivual decission, a number of BPCR shooters anneal after every firing. Myself, every 4-6 firings, BP or smokless.

When I started shooting pistol silhouette it was with a stock TC .30 Herrett and I learned real fast the importance of proper die adjustment. Early on I would see 3, sometimes 4 firings before case head seperatioin reared it's head. Once I figured things out, I lost cases due to split necks long before head seperation. When I stopped the pistiol silhouette game, the batch of 30 Herrett cases I was using was getting ready for the 23rd firing. Cases were sized in a Bonanza FL sizer, the load was 24 grs of H335 behind a 175gr 311291 running around 1750 fps from a standard 14” factory TC bbl. Not exactly a low preasure load.

I would cull cases as need be, when signs of head seperation or split necks cropped up, into the the recycle bucket the case went. No set number, some cases just wore out sooner than others. Some high-power shooters will toss the entire batch after the 4th time through their M1-A or M1, period, whether they look worn or not. If you are diligent in inspecting your brass after each firing you will soon get the feel for when is time to toss. Naturally as the cases become “older” the cull rate was higher than in newer brass. Hope this helps. Michael

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hunterspistol posted this 12 May 2012

:coffee     The simple short answers :

      I can reload a batch 7 or 8 times.

      Most common failure is the case head seperation from fatigue or the case neck split from brass becoming brittle.

      It's time to throw it away whenever some get brittle enough to split, and I know the rest are brittle too. 

     Brass has that property of work-hardening, new brass is shiny gold that's soft enough to load really good!

     Good Luck,

              Ron

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onondaga posted this 13 May 2012

There is a lot of variation in case life related to cartridge type and loading method. I get my best case life with .458 Win Mag. I partially size with a full length size die so bullets seat with light neck tension, seat bullets with a .002” crimp and anneal brass case mouths every 8 loadings. Most of my brass has been loaded over 50 times. I generally push a 350 grain FNGC bullet at 1700 fps with 57.7 grains H4895 and BPI Original Ballistic Filler to the case mouth. The very few cases that have failed had small cracks midway and lengthwise on the case. I have had 4 failures in the last dozen years.

I am currently beginning to worry about case fatigue and considering all new brass.

Gary

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giorgio de galleani posted this 13 May 2012

I am not experiencing case separations or split necks in rifle cases.

I am sizing with Lee collet dies or Lyman 45 rifle  neck sising dies.

I use a 3o8 win chester neck sizer  in most 30  or 303 caliber rifles because it has the largest diameter available.

In 375 H&H and 35Whelen I use Neil Jones neck dies in a press.

In straight walled pistol cases the Lee  carbide dies resize the cases the minimum quantity necessary.

Lee can give you smaller diameter dies if you need them.

Ed Harris does not use the sizer die,he uses only the so called factory crimp die to size the loaded round.

I had some case failure with nickeled cases in 45LC peacemaker clones,but I think that the problem is the variations in chamber thickness in that antique caliber.

38,357 and 44 brass in non magnum loads ,cast bullet shooting with pressures last indefinitely.

I have some norma brass that I bough in the  eighties and always shot wit cast in my 03A3 and USMOD of 17.Never had any need to trim them.

Case failure comes from too much full length sizing,pull through neck expanders and following the die makers manual of instructions.

Those books are are written to make you buy unuseful  gadgets and case prepping tools ,and to avoid complaints as ” my cartridges do not chamber easily “.

Buy the best new cases  available.instead.

Most long undersized nose rifle bullet moulds are designed to chamber easily,not for accurate shooting. 

Setting dies and moulds right for the individual gun is not feasible in mass production.  

PS.

Semiauto rifles in 308 or 762x39 or 223 need a different approach they are to be sized a little more aggressively, otherwise they might shoot out of battery .  

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 May 2012

hi john ...since you mention the marvelous 222....  when i wuz 15 yrs, i traded my win 43/218 bee  in for one of them rem 722/222 and a weaver k10 combo ...wow, how educational ...

anyway, at first my brothers would buy me assorted factory ammo, but quit when they figured out that they could never keep ahead of me.

i accumulated about 240 brass and by primer record count, loaded over 50,000 rounds from them.    eventually the rims rounded off from that rem extractor.  loads were almost all 24 gr ballc/2 and horn sx 50 gr.....  a load just under warm.  i never shot the barrel hot.

probably due to a lucky chamber, just neck sized mildly, and remained 3/4 moa almost to the end...  never stress relieved necks, and yes had an occasional split neck ...but by then the rounded rims were making extraction iffy.

oh yeah, glass bedded action, and 3 inches of barrel, otherwise floating.  and a g l herter maple stock (g).

speaking of cast bullets i have acquired a sako 308 sporter that shoots terribly...stock seems to vibrate against barrel ....  i plan to pillar bed this rig and run cast thru it.  always good to have a project...(g)

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 13 May 2012

jalexander wrote: Approximately how many reloads it is it reasonable to expect out of new cases with the moderate pressures of most cast bullet loads.

With minimum sizing, hundreds of loads.

What is your experience?

I prepare cases in lots, a lot = ideally 120 cases. Prep 'em all. Load them all in order-rotate them so each is reloaded ~ the same number of times. When the first neck splits, anneal the lot.

That type of failure is most common?

Split necks. Never = never had a case head separation. Primer pockets get a little loose, but that takes many loadings.

When do you throw the whole batch away and buy more?

Never. I have a set of was 100 45-70 cases from ~1976 reloaded many times, there are ~65 (didn't count them) left and the work fine. Smokeless and BP, annealed a lot of times, split some necks + accidents and lost the rest.

How much will annealing extend case life and how often should it be done -- if at all?

See above. joe b.

John

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billwnr posted this 14 May 2012

John, I'm still loading the same batch of Lapua .30/06 cases I bought in 2006. I only use neck bushing dies on them.

Most common method of failure. Off center loading in the shell holder

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CB posted this 16 May 2012

Thanks for all the good responses. This thread could serve as a sort of survey of reloading practice which was my maine interest. It is nice to know what people are doing -- you always learn something.

The thread would also be profitable reading for anyone starting out in reloading. Lots of stuff here not in the manuals as pointed out above.

I will confess my own experience. I have been using Lee Collet dies since just after they appeared on the market -- at least for all the caliber that I load that they make one for. I have had little to no lengthening of brass and it never seems to wear out.

I got serious about finding out how long it would last and used 20 223 cases for most of my testing for a couple of years to wear it out. The first case failed at reload 184 (neck split) and I retired the lot after the second neck split after 218 reloads.

Like some above I have never had a case separation in any caliber.

As long as we are telling stories about old components I am still reloading a box of Norma 222 brass that I bought in 1959 (before collet dies it was neck sized only) I also reload my 270 with some WWII 4831 that I bought back a spell for way less than a dollar a pound. Of course I have had some other batches of powder go bad in the meantime but this stuff will still push a 140 grain Nosler to 3,000 fps (26” Ruger #1)

Thanks again for all the great answers.

John

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curator posted this 16 May 2012

I have a lot of R-P .45-70 cases that I have been loading for 40+ years (bought them in 1959). Loaded them with both black powder loads and medium smokeless loads for my Springfield trapdoor M88. Of the original 50 there are 44 left after at least 100 loadings. I am not resizing, just re-priming, add powder, thumb seat .462 diameter boolit either paper patched or Lee Liquid Alox. I did anneal case mouths a few years ago just to be on the safe side. The more you work the brass, the quicker it fatigues. This same formula works with my 577-450 Martini Henry and 11.7X57R Danish Remington rifles.

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JeffinNZ posted this 16 May 2012

Is annealing worth while? IMHO absolutely.

Some of my .303 cases must have been fired 70-80 times with reduced loads. I use a Lee collet die and anneal about every 5th load.

For the Carcano I anneal every second firing simply because the Lee FL die I neck size with squishes the neck down to hold a .264 jacketed bullet (ID must be .262 after sizing) then the expander I had made open the case neck back up to .268 to take the .269 sized bullets. That REALLY works the brass and I have lost many cases through not annealing enough. So, two loads and I now anneal.

Cheers from New Zealand

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galenaholic posted this 16 May 2012

I have 20 rounds of .375 H&H brass that has been my cast bullet go to batch of brass for some time now. That batch of brass has been loaded over 20 times now using the RCBS #37-250-FN bullet which weighs 270 gr. in my alloy. After every fifh reload, I anneal the cases and do a full length resize. The other four loadings are neck sized only with a neck sizing die. The load for anyone interested is 49.0 gr. of IMR or H4895 with a 1.5 gr. tuft of dacron seated lightly against the powder. Bullets are not crimped which may help keep the necks from splitting. Crimping is not necessary as the rounds are shot in a Ruger 31 single shot with groups usually in the 1.25 to 1.50” range when I do my part. I have no idea of the velocity as I've never run them ovee the Chrony and recoil appears to be like a lightweight 30-06 to me. All in all a very pleasant load to play with. :cool: Paul B.

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CB posted this 17 May 2012

"For the Carcano I anneal every second firing simply because the Lee FL die I neck size with squishes the neck down to hold a .264 jacketed bullet (ID must be .262 after sizing) then the expander I had made open the case neck back up to .268 to take the .269 sized bullets. That REALLY works the brass and I have lost many cases through not annealing enough. So, two loads and I now anneal."

Jeff,

Have you measured the ID (or the OD and subtracted two thicknesses) after sizing down? If your die is like the ones I have for calibers where the collet die isn't available it is sized down a lot more than .262. That is the trouble is is easier for manufacturers to do that than hold close tolerances needed to have it just a bit smaller. lapping out the sizer to the correct size might eliminate the need for all that annealing. Just a thought.

John

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JeffinNZ posted this 17 May 2012

Probably is smaller John. I really should look at having the neck of the die ground out. No a job for any garage gunsmith however.

Cheers from New Zealand

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sharps4590 posted this 17 May 2012

I have 45 Colt brass of all manufacture that is at least 30 years old....and I have no idea how many times I've reloaded it. Certainly over 40 times. 8 grs. of Unique under a 250 gr. cast bullet, sizing die backed out to just size the mouth enough to hold the bullet in under recoil.

45-90 brass...I have no idea how many times it's been reloaded in the 20 years since I bought the rifle and brass. Black powder and cast bullets only. Only ones I lost was when my wife unknowingly dropped a couple in the garbage disposal and turned it on.

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JSH posted this 20 May 2012

Nice thread. IMHO annealing is about as much witch craft as casting is. Just that some of the gun rags make both look to be way over complicated.

As to annealing in my thoughts. It varies gun to gun and caliber to caliber. Yes sizing and loading techniques have a lot to do with it. But, why do we do one thing for one bottle neck case and not another? Probably because we found a certain way to over come a problem. I anneal for a few of my pet guns every 3rd time. Others I only anneal when cases get sooty.

I have read where one gent anneals every time? I would think that a bit of any over kill, but, hey if it works don't fix it.

One I am still playing with is my 6.5x55 swede. Chamber is so large for proper projectile size it is nuts. I size half of the length of the neck to hold the bullet. Still no accuracy to make me happy. So with a modified M die I belled the case mouth enough to hold the mouth in the center of the chamber while the bottom of the mouth was untouched. The trick for this rifle is to get the M die set and leave it alone. Then when seating the bullet, don't take the bell out as the bell supports the case mouth. Sounds nuts but groups are scary at 100M iron sighted. I anneal this one every time . jeff

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galenaholic posted this 20 May 2012

"Then when seating the bullet, don't take the bell out as the bell supports the case mouth. Sounds nuts but groups are scary at 100M iron sighted. I anneal this one every time." I have to wonder? With the belled mouth of the case sticking out like that, wouldn't that cause a problem feeding from the magazine or are you just single loading each round? Paul B.

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CB posted this 20 May 2012

Annealing is a per gun thing dependent on the chamber size, number of reloadings and how the case is sized and how often.

Brass can be 'work hardened'. each you move the brass without heat it gets harder. Cant say how much each time as that is again dependent on how much and how often you resize.

I have brass for my 308 that is only neck sized and I annealed it before the initial firing and about every 20 reloadings after that. I have not had a case failure since I made it new from 06 cases 7 years ago. Yes it is Lapua brass which I feel is a better grade than say Remington or Winchester brass.

It depends solely on what you need to do with it and personal preference. IMHO.

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JSH posted this 22 May 2012

Paul B yes the Swede is load single shot. But the bell is not overly generous, just enough mor to start the GC. Actually I found this out by mistake. I had no M die for 6.5 as this was the first 6.5 I ever owned. I did have a 270 M die and just bumped the mouth of the case with the nose of the 270 expander. Now that you bring it up I will have to go home and see if they feed from the magazine..............I suspect they will as the generous chambering in this particular rifle. FYI, I swore from the onset of casting I would never pour anything smaller than a 30 caliber,lol, never say never.

Very well put Jeff. I have necked down some brass in years past in order to “bush” up the neck to take some slop out of an overly large chamber. That was one of my first annealing and neck turning projects. It did work and very well at that. Nope ya can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but you can put lipstick on a pig to make them some what more appealing. Neatest trick I pulled off was on a 30x221 factory TC barrel. Chmaber was a bit large as seems to be normal with them. I was having a hard time with 221 brass. Then I did a bit of measuring and necking up some 223 and 222 brass. I got by with an alomost perfect fit using the 222 with no turning. The 223 did shoot as well but I had to do way more than just “shave” them. jeff

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galenaholic posted this 22 May 2012

"Now that you bring it up I will have to go home and see if they feed from the magazine..............I suspect they will as the generous chambering in this particular rifle."

I would suspect that if they do hng up it would be at the bottom of the feed ramp if there is any sort of lip.

“FYI, I swore from the onset of casting I would never pour anything smaller than a 30 caliber,lol, never say never."

I did too. Now I ever do .22's for my .223. :shock:

Paul B.

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