Approximately how many reloads it is it reasonable to expect out of new cases with the moderate pressures of most cast bullet loads.
What is your experience?
That type of failure is most common?
When do you throw the whole batch away and buy more?
How much will annealing extend case life and how often should it be done -- if at all?
John
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When I started shooting cast bullets, I was necksizing with standard full-length sizing dies backed off enough that they did not size the case body, and then using a Lyman “M” die to expand/bell the neck. I was getting neck splits at anywhere from 6 to ten reloads.
Now I use a Lee collet die to neck size, and the Lee belling die to open the case mouth the absolute minimum needed to get a bullet started. I don't know how many reloads I can get with this method, because I haven't lost any cases from neck splits yet - but it's a heck of a lot more than ten!
I don't like Lee molds, and I've had some bad machining on some of their dies, but I think that collet die is the best idea Lee ever had.
Incidentally, I do not anneal case necks. Don't seem to need to, because I'm not working the necks enough to work harden them.
Works for me.
Wes
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Hi John,
There a number of factors that can influence case life. With the often lower pressurues common with shooting CBs, the amount the brass is worked will likely be the limiting factor. If chamber and sizing die dimensions are not too far apart, then case life will be better than it will if one has a chamber on the large size and a sizing die that takes things down to a minimun. If you neck size only, then a bushing die with the correct bushing size allows to more closely match neck dia with bullet dia. help with case life. Brass does work harden and annealling will help, how much is an indivual decission, a number of BPCR shooters anneal after every firing. Myself, every 4-6 firings, BP or smokless.
When I started shooting pistol silhouette it was with a stock TC .30 Herrett and I learned real fast the importance of proper die adjustment. Early on I would see 3, sometimes 4 firings before case head seperatioin reared it's head. Once I figured things out, I lost cases due to split necks long before head seperation. When I stopped the pistiol silhouette game, the batch of 30 Herrett cases I was using was getting ready for the 23rd firing. Cases were sized in a Bonanza FL sizer, the load was 24 grs of H335 behind a 175gr 311291 running around 1750 fps from a standard 14” factory TC bbl. Not exactly a low preasure load.
I would cull cases as need be, when signs of head seperation or split necks cropped up, into the the recycle bucket the case went. No set number, some cases just wore out sooner than others. Some high-power shooters will toss the entire batch after the 4th time through their M1-A or M1, period, whether they look worn or not. If you are diligent in inspecting your brass after each firing you will soon get the feel for when is time to toss. Naturally as the cases become “older” the cull rate was higher than in newer brass. Hope this helps. Michael
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:coffee
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There is a lot of variation in case life related to cartridge type and loading method. I get my best case life with .458 Win Mag. I partially size with a full length size die so bullets seat with light neck tension, seat bullets with a .002” crimp and anneal brass case mouths every 8 loadings. Most of my brass has been loaded over 50 times. I generally push a 350 grain FNGC bullet at 1700 fps with 57.7 grains H4895 and BPI Original Ballistic Filler to the case mouth. The very few cases that have failed had small cracks midway and lengthwise on the case. I have had 4 failures in the last dozen years.
I am currently beginning to worry about case fatigue and considering all new brass.
Gary
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I am not experiencing case separations or split necks in rifle cases.
I am sizing with Lee collet dies or Lyman 45 rifle neck sising dies.
I use a 3o8 win chester neck sizer in most 30 or 303 caliber rifles because it has the largest diameter available.
In 375 H&H and 35Whelen I use Neil Jones neck dies in a press.
In straight walled pistol cases the Lee carbide dies resize the cases the minimum quantity necessary.
Lee can give you smaller diameter dies if you need them.
Ed Harris does not use the sizer die,he uses only the so called factory crimp die to size the loaded round.
I had some case failure with nickeled cases in 45LC peacemaker clones,but I think that the problem is the variations in chamber thickness in that antique caliber.
38,357 and 44 brass in non magnum loads ,cast bullet shooting with pressures last indefinitely.
I have some norma brass that I bough in the eighties and always shot wit cast in my 03A3 and USMOD of 17.Never had any need to trim them.
Case failure comes from too much full length sizing,pull through neck expanders and following the die makers manual of instructions.
Those books are are written to make you buy unuseful gadgets and case prepping tools ,and to avoid complaints as ” my cartridges do not chamber easily “.
Buy the best new cases available.instead.
Most long undersized nose rifle bullet moulds are designed to chamber easily,not for accurate shooting.
Setting dies and moulds right for the individual gun is not feasible in mass production.
PS.
Semiauto rifles in 308 or 762x39 or 223 need a different approach they are to be sized a little more aggressively, otherwise they might shoot out of battery .
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hi john ...since you mention the marvelous 222.... when i wuz 15 yrs, i traded my win 43/218 bee in for one of them rem 722/222 and a weaver k10 combo ...wow, how educational ...
anyway, at first my brothers would buy me assorted factory ammo, but quit when they figured out that they could never keep ahead of me.
i accumulated about 240 brass and by primer record count, loaded over 50,000 rounds from them. eventually the rims rounded off from that rem extractor. loads were almost all 24 gr ballc/2 and horn sx 50 gr..... a load just under warm. i never shot the barrel hot.
probably due to a lucky chamber, just neck sized mildly, and remained 3/4 moa almost to the end... never stress relieved necks, and yes had an occasional split neck ...but by then the rounded rims were making extraction iffy.
oh yeah, glass bedded action, and 3 inches of barrel, otherwise floating. and a g l herter maple stock (g).
speaking of cast bullets i have acquired a sako 308 sporter that shoots terribly...stock seems to vibrate against barrel .... i plan to pillar bed this rig and run cast thru it. always good to have a project...(g)
ken
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Approximately how many reloads it is it reasonable to expect out of new cases with the moderate pressures of most cast bullet loads.
With minimum sizing, hundreds of loads.
What is your experience?
I prepare cases in lots, a lot = ideally 120 cases. Prep 'em all. Load them all in order-rotate them so each is reloaded ~ the same number of times. When the first neck splits, anneal the lot.
That type of failure is most common?
Split necks. Never = never had a case head separation. Primer pockets get a little loose, but that takes many loadings.
When do you throw the whole batch away and buy more?
Never. I have a set of was 100 45-70 cases from ~1976 reloaded many times, there are ~65 (didn't count them) left and the work fine. Smokeless and BP, annealed a lot of times, split some necks + accidents and lost the rest.
How much will annealing extend case life and how often should it be done -- if at all?
See above. joe b.
John
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John, I'm still loading the same batch of Lapua .30/06 cases I bought in 2006. I only use neck bushing dies on them.
Most common method of failure. Off center loading in the shell holder
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Thanks for all the good responses. This thread could serve as a sort of survey of reloading practice which was my maine interest. It is nice to know what people are doing -- you always learn something.
The thread would also be profitable reading for anyone starting out in reloading. Lots of stuff here not in the manuals as pointed out above.
I will confess my own experience. I have been using Lee Collet dies since just after they appeared on the market -- at least for all the caliber that I load that they make one for. I have had little to no lengthening of brass and it never seems to wear out.
I got serious about finding out how long it would last and used 20 223 cases for most of my testing for a couple of years to wear it out. The first case failed at reload 184 (neck split) and I retired the lot after the second neck split after 218 reloads.
Like some above I have never had a case separation in any caliber.
As long as we are telling stories about old components I am still reloading a box of Norma 222 brass that I bought in 1959 (before collet dies it was neck sized only) I also reload my 270 with some WWII 4831 that I bought back a spell for way less than a dollar a pound. Of course I have had some other batches of powder go bad in the meantime but this stuff will still push a 140 grain Nosler to 3,000 fps (26” Ruger #1)
Thanks again for all the great answers.
John
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I have a lot of R-P .45-70 cases that I have been loading for 40+ years (bought them in 1959). Loaded them with both black powder loads and medium smokeless loads for my Springfield trapdoor M88. Of the original 50 there are 44 left after at least 100 loadings. I am not resizing, just re-priming, add powder, thumb seat .462 diameter boolit either paper patched or Lee Liquid Alox. I did anneal case mouths a few years ago just to be on the safe side. The more you work the brass, the quicker it fatigues. This same formula works with my 577-450 Martini Henry and 11.7X57R Danish Remington rifles.
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Is annealing worth while? IMHO absolutely.
Some of my .303 cases must have been fired 70-80 times with reduced loads. I use a Lee collet die and anneal about every 5th load.
For the Carcano I anneal every second firing simply because the Lee FL die I neck size with squishes the neck down to hold a .264 jacketed bullet (ID must be .262 after sizing) then the expander I had made open the case neck back up to .268 to take the .269 sized bullets. That REALLY works the brass and I have lost many cases through not annealing enough. So, two loads and I now anneal.
Cheers from New Zealand
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I have 20 rounds of .375 H&H brass that has been my cast bullet go to batch of brass for some time now. That batch of brass has been loaded over 20 times now using the RCBS #37-250-FN bullet which weighs 270 gr. in my alloy. After every fifh reload, I anneal the cases and do a full length resize. The other four loadings are neck sized only with a neck sizing die. The load for anyone interested is 49.0 gr. of IMR or H4895 with a 1.5 gr. tuft of dacron seated lightly against the powder. Bullets are not crimped which may help keep the necks from splitting. Crimping is not necessary as the rounds are shot in a Ruger 31 single shot with groups usually in the 1.25 to 1.50” range when I do my part. I have no idea of the velocity as I've never run them ovee the Chrony and recoil appears to be like a lightweight 30-06 to me. All in all a very pleasant load to play with. :cool: Paul B.
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"For the Carcano I anneal every second firing simply because the Lee FL die I neck size with squishes the neck down to hold a .264 jacketed bullet (ID must be .262 after sizing) then the expander I had made open the case neck back up to .268 to take the .269 sized bullets. That REALLY works the brass and I have lost many cases through not annealing enough. So, two loads and I now anneal."
Jeff,
Have you measured the ID (or the OD and subtracted two thicknesses) after sizing down? If your die is like the ones I have for calibers where the collet die isn't available it is sized down a lot more than .262. That is the trouble is is easier for manufacturers to do that than hold close tolerances needed to have it just a bit smaller. lapping out the sizer to the correct size might eliminate the need for all that annealing. Just a thought.
John
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Probably is smaller John. I really should look at having the neck of the die ground out. No a job for any garage gunsmith however.
Cheers from New Zealand
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I have 45 Colt brass of all manufacture that is at least 30 years old....and I have no idea how many times I've reloaded it. Certainly over 40 times. 8 grs. of Unique under a 250 gr. cast bullet, sizing die backed out to just size the mouth enough to hold the bullet in under recoil.
45-90 brass...I have no idea how many times it's been reloaded in the 20 years since I bought the rifle and brass. Black powder and cast bullets only. Only ones I lost was when my wife unknowingly dropped a couple in the garbage disposal and turned it on.
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Nice thread. IMHO annealing is about as much witch craft as casting is. Just that some of the gun rags make both look to be way over complicated.
As to annealing in my thoughts. It varies gun to gun and caliber to caliber. Yes sizing and loading techniques have a lot to do with it. But, why do we do one thing for one bottle neck case and not another? Probably because we found a certain way to over come a problem. I anneal for a few of my pet guns every 3rd time. Others I only anneal when cases get sooty.
I have read where one gent anneals every time? I would think that a bit of any over kill, but, hey if it works don't fix it.
One I am still playing with is my 6.5x55 swede. Chamber is so large for proper projectile size it is nuts. I size half of the length of the neck to hold the bullet. Still no accuracy to make me happy. So with a modified M die I belled the case mouth enough to hold the mouth in the center of the chamber while the bottom of the mouth was untouched. The trick for this rifle is to get the M die set and leave it alone. Then when seating the bullet, don't take the bell out as the bell supports the case mouth. Sounds nuts but groups are scary at 100M iron sighted. I anneal this one every time . jeff
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"Then when seating the bullet, don't take the bell out as the bell supports the case mouth. Sounds nuts but groups are scary at 100M iron sighted. I anneal this one every time." I have to wonder? With the belled mouth of the case sticking out like that, wouldn't that cause a problem feeding from the magazine or are you just single loading each round? Paul B.
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Annealing is a per gun thing dependent on the chamber size, number of reloadings and how the case is sized and how often.
Brass can be 'work hardened'. each you move the brass without heat it gets harder. Cant say how much each time as that is again dependent on how much and how often you resize.
I have brass for my 308 that is only neck sized and I annealed it before the initial firing and about every 20 reloadings after that. I have not had a case failure since I made it new from 06 cases 7 years ago. Yes it is Lapua brass which I feel is a better grade than say Remington or Winchester brass.
It depends solely on what you need to do with it and personal preference. IMHO.
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Paul B yes the Swede is load single shot. But the bell is not overly generous, just enough mor to start the GC. Actually I found this out by mistake. I had no M die for 6.5 as this was the first 6.5 I ever owned. I did have a 270 M die and just bumped the mouth of the case with the nose of the 270 expander. Now that you bring it up I will have to go home and see if they feed from the magazine..............I suspect they will as the generous chambering in this particular rifle. FYI, I swore from the onset of casting I would never pour anything smaller than a 30 caliber,lol, never say never.
Very well put Jeff. I have necked down some brass in years past in order to “bush” up the neck to take some slop out of an overly large chamber. That was one of my first annealing and neck turning projects. It did work and very well at that. Nope ya can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but you can put lipstick on a pig to make them some what more appealing. Neatest trick I pulled off was on a 30x221 factory TC barrel. Chmaber was a bit large as seems to be normal with them. I was having a hard time with 221 brass. Then I did a bit of measuring and necking up some 223 and 222 brass. I got by with an alomost perfect fit using the 222 with no turning. The 223 did shoot as well but I had to do way more than just “shave” them. jeff
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"Now that you bring it up I will have to go home and see if they feed from the magazine..............I suspect they will as the generous chambering in this particular rifle."
I would suspect that if they do hng up it would be at the bottom of the feed ramp if there is any sort of lip.
“FYI, I swore from the onset of casting I would never pour anything smaller than a 30 caliber,lol, never say never."
I did too. Now I ever do .22's for my .223. :shock:
Paul B.
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When I shot calibers which required tedious case forming - 40-70 PWC, 40-50SS, etc. I did anneal the case necks after several reloads. With the modern caliber brass cases I don't bother.
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This thread intrigued me when first read. A quest began that has provided at least one semi-extensive testing result. One thousand rounds of each in several different calibers were subject to careful and close observation. The caliber and cartridge brass is as follows; W-W super in 44 mag, WINCHESTER in 38 special, R-P in 357 mag, WINCHESTER super speed in 30-30 and FEDERAL in 30-06. Last week marked a batch failure so obvious a student remarked “you gotta be stupid not to notice". He was of course talking to me.
The R-P 357 mag batch has failed almost completely uniform. Not in the usual neck area as most would be. These cases have lost it in the primer pocket. Granted I do clean primer pockets every loading cycle and I suspect this to be the cause. There were 197 cases tossed during the test life for case splits. About half of the case splits were neck and half random splits somewhere in the case body. A handful found the scrap bucket via some oops in my reloading procedure. Gas bleeding at primer pocket produced a “dirty butt” casing. Also a reduction in muzzle velocity, lowered point of impact, gas erosion around the firing pin and gross exhaust buildup throughout the pistol. Although a relatively mild load, no deviation was ever made in the load during the entire testing period. Same brand primer, same propellant, same cleaning technique, same projectile, same reloading press and all were fired through the same pistol. Each cycle was subjected to random case inspection. This failure threshold happened almost in a single cycle. The “dirty butts” showed a twinge one cycle before mass failure. By count, each case has been used 47 times not including the failure cycle.
I just came in from disassembling the remainder of the batch rather than subjecting my pistol to the punishment rendered. I am a bit disgruntled at loosing perfectly good primers and using good time to reverse load.
The other calibers continue in the test and I will report my findings when available. To be honest, I was under a false impression of case life given my very careful attention to processing of brass. Considering how the brass failed may cause me to seek different options for case preparation. Any ideas?
Roy
Shoot often, Shoot well
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47 reloads from a magnum case is far more than anyone would have predicted. It's really very good. Were these cases nickeled by chance. If so how would a brass case compare? I ask because in my experience a nickeled case is brittle and fails much sooner than a brass case.
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Opps - I just scrolled up to read earlier posts and found your picture of the .357 brass - obviously nickeled! .>
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Hey Jeff
The cases are not nickel plated. Many years ago I also noticed nickel plated cases had a shorter usable life. Only 20, 30-06 cases were nickel plated in this particular test and they were thrown in the thousand for good measure. Although these are 357 mag brass, the load is more of a 38 special. In my Uberti, better accuracy came from the longer case. After fire forming, only enough case for effective projectile grasp was ever sized again. Being fired from a single shot also allowed for a .001 crimp. Reduced flare is another contributing factor to extending case life. For the 38 special cases, the powder charge is actually heavier and chronos a higher velocity. There are two particular revolvers being used for the 38 spl. brass life test and so far it is mostly neck crack failures from crimp and flare working. Of the 357 mag thousand case start, almost 800 were still being used. Just over 400 “dirty butt” cases showed the mass failure and I have pulled apart the remainder for salvage.
Another plus(I suppose)was priming the Winchester 38 special brass. The primer pockets in them are tighter than normal and had become more difficult with the onset of arthritis. My wife ordered a RCBS bench priming tool for me. I love it! She never seems to tire from being right. As the test progresses I will post results. My grandson is doing the 30-30 portion and I expect a lag soon as he is now a teenager and I am not as interesting as some other things shaking.
38 spl and 44 mag cycle count is lower due to my usage drop since selling our shooting facility but my test methodology is sound and will eventually give results to report. Til then.
Roy
Shoot often, Shoot well
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Hey Folks
This thread update concerns the 1k of W-W Super in 44 Mag. At 29 cycles, the lot has been reduced to 475 pieces of what I call usable. Unlike the obvious failure of R-P 357 mag brass, I noticed yesterday how little was left. Nearly all was cycled through my trusty Old model Super Blackhawk. My guess is a few hundred going through a different Old model Super Blackhawk that is my wife's. All were prepped identically, cause it works out that way. From new, they are neck sized only. Same primer, same load, same press, same cleaning procedure. Revolver loads need a crimp and nearly all cases lost were due to neck cracks. Only a handful had other failures.
The 38 spl results are yet to hit any significant point, but they show good overall durability. Other than 3 gallon of brass headed to the scrap dealer, I have only numbers to contemplate. I have yet to make it through a third cycle of either 30-30 or 30-06 and might not get a definitive answer, in my life cycle. Til the next report, cast on.
Roy
Shoot often, Shoot well
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I've got some 300 blackouts that were reformer from 223 that have over 50 reloads on them. I've also had brand new cases (winchester) split on the first firing. Depends on the gun, cartridge and how you reload them, but I am generally disappointed if I don't get at least 10 reloads.
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The old time Scheutzen era shooters lost cases because they would no longer hold a primer in the pocket... that was about 2,800 loads or so (from H. Donaldson). A CBC cartridge fit would allow about the same. I have two 40-50 Bottleneck cases that have seen over 500 shots a piece that look almost new except for things I did to set them up for a CBC fit. For most other things I loose cases from neck cracks after a long life.
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Like the accurate life of a barrel, many things affect case life. I seldom count the number of times a case can be loaded. I did recently throw a bunch of Winchester .38 Special cases in the salvage pile as I was starting to get split necks with that batch. I would guess they had been loaded twenty times or more, possibly much more.
I have never seen a need to anneal brass other than when I used to form .219 Zipper cases from .30-30 brass, but annealing certainly won't hurt anything if it's done right.
With rifle brass and cast bullets, I have no idea how many firings one can get, but it's certainly a lot, probably twenty loadings or more if one partially sizes and doesn't bell the brass too much. I've had few, if any, split necks using cast bullets in rifle brass, and I can't recall an incipient case head separation. Regardless, brass may be more expensive than ever, but amortized over its useful life, it remains a bargain. Some of us probably keep it longer than we should.
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Less neck tension and annealing allows bullet to be aligned better without binding when chambered. I anneal often. Some target shooters anneal after every firing I hear.
The only time I have had a piece of brass fail was when I loaded too hot, causing case head to swell and enlarge primer pocket.
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i am always amazed at shooters who relate only getting 5 or 15 cycles out of their brass .... the only brass i have ever worn out ... that by neck cracking because i didn't stress relief the necks ... were my 222 rem ...and that at over 100++ cycles of near-full loads ( 24 gr. ball-c and 50 gr bullets ) ... fwiw this with gentle tru-line jr. neck sizer and a 0.224 expander ball .
i have never shot any of my other rifles enough to have a case fail from over-work , even using 1942 brass . .... yet ( g ) .
i have ruined brass with too much size lube and too much primer chamfer tho .
i might mention i have seen factory ...winchester ... brass fail first shot out of the box ...
ken
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I'm still loading some .270Win NORMA cases that I got from from factory ammo about 1975. Using Jack O'Conner's load for the 150gr JACKETED bullet. Now it's a load too hot to repeat on the internet. I have 120 cases in 2 60rd boxes. each has been loaded 18-20 times. I've trimmed about 9 times and reamed only once, after the 9th loading. Haven't lost a case yet. I've only partial-sized them, never full length-sized yet. No sign of case head separation. I guess the rifle chamber/die adjustment just works perfectly in this one instance.
Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.
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Kinda like “how long is a piece of string?” (Answer: twice the length from one end to the middle).
I have 1942 vintage .303 British brass from Dominion in CA that appear immortal. Just keep annealing the necks.
Cheers from New Zealand
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Your question is both caliber and load specific.
With light loads and minimum sizing, cases can last practically forever with good brass.
I only anneal cases for case forming, I would rather buy new brass, but that is just me. Others take pride in cases going 50+ reloads, more power to them.
Some guns are hard on brass. Lever guns do not lock up tight and also need full length sizing, my 30-30’s never give the brass life of a 308 bolt gun.
I developed some full power 30.06 cast loads, case life was the same as like loaded jacketed bullets, it is the load that makes the difference,
Some cases 45 Colt, 38-40, 44-40 are very weak or brass is poor and case life is short, some like 44 Special and 308 Winchester last much better.
In pistol cases cannelures are bad, lead to premature case body splits. I have also had bad luck with nickel plated cases, but this may be just small sample chance.
Split necks or mouth splits cause a flier for that round.
You should cull brass before and after reloading. Mouth splits can happen in the crimping step, which can be hard to see. Minimum crimping or taper crimp minimizes mouth splits.
In used cases, a split may occur on firing which will give a flier. This is only a concern in big game hunting or competition where every shot counts. Hunters and match shooters should be using good brass fired only a few times. Most of my shooting is practice or plinking shooting, I ignore the incipient mouth split problem, it is too small to worry about.
Steve Hurst
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Still a very interesting thread. I did not go back and read ALL of the post again, so sorry if this was brought up.
The majority of my brass is tailored and shot in a specific gun, period. Folks that use xxx ammo in various different guns,chambers suffer the most losses. I have some “generic” ammo that I am not concerned about searching out every piece for that lot. On the other hand some of my pet load brass I will search for like a duck after a June bug. Jeff
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