is the 311413 as bad as iv'e heard?.

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  • Last Post 16 June 2015
adrians posted this 23 May 2012

Morning ,

I have had this mold for a good while and haven't used it because i've read some unfavorable things about it at “higher vel” ,i.e over 1600 fps.

Is this true? .... if so Why ?.,,,,,:dude:

I think i'm going to try it in 3 rifles ( ishapore 308,, 1916 spanish,, FR8 spanish,,.).

Any help here would surely be appreciated .

p.s . i am a little recoil, sensative (glass right shoulder) so 1600 and under is just dandy with me :thinking:

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RicinYakima posted this 23 May 2012

The issue is the long undersized nose. Some rifles with short throats, and long loading, will shoot it ok. Most rifles will shoot it at 1200 f/s or less. Some rifles and loaders can get it to shoot very well, but not many. There are easier bullet designs to work with. HTH, Ric

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adrians posted this 23 May 2012

Thanks Ric , i have a handful of 30 cal molds and use them all in various rifles but this one was just sitting there so i thought i'd ask about it, you explained it nicely for me ,thanks. Now i have some cast and sized i don't know whether to try and make them work or “re-cycle” them,,,,, what to do,,, what to do.

Adrians.

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Fg1 posted this 23 May 2012

Hmmmmmmmmm.....wonder about a 7.62x39 ? Doesnt the 413 come in 165ish grs?

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madsenshooter posted this 26 August 2012

I've tried harder alloys, slower powders, etc. It was an exercise in frustration to get the B&M 311169 going any faster than 1500fps with accuracy. I can't say what it is, something about the bullet's center of gravity. At 1450 or so one can shoot golf balls at 100yds and hit them pretty regularly. Go faster and you might hit 2 or 3 targets away from where you're aiming. Same with Hensley's version of the squib, even though it has an extra band on the front.

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linoww posted this 26 August 2012

I have had one for a long time and up to about 1300-1400 is shoots OK.Without a GC at 1100-1200 it did well too.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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madsenshooter posted this 27 August 2012

Had my cutdown Krag out yesterday making little rocks out of big rocks with the B&M 311169. They hit where I was aiming with the 6x scope. Load is 11.2gr of VV10B101, powder out of 50BMG plastic training ammo, which burns about Blue Dot or 2400 speed. Powder only cost me $7/lb from Jeff Barlett.

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cbshtr posted this 27 August 2012

I have had this mold for years and has always shot pretty good in my o3a3. It may not win a benchrest competition but it didn't shoot patterns either. In fact, I flattened the point, loaded it over a max charge of 2400 for 1900-2000 fps and shot my largest deer (7 point, 165 lb) with it. With the rounds I had left over I could still get 3” groups at 100 yards without cleaning. Don't know if it was that particular mold or gun but I enjoy using it. Unflattened, it shot probably in the 1 1/2” range with about 18 -19 grains of 2400. I would have used it in one of the regional matches but I had other molds that shot better. I see them on ebay all the time but have no desire to part with mine.

Robert Homan

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tominct posted this 16 September 2012

cbshtr wrote: I have had this mold for years and has always shot pretty good in my o3a3. It may not win a benchrest competition but it didn't shoot patterns either. In fact, I flattened the point, loaded it over a max charge of 2400 for 1900-2000 fps and shot my largest deer (7 point, 165 lb) with it. With the rounds I had left over I could still get 3” groups at 100 yards without cleaning. Don't know if it was that particular mold or gun but I enjoy using it. Unflattened, it shot probably in the 1 1/2” range with about 18 -19 grains of 2400. I would have used it in one of the regional matches but I had other molds that shot better. I see them on ebay all the time but have no desire to part with mine.  Hi cbshtr, just a quick question. Is your 03a3 a 2 groove barrel? Maybe that's the reason it does well.

 

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cbshtr posted this 16 September 2012

No, it was a 4 groove. The barrel was fire lapped too much with the throat starting close to .313. It tapered down to maybe .310 at the muzzle. The bore was very smooth. I haven't shot it in several years so I would have to try to duplicate the loads to see if I still get the same results. I've been working on my Marlin lever guns lately so I don't know when I'll be getting back to the o3a3.

Robert Homan

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JeffinNZ posted this 17 September 2012

Would it be better suited to tight throated K31's?

I know that Harrison wrote alot about how poorly the bullet shot post 1400fps but then again some of Harrisons works don't stand up there days so testing would be the order of the day.

Cheers from New Zealand

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argie1891 posted this 17 September 2012

Would it be better suited to tight throated K31's

i tried it in 2 k-31's and it just didnt work. yes the nose is small but it gets too big to fast for the swiss. I havent sold my mould as i keep thinking i might find the one 30 caliber that would shoot it better than anything. only problem it is the last bullet i try to get a rifle to shoot. i just never get to the 311413 before i get one to shoot. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Ben posted this 25 September 2012

The 413' has always been accurate for me. You just can't ” hot - rod ” it.

The bullet got a bad rap after the war by people who knew very little to nothing about what a cast bullet was capable of.

Many tried to shoot the bullet at 2,700 fps out of Springfields and Garands . When the bullets wouldn't stay in a garbage can lid at 100 yards, those shooters declared that the 413' was a bad cast bullet.

No complaints from me on the 311413.

16 grs. 2400 in the 30 / 06 , 5 shots , 50 yards.

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.22-10-45 posted this 25 September 2012

1+ on what Ben posted. I have used this bullet in both an 1898 Krag & 1903 Spring. Back when I could really see..it would group around 1” at 100yds.

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adrians posted this 25 September 2012

Ben Now that's one nice ragged hole there, i don,t shoot the 06 but,,,,, would the same 16 of 2400  perform o.k in my 7.62's ? .

I have read "The Load” article a million times < thx Mr Harris> and was curious if you have used the 413 in any .308's.

.22-10-45

You mentioned the Krag , i loaded some of these bullets for my sporter Krag (1896) but pulled them without trying any because i “read somewhere” that this design was a dud .>.

apparently not :shock:.

Got any advice for me regarding my beloved Krag ? :)

 

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chuebner posted this 25 September 2012

My K31's really like that bullet over 9gr. of Red Dot.  Velocity is around 1200fps.

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linoww posted this 26 September 2012

I had one i plain based about 15 years ago.I accidentally opened the rear band to about .316 while taking out the GC shank.Sized the band to .312(remainder .310) it shot well in a 308 Ruger varminter.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Castaway posted this 16 October 2012

Ben,

I just joined this forum today and this is my first use of the forum.

I have had my #311413 mold since the 60's and have only used it so far in my .303 British.  I saw your target and comments and was impressed.  Are you using any filler in your loads?  My latest load was 18gr 2400 with cream of wheat filler- very disappointing.  Any comments? 

Thanks, Castaway

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tturner53 posted this 19 October 2012

Sounds like a bad combination to me. The 311413 is known to be cranky in American .30s. A .303 with probably a much bigger throat and groove diameter will likely not shoot this bullet well. For a cheap mold that's more in line with a .303 check out Lee's designs for the .303 British. COW and 2400 doesn't sound like a good idea either, IMHO. 2400 shouldn't need a filler anyway. And welcome to the forum Castaway, you can learn a lot here.

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Norman posted this 12 June 2015

New member and have learned a lot. I have a Ideal mold 311403 and have done some checking and found out that it is a Pope designed bullet. Any other information would be greatly appreciated. Plan to use in 30-06 and need a powder and load suggestions. thank you

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billglaze posted this 12 June 2015

The 311413 is the first rifle mould I bought, back in 1952. Some very good High Power competitors I knew through Smallbore used the Squib, numbered then 311169 by Lyman. These High Power guys were very exacting guys, and used the bullet at the 200 yd. stages; believe me, they wouldn't have been using it if it hadn't performed well for them. They shot Springfields. When I started loading it in my 30-30 Savage, I tried to get it to shoot too fast. Bad idea. Abandoned the whole idea. My original mold got lost, (several moves of residence and a divorce manage to thin out your possessions) and until last year, I did without. I picked up a 311413 mould on ebay last year, and I have had pretty good results in 3 different rifles; 2-308's and an '06. So far, the best powder seems to be my latest “discovery” Red Dot. The latest grouping with 8.0 gr. of powder, put 7 out of 10 in less than 1-1/4 “ with the other 3 opening it up to ca. 3". Another group shot with 7 gr. was similar. 6 out of 10 in one ragged hole, other 4 opened the group to another +/- 3". Chrono. read 1276 avg, 30 e.s., S.D. 5 (!)
As the other folks say, (and Lyman also) if the velocity limitations are observed, the bullet will do a pretty good job, IMHO. Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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frnkeore posted this 16 June 2015

There a couple of thing wrong with the 311413. 1. Unless you get a “U” marked mold, it most will cast at least .313, .314 with lino. to much to size down for most 30 cals. 2. The GC is set way to far back from the driving band and the higher velocity/pressure loads, deform that long  unsupport area. If you watch Ebay close, you can find the “U” molds, as well as “S” and “EX S". My EX S casts .306 in 20/1, the S .308. The U's will cast between .309 - .310, depending on alloy. I have all the Lymans, plus the H&G and B&M, I only lack the Modern Bond, Herter and Yankee versions. Everyone that made molds, I believe made a “Squib” mold. My best results with it is in my .310 groove Krag, Redfield rear sight, using a mold that casts .312.  18.5 gr 4759, gave me a 1 1/2” group at 100. Frank

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frnkeore posted this 16 June 2015

The 311413 EX S

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