enlarging the bullet mold to make a larger bullet (2 cav mold)

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  • Last Post 11 June 2012
Beans posted this 09 June 2012

IIRC I read somewhere that you could increase the bullet size of mold but can't remember where or how.

I have a Lyman mold 311284 that is casting a bullet between .309 and .310. I would like to have a .312 or .312 I like the bullet but would like it better if it were larger.

1. Somewhere in the darK recesses of my mind I remember about inserting something into the mold pour a bullet around it then removing the bullet coating the bullet using some valve grind compound reinserting the bullet back into the mold and start to lapping out the mold.

2. Something else was putting a spacer?? between the mold halves to increase the bullet size.

On #2 would not this make the bullet our of round?

On #1 What would you put in the bullet to provide a “handle” to be able to rotate the bullet with valve grinding compond on it and what grit Valve granding compound would your use?

Or are these just ol wives tales????????

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onondaga posted this 09 June 2012

Beans:

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Beans posted this 09 June 2012

thanks I will give that a try.

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6pt-sika posted this 09 June 2012

I'm hesitant to remove metal from any type mold . And typically what I have seems to work just fine left alone .

 

I have however seen more then a few fellows talk about taking heat resistant metal tape of some type or another and putting on the inside faces of the blocks with cutouts of course for the actual bullet . And they claim to have good success with this method . I've never tried that either but one things for certain if it doesn't work that way all you have to do is remove the tape and any adhesive residue . If you don't get the aluminum mold right with whatever you use to lap it with and remove to much you darn sure can't put it back .

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6pt-sika posted this 09 June 2012

Beans wrote:

2. Something else was putting a spacer?? between the mold halves to increase the bullet size.

On #2 would not this make the bullet our of round?

If you talk to any “decent” machinest or tool and die maker they'll tell you there is no such thing as a perfectly round hole . The last company  I worked for did alot of machining and operated in Microns rather then thousnadths of an inch . When you take readings on some of the bored holes that were kept in 10 microns you could see some rather strange looking holes at 100-200x magnification .

But lets not digress to much !

I truely do not think the slight out of roundness the tape will make is going to make that much difference after you lube size the bullet itself .

And if it's critical enough to where thats an issue you'd be far better off to order a custom mold from one of many mold makers you hear mentioned on this site !

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JeffinNZ posted this 09 June 2012

I would send it Erik at www.hollowpointmould.com as he will enlarge driving bands and his works ROCKS.

Cheers from New Zealand

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John Alexander posted this 09 June 2012

Nice explanation Gary.

Where can I get dental pumice?

John

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Pigslayer posted this 09 June 2012

JeffinNZ wrote: I would send it Erik at www.hollowpointmould.com as he will enlarge driving bands and his works ROCKS.

Thanks for that info as I have one the needs the foward band extended by .080.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 09 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander,

Here is one source for a small quantity of Dental Pumice:

http://www.net32.com/ec/dux-dental-pumice-flour-non-fluoride-stain-d-110230?utm_source=Windfall&utm_medium=ProductFeed&utm_content=dental&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping>http://www.net32.com/ec/dux-dental-pumice-flour-non-fluoride-stain-d-110230?utmsource=Windfall&utmmedium=ProductFeed&utmcontent=dental&utmcampaign=GoogleShopping

There are many other searchable shopping sources, but getting it in a small 1lb size is not so common. Actually for laboratories, I ordered it in 100 lb bags!

I worked in the Dental Lab industry and just have it around. I also use it in gun stock finishing on a wet rag to remove the high shine from a stock and make an egg shell finish before waxing.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 09 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer,  "I have one the needs the foward band extended by .080."

I am not sure about extending a band forward, you can increase a single bands  diameter, That can be done, but extra care will be needed in applying the abrasive paste. I'd recommend a tiny artist brush for application to the one band and of course the meticulous water flushing between abrasive cycles.

You could not cut a new square end or tapered end for a lengthened band with the pumice method.

This method can also be used to enlarge the base shank area of a bullet mold for a tighter fit of gas checks with likewise careful application and cleaning.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 09 June 2012

Don't give up if buying Pumice is the only thing keeping you from trying this project! Go to a nearby creek or river and collect a small amount of fine, evenly textured silt sediment from the shore. That will work fine.

You only have to mix a small amount of liquid detergent and abrasive for the job. I actually use a teaspoon and a toothpick to mix. Consistency should be like toothpaste.

Gary

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tturner53 posted this 09 June 2012

The 'spacer' method is called “beagling” and is an ok way to get a fatter bullet. Lots written on the beagling. I have tried it all and have found just biting the bullet (!) and ordering a mold that casts the desired size is the answer for me. NOE of Utah makes a nice 311284 clone a bit larger than the Lyman version. At least with my copies of each. For a custom job try LBT. It is fun to play with the cranky molds, I mess with some old single cavity Lees that give .298 noses.

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onondaga posted this 09 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1088>6pt-sika:   The method you mention with shiny aluminum adhesive duct sealing/repair tape is called  “Beagling” and named after a member on Castboolits forum. Beagle there developed and posted tutorials on his method.

"Beagling” done to his instructions works fine to about .002-.003” diameter increase and then sizing back .001-.002” for a total gain of .001-.002” diameter gain.  If you push it past that the out of round amount becomes problematic.

An update on the original Beagle Method can be found halfway down this page:

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_4-0_ModifyCastBullets.htm>http://www.lasc.us/Brennan4-0ModifyCastBullets.htm

How To Beagle Bullet Molds is the name of the article. The method works well within the intended limits and is easily removed from your mold if you change your mind. Other methods including a slug/mold similar to the type I pictured above are discussed in the article also.

Gary

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6pt-sika posted this 09 June 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1088>6pt-sika:   The method you mention with shiny aluminum adhesive duct sealing/repair tape is called  “Beagling” and named after a member on Castboolits forum. Beagle there developed and posted tutorials on his method.

"Beagling” done to his instructions works fine to about .002-.003” diameter increase and then sizing back .001-.002” for a total gain of .001-.002” diameter gain.  If you push it past that the out of round amount becomes problematic.

An update on the original Beagle Method can be found halfway down this page:

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_4-0_ModifyCastBullets.htm>http://www.lasc.us/Brennan4-0ModifyCastBullets.htm

How To Beagle Bullet Molds is the name of the article. The method works well within the intended limits and is easily removed from your mold if you change your mind. Other methods including a slug/mold similar to the type I pictured above are discussed in the article also.

Gary

My own take on the whole thing is pretty much I refuse to deface/alter whatever one cares to call it any of the molds I own or will purchase in the future . Since the majority of what I purchase now are custom molds made to my specs “there is” no reason to alter them after recieveing them . If they don't do what was expected of them I'll just send them back to the maker and have them do it . So far I've not needed to do that .

I will occasionally buy an “obsolete” mold that was made by say Ideal , Lyman or whomever and again I refrain from altering them . And so far they've all worked for the application they were purchased .

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onondaga posted this 09 June 2012

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6pt-sika posted this 09 June 2012

onondaga wrote:

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6pt-sika posted this 09 June 2012

JeffinNZ wrote: I would send it Erik at http://www.hollowpointmould.com>http://www.hollowpointmould.com as he will enlarge driving bands and his works ROCKS.

I thought he only HP'd existing molds . I wasn't aware he did that as well !!!!!!

Learn something new every so often ;)

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John Alexander posted this 10 June 2012

Thanks Gary.

I will have to give that stuff a try. I have been using valve grinding compound of various grit sizes but they make the mold hard to clean multiple times in order to cast trial bullets.

I am surprised that they describe it as “flour” because that seems to imply something finer that the 300 grit you mention.

John

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onondaga posted this 10 June 2012

John, Shop around, dental abrasive products tend to use qualitative descriptions rather than grit sizes. Get what you think you'd be happy with. Try River silt! You can feel what it is for free before you use it for free. 

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 10 June 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer,  "I have one the needs the foward band extended by .080."

I am not sure about extending a band forward, you can increase a single bands  diameter, That can be done, but extra care will be needed in applying the abrasive paste. I'd recommend a tiny artist brush for application to the one band and of course the meticulous water flushing between abrasive cycles.

You could not cut a new square end or tapered end for a lengthened band with the pumice method.

This method can also be used to enlarge the base shank area of a bullet mold for a tighter fit of gas checks with likewise careful application and cleaning.

Gary 

 I checked out Eriks website and it states that he can add a front band to a mold and in that I would imagine that he can extend one. I sent off an e-mail to him with pics of the cast bullet & mold to get his opinion.
 My mold is made by Tom@Accurate Molds & he did recommend Eriks service in this case. Although I am now getting really good accuracy with this bullet when “seating to the lands", it is not seated as deep  in the case neck as originally intended. I want to get rid of the crimp groove also as I don't need it.
 Although I have cast & shot pistol bullets for 40 years with incredible success, this was my first “experiment” with cast rifle bullets. Cast rifle bullets are a different ball game. But . . . the exhilerating payoff comes when first you find a solution and second when the bullet in question “hits it's mark” repeatedly as mine has after finding the right sized diameter & “seating to the lands". It's pretty cool when one finds themselves getting jacketed bullet accuracy with a cast bullet.
 Now I'm just playing & being nit-picky by altering my mold.

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 10 June 2012

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

For me, seating to the lands is just the beginning of accuracy, and I will go longer from there with COAL and engage the lands as far as .080” with cast bullets if function is good and bullets don't get pushed in or pulled out.

I don't know how you lube, but I tumble lube everything with 45:45:10 Recluse and  appreciate an unused crimp groove to hold more lube!

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 10 June 2012

onondaga wrote: http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

For me, seating to the lands is just the beginning of accuracy, and I will go longer from there with COAL and engage the lands as far as .080” with cast bullets if function is good and bullets don't get pushed in or pulled out.

I don't know how you lube, but I tumble lube everything with 45:45:10 Recluse and  appreciate an unused crimp groove to hold more lube!

Gary

For this bullet I am pan lubing. I opened my .314 Lee sizing die up to .315 with an incredible difference in accuracy. I don't care for tumble lubing especially with Lee Alox. I find it dirty, smelly & smoky . . . . yuck! Even though I know it does work well. I recently made my own lube for the first time and I found success! It's clean, no noticable smoke & leaves my barrel shiny. My lube consists of 1 1/2 lb. beeswax, 1 lb. vaseline, 5% carnuba flakes & 5% Ivory soap. As far as seating, my seating depth was to the point where the bullet just began to be marked then I backed it off maybe 1 to 2 thou.. Seems to be working well. I see what you mean about using the extra crimp groove for holding extra lube. I was actually going back & forth about keeping it or not. I think I'd better keep it. Thanks, Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 10 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer:

Sounds great. I live about 8 miles from the ALOX factory in Niagara Falls, NY and on a hot day when they are running production, I can smell it in the yard if the wind direction is right.. I am not sure if they still do but if you are a bullet caster they will give you up to a pint free if you bring a container to the parking lot and ask one of the workers....I have done that twice years ago after a friend told me about their generosity to bullet casters. It is at least an interesting product that was developed as a high pressure spray rust preventative  undercoating for the automotive aftermarket sold under several product/service names nationally.

The 45:45:10 dries nearly clear and very non tacky when warmed before application and also warming the bullets too before application. with both warm the drying time is 5 minutes or less!

 I use it up 2550 fps with cast .223 bullets. I begin to lose accuracy before that but the lube does not fail and bores are shiny bright when bullets fit correctly oversize .002-.004". I use it on.223 Rem. 30-30, 7.62X39, 30-06, 375 H&H, .458 Win Mag and .500 S&W rifle. If I had more calibers, I'd use in them too. Oh, I do use it on Buckshot also.

Gary

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Pigslayer posted this 10 June 2012

onandaga, Just got word from Erik & he said that extending the forward band by .080 won't be a problem. Yahoo!!! $25.00 setup fee & $5.00 per band. I'm a happy camper!!

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 10 June 2012

Go for it!

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Canuck Bob posted this 11 June 2012

Eric did similar work for me on a 32 Remington mold that I had him enlarge and extend the forward band for a 32 Special. Very precise work and excellent advice.

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runfiverun posted this 11 June 2012

instead of dish soap try tooth paste as the carrier,it stays in place better. and a whitening tooth paste alone will cut aluminum and will remove burrs and polish a mold, on it's own. you can use a dry wall screw and a hot mold with lapping compound to round out a mold or to open it. i opened a 429667 mold from 428 to 430 over the course of a week using water dropped boolits and a pretty hard alloy. go slow and re-try/measure often.

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