Another PB Accurate Mold

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  • Last Post 14 August 2012
pat i. posted this 13 June 2012

Below is a new PB mold I had Tom at Accurate cut for me hoping I can finally get a plain base bullet to shoot in a fixed cartridge. I haven't had much in the way of luck with the two previous attempts I made with bullets sans gas check so decided to design my own with the hope of success. I plan on using this mold in a 30-06 Win Model 670. What I did was download a print of Tom's clone of the Saeco 315 and went at it with a Photoshop program I have. My print was a little rougher than Tom's cataloged print pictured below, 31-190B, but the design was there.

Using a chamber print I figured the 06 throat tapers .001 for every .020 in length, or thereabouts. Using that as my starting guide I made the .050 wide front band .303, dropped back .100 from the front of that band to the front of the next and drew that at .308 by .100 wide. I finished up with two .310 bands. One .070 wide and the base band at .100 wide. The grease grooves are all .050 to be able to use one or more if needed without flooding the thing with grease.

The bore ride section is drawn at .300 but in this gun I needed .301 or a bit more. Tom's tolerances are -.000,+.0015 on the body and +.000,-.0015 on the bore ride section. My experience has been that he runs close to the minimum on the bore ride section and right on on the the body so I ordered my mold “Body As Drawn, .3025 Bore Ride Section” and got a bore ride section at .301 and the rest right on the money.  

I don't plan on trying a lot of powders right off the bat and for the moment am sticking with Bluedot for the simple reason that I have a pound and a half of it and there's no reason it shouldn't work if everything else is right. P-wads seem like a good idea and I'm using Wilson dies and a single case for loading so my kit will be minimal. I have some ready to go with one lube groove filled with LBT Blue which should be more than enough lube. Alloy consists of water dropped WW. Some people might say that's too hard but I use water dropped WWs in my 32 S&W Long and don't have a problem. Will try the gun tomorrow morning and report back.

The whole purpose of this little project is to take a minimalist approach to shooting in the new Hunting Rifle Class while being competitive. I was a big advocate of this class and hopefully can get something together to show that you can get by with the bare minimum in equipment and work and use something you already have sitting in the cabinet. The gun is as sold with nothing at all done to it except adding a 36x Weaver scope and the equipment used to get the bullet ready is next to nothing. I'm using a lubesizer with an oversized die for lubing convenience but wouldn't have any trouble at all pan lubing. I'm also using a Lee push through die to size to .3095 but don't know if that's necessary or not considering the bullet casts at .310. I just like to size bullets for some reason and had a die laying there that sizes to .3095 when using water dropped WWs. Everything I need to shoot a match fits in a small tool box and either clamps or sits on the bench when shooting.

Print and bullet are below. 

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CB posted this 13 June 2012

Almost looks like an Eagan MX3 without a GC.. Let me know how it does, what weight are you geting out of the mold?

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pat i. posted this 13 June 2012

The bullet weighs 190 grains out of wheel weights hence the name 31-190B, although I don't know what the B stands for. Could you post a picture of the MX3 since I don't know what it looks like? I'll post the good bad and indifferent of how it does tomorrow sometime after I get home from the range.

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nimrod posted this 14 June 2012

Wow! I sure like the looks of that one. Will be watching to see how this one goes.

Richard

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CB posted this 14 June 2012

I have to go to the docs this morning, I think I have about 2000 of them cast up and will get a pic for you.

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John Alexander posted this 14 June 2012

Pat,

Nice looking bullet.

I like the concept of your project to come up with a method that can win in hunting rifle class with the minimum of investment and a minimum of loading operations.

That fits right in with our discussions about the concept and purpose of such a class seven or eight years ago when the it was only a gleam in our eyes.

Good luck with the new bullet.

I hope to be competing against that M-670 in September.

John

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pat i. posted this 14 June 2012

Took the gun and bullet out today for a trial run and the results are pictured below. Seven 5 shot groups and one ten, actually nine since I had that one go wild. While except for that one group these aren't earth shattering they are a vast improvement over what I was getting with the other bullets I tried. I haven't chronographed the load yet but imagine it's in the 1400s somewhere. I also don't know what the charge weighed but figure it's somewhere between 11 and 11 1/2 grs of BlueDot although I could be off here. Now that I know the thing has the potential to shoot I'll mark the cavities so I can segregate and index the bullets into the chamber along with playing around a bit more with the load. I'll also bring some flags and my chronograph to the range next time I go. Altogether I shot 50 rounds without cleaning or checking for leading so I'll get my borescope out first to have a look and then give it a good cleaning.

Still the hardest thing for me so far is finding a proper bench technique to control this beast. Jim Searcy had an excellent article in the last FS about working with a hunting class rifle and the part about working off the bench was great. For myself though I found instead of laying my thumb along the side of the stock I have to put light pressure with my thumb on top of the comb. My thumb, shoulder, and trigger finger are the only things I had touching he gun. I had to make doubly sure the pad of my hand wasn't touching the side of the stock or I had wild flyers. Once the scope lined up I lifted my head and looked along the side of the scope so there'd be no contact between my fat face and the stock also.  

Lots to learn and lots to try which is making this a fun and interesting project and while I'm always open to suggestions and conversation I'm going to be a bit abrupt with people who say “Why don't you just do this?". If what they say is all it takes to make a fixed case PB bullet shoot competitively in hunting rifle shoulder to shoulder matches, which have the distinct disadvantage of being measured and witnessed, why don't they do it themselves?

I'll add to this topic with more specific data and report on the results of segregating and indexing next time I get to the range.

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Pigslayer posted this 14 June 2012

pat i. wrote: Took the gun and bullet out today for a trial run and the results are pictured below. Seven 5 shot groups and one ten, actually nine since I had that one go wild. While except for that one group these aren't earth shattering they are a vast improvement over what I was getting with the other bullets I tried. I haven't chronographed the load yet but imagine it's in the 1400s somewhere. I also don't know what the charge weighed but figure it's somewhere between 11 and 11 1/2 grs of BlueDot although I could be off here. Now that I know the thing has the potential to shoot I'll mark the cavities so I can segregate and index the bullets into the chamber along with playing around a bit more with the load. I'll also bring some flags and my chronograph to the range next time I go. Altogether I shot 50 rounds without cleaning or checking for leading so I'll get my borescope out first to have a look and then give it a good cleaning.

Still the hardest thing for me so far is finding a proper bench technique to control this beast. Jim Searcy had an excellent article in the last FS about working with a hunting class rifle and the part about working off the bench was great. For myself though I found instead of laying my thumb along the side of the stock I have to put light pressure with my thumb on top of the comb. My thumb, shoulder, and trigger finger are the only things I had touching he gun. I had to make doubly sure the pad of my hand wasn't touching the side of the stock or I had wild flyers. Once the scope lined up I lifted my head and looked along the side of the scope so there'd be no contact between my fat face and the stock also.  

Lots to learn and lots to try which is making this a fun and interesting project and while I'm always open to suggestions and conversation I'm going to be a bit abrupt with people who say “Why don't you just do this?". If what they say is all it takes to make a fixed case PB bullet shoot competitively in hunting rifle shoulder to shoulder matches, which have the distinct disadvantage of being measured and witnessed, why don't they do it themselves?

I'll add to this topic with more specific data and report on the results of segregating and indexing next time I get to the range.

Here is my Accurate bullet for the 7.62 x 54R GC. I was having trouble in that it was all over the target at 50 yds. I was seating to the crimping groove & not to the lands. My bore is .313 & I sized to .315 & after seating to the lands, here are the results.

Pat Reynolds

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Paul Pollard posted this 15 June 2012

Pat,

A couple questions:

  1. What are you using for wad material? How thick?

  2. How much neck tension are you using? Is it loose or tight?

I'd say that barrel is shot out! :wow:

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Pigslayer posted this 15 June 2012

Paul Pollard wrote: Pat,

A couple questions:

  1. What are you using for wad material? How thick?

  2. How much neck tension are you using? Is it loose or tight?

I'd say that barrel is shot out! :wow:

The 7.62x54R is a Mosin Nagant & it takes no wad. Neck tension: moderate. Barrel shot out . . . no. The 7.62x54R shoots incredibly well with 150 gr., .312 dia. jacketed. It's just been a chore in getting cast to work well but am finally having success. One has to keep in mind that the groove diameter of that rifle varied widely from .308 all the way to .316, depending on who manufactured it. This rifle was built in 1942 and Hitler was breathing down the Rutskies necks. Update: Sorry Paul, no worries. Though that you were talking to this Pat. My mistake.

Pat Reynolds

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Paul Pollard posted this 15 June 2012

Pigslayer (Pat),

I didn't realize your name is Pat. Thanks for your reply, however, my comments were asked of Pat I. He would know about the “barrel is shot out” comment. We had a discussion about temperamental rifles; just when you think they're shooting well, they're not.

Paul

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Pigslayer posted this 15 June 2012

Paul Pollard wrote: Pigslayer (Pat),

I didn't realize your name is Pat. Thanks for your reply, however, my comments were asked of Pat I. He would know about the “barrel is shot out” comment. We had a discussion about temperamental rifles; just when you think they're shooting well, they're not.

Paul

My mistake. Sorry.

Pat Reynolds

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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pat i. posted this 15 June 2012

From the other Pat.......

Paul I'm using Neco P-Wads at the moment and I believe they're .060 thick. I have a Cornell wad making die but I bought it specifically to use in my 30x47 bench gun and it's got a tight neck so the wads just fall into this thing. If, and that's a big if, this little project comes along I'll look into picking up another Cornell since I have a lot of wad making material and it's a great tool. I'm running .002 neck tension at the moment but will try different buttons down the road. So many things to try, so little time.

You're right on the mark about the barrel being shot out. What surprised me is that it got completely shot out in only five rounds!! I'll have to check the throat and wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it now extends all the way to the muzzle. Not to worry though because I'm having my friendly custom mold maker fabricate a set of 23 and a third inch tall blocks so I'll be able to design a bullet to reach the lands in any situation. All I need to figure out now is what to attach to the forklift I just ordered to use as handles. 

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CB posted this 15 June 2012

Pat I have a 32-20 wad punch from cornell, I weould be happy to punch a few out for you to try..

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pat i. posted this 15 June 2012

Jeff I'd really appreciate that. When I was looking at the tools last night I was wondering if the .315 punch would work better than the 30. Definitely save me a headache by being able to try them before buying. Don't need many and thanks for the offer.

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CB posted this 15 June 2012

I get punched up and in the mail this weekend.

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pat i. posted this 19 June 2012

Found another picture from my last outing. Everything you need for a day at the range.

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CB posted this 19 June 2012

Where is the lunch box and cooler??

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pat i. posted this 19 June 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote: Where is the lunch box and cooler?? Both are in a little bar about 10 miles down the road. A man needs to unwind a bit after a tough day at the range. :)

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CB posted this 19 June 2012

Ah yes, either a beer and pizza...

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pat i. posted this 20 June 2012

Took the gun out for another go at getting it to shoot. I would have had better luck with a full auto AK47 shooting out of the back of a Toyota pickup going 60 mph down a gravel road. After driving the 50 miles home cussing out just about everything known to man I decided to clean up my equipment before going next door to kick the living crap out of that neighbor who stands on his porch and eyeballs me every time I'm cutting the grass at 6am on a Sunday morning, sissy must not understand that if you cut early you beat the heat and get the rest of the day to yourself. I only use one piece of brass for all my reloading in this thing and when I was wiping off the neck I noticed what I have pictured below. WTF!! Do things like this only happen to me?? I've driven the 50 miles to the range and when I went to get my bullets I remembered they were sitting on the counter at home. I spent a day fitting and chambering a barrel only to step on the only patch of ice within 100 yards sending me and the barrel sailing with the barrel landing right on the brand spanking new threads. In the heat of a match I picked up a bullet that dropped on the ground and loaded it into a brand new Shilen barrel making what used to be an 8 groove into a 9. And that's just the things that come to mind at the moment. Either I have terrible luck or I have to start paying attention to what's happening around me because this is getting to be a pain.  

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6pt-sika posted this 20 June 2012

I'm a bit curiouse about your bullet design !

I realize you're messing with this design for benchrest exclusively . But would you think this an acceptable bullet (with a gas check base) for use in an 06 for deer ?

 

I ask because I have a 1963 or so 700BDL 30-06 I'm gonna try TrueShot 200 grain RN GC bullets in to see if the guns worth the effort of getting a mold . I originally had thoughts of the Lyman 314299 sized to .312” . But for some odd reason I like the looks of this or an Eagan MX-30 .

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pat i. posted this 20 June 2012

Beats hell out of me but I don't see why not. That is a .180 meplat up front. You could either add a .090 check shank to the existing design making the bullet about 1.160 long after adding the check or take out that .070 band and one lube groove and add a .100 long shank to the bottom keeping the length and weight about the same or a bit less.

Even with 20 BNH lead the lands engrave all of the .303 band and half of the .308 band with .002 neck tension. The .301 nose barely touches up front when chambered but has to be pushed to get it into the muzzle. If I was going to order this bullet again and from my limited experience with how Tom cuts molds I'd probably order the front band .304, the second band at .309, and the bore ride section at .3035, at least for this rifle. Remember the tolerances are -.0000,+.0015 on the body and +.0000, -.0015 on the bore ride. I only have a couple of his moulds but on these he seems to be right on the money with the body and closer to minimum on the bore ride. But don't take anything I say as gospel because it's only been my experience based on a couple of moulds. No matter what else was decided upon I'd make sure I ordered the bore ride at least .3025. I ordered mine at .3025 and got a bore ride section at .301

I designed this thing to have three points of contact when chambered in an 06 throat and it seems to work, at least that part does, so I don't think you'd need to size .312. According to chamber prints the opening to the 30-06 throat is .3106 so why go any bigger than that if the bullet's held straight to the bore by three points of contact up front. I like the 299 for certain applications but if you decide on one of the Lyman moulds you might be better off with the 284 for your Remington.

Just my opinions so no squawking please.

 

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Paul Pollard posted this 21 June 2012

What would the split neck cause as far as accuracy is concerned? Does this mean your neck tension and engraving is no longer what you thought it was? Were you using wads with the split neck? I'm not trying to be funny, just trying to understand what this does. I've been playing with neck tension on mine also (not a .30-06) and trying different wad diameters. Right now, I'm using the wad to offer resistance to the rifling force when chambering. I'm also using a case mouth expander which is the same as the bullet diameter. In this way, there is not any neck tension. Part of the reason for doing this is because gas checks keep stripping off or are getting partially cocked on the base of the bullet. With no tension, maybe they'll stay put.

By the way, did you keep those targets shot from the back of the Toyota, fired from the AK? I'd like to see them.

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pat i. posted this 21 June 2012

Paul I don't know what the split neck does but obviously it ain't good. I'm using a Wilson die and the bullet doesn't seat below the sized portion of the neck so there'd be no neck tension or engraving at all that I can see. I thought the bullets were seating mighty easy compared to before but heaven forbid I should actually take a look and see if something wasn't kosher. I was using wads. If it was a high pressure load it might have less effect because the body and shoulder of the case woiuld seal things up I'd imagine but these are pretty slim in the pressure dept. so it might make more of a difference. I'll find out tomorrow when I try it again using a case without the custom split.

Craig, If I was going to base a gas checked bullet off the design I'm using I'd probably go with something like what's drawn below. I'd imagine the short one would go around 185 grs in WW with the check installed and the long one around 225 or so. I'd definitely order the bore ride at .3025 on either bullet. If I was going to pick one for hunting and was going to be loading out of a magazine it would probably be the one with the check shank added to the existing bullet because it would fit deeper into the neck. The prints ain't pretty but they're usable.

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CB posted this 21 June 2012

Hey Pat, if you have luck like that, would you be as kind to pick me some lottery numbers?

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Pigslayer posted this 22 June 2012

joeb33050 wrote: Pat; What are your reloading steps? Thanks; joe b.

Wrong question & bad timing Joe.:thinking:

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 22 June 2012

Pat, I have no doubt that you'll find the solution. I pulled my hair out until I got my 7.62x54R to shoot cast accuratly. Three molds later, two of them custom made & I got it. I've been watching this thread closely and look forward to seeing you find an answer. I'm pretty new to cast rifle shooting so this is a good learning experience for me. Hell of a good tutorial.

:dude:

Pat R.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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CB posted this 23 June 2012

It appears to me that Joe has deleted all of his posts, so I removed them, just incase someone has a question and thinks that we are all talking to ourselves.

I think you may have pissed him off Pat, I am sure it wasnt the first time, nor will it be the last.

Now back to case failures....

Shit happens, nothing is perfect including cases, particularly cases that have been fired more than once.

I would be interested if you had more than one case that did this, but if it was only one, I would focus on your main objective of getting the darn thing to shoot!.

PS Havent forgot about the pwads, they are coming, I forgot where I put the damn punch, one of the many benefits of getting older I guess.

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pat i. posted this 23 June 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote: I would be interested if you had more than one case that did this, but if it was only one, I would focus on your main objective of getting the darn thing to shoot!. I've used the same case since I started so something would have to give eventually. I should have paid better attention but in reality it's no big deal. I think I was just pissed at myself for not noticing it and wasting money on gas and supplies shooting it.

I don't know why Joe would be pissed about anything. When a person takes great pride in being sarcastic and aggravating they have to be accepting and gracious when they get the same thing back. I guess if he removed his posts because I pissed him off he goes on the long list of other people I've pissed off and that's that. The sun will rise and the birdies will chirp tomorrow morning just like every other day.

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CB posted this 23 June 2012

Hail to the long list buddy!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 23 June 2012

re:  highschool harriet comes to castbullets ....

i done been cba member for 30 years, and don't recall anything approaching the recent level of panty-wadding and phart-sniffing (mis- ) behavior.

how about we lighten up; everybody posts a dumb/wrong/thoughtless post sometime or other, but it would be a shame to blow up what is now the very best forum for fresh and generally useful dope re: serious cast bullet shooting.

i do recall that a few years ago one of my favorite groups.....9mm largo ....( i had 3 astra pistols and a destroyer carbine.. )   .... we even had some posters from spain, who were researching spanish sources for information ....anyway, a few individuals got into a trivial hissy fit which grew into a mushroom cloud of nastiness....and the list just dissolved....yuk....

could   not    happen here .. .. .. ?

or maybe it is all due to disappearing free wheel weights, and billet lead approaching $3 per pound...(g)

ken

0

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pat i. posted this 23 June 2012

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think things have been bad at all lately. The forum seems to be running smoothly and everyone for the most part seems to be getting along just fine as far as I can tell. I don't think the little back and forth between Joe and I is any cause for concern that the forum is going to blow up. There's been a lot more smoke and fire in the past and we persevered.

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6pt-sika posted this 24 June 2012

pat i. wrote:  I don't think the little back and forth between Joe and I is any cause for concern that the forum is going to blow up.  

 

In my always biased opinion you didn't say anything to him that many others haven't wanted to say in the past !

 

But then I'm not sure what he said as I put him on my “ignore” list a couple weeks ago :cool:

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CB posted this 24 June 2012

Gotta love that ignore button, shame I dont get to use it...

Anyhow back to getting Pat's gun to shoot.

I wonder if maybe you could run a bit of that JB bore cleaner up and down the barrel a few times to remove all of the gkick if that would be of any benefit.. Sure fixed me up today. I shot in my first match in over a year and shot relatively well for being out of practice a 385 with some X's for a 100/200 agg in production class. I scrubbed it out pretty good before I started this morning.

Jest a thought...

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6pt-sika posted this 24 June 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote:  I shot in my first match in over a year and shot relatively well for being out of practice a 385 with some X's for a 100/200 agg in production class.  

I realize a perfect score would be 400/40x . But am I wrong in assuming most anything over 375 is decent  for a production gun ?

 

Also what should I expect as acceptable in a Hunter Class rifle ? Would anything over 325 be decent ?

 

I'm kinda loosely basing my numbers on what I see from macth results in the FS .

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pat i. posted this 24 June 2012

I agree that if anyone is interested we should get back to talking about getting a plain base cast bullet shooting half way decent. Don't know if I'll do it but someone might and I'd like to hear about it. Next time out 2400 is on the agenda. Let you know what happens.

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linoww posted this 24 June 2012

I shot 2400 in my Springfield with PB and never got it to shoot has well as i thought it should.I used 10-11G.Curious how it does for you.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 24 June 2012

George I'm going to start at 13 grs and work up.

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linoww posted this 24 June 2012

Maybe i needed more powder? I believe 10-11g was about 1200fps in my 30-06 with a 180g-190g bullet.I got good accuracy with other loads up to about 1250 then the closer i got to 1300 it fell apart.But then i had the stupid 311410 at 1450 shoot about 2” 10 shot groups.i shot three 10 shot groups and all were nice and round.It did it one range session and never repeated.I'm still PO'ed i never could do it again as i bragged about that load to a lot of people.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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tturner53 posted this 24 June 2012

Hi Pat, thanks for sharing your project with us. I've enjoyed reading about your experiences. Particularly because I'm on a somewhat similar track with a CZ 550 30-06 and the Saeco #315. My results so far have not quite equalled your best groups but I have high hopes of getting it down to about MOA. Hope springs eternal. My impatient nature does not allow me to load at the bench as you are, although I can see the obvious advantage. My 315s wear Gator cheks so do not have the plain base issues, but it is a similar bullet style, all I believe having their roots in the old Lyman 311403 H. Pope design. With that in mind I've read everything I can find about this bullet and found some references by 'ol Frank Marshall in the Fouling Shot. The one thing I picked up so far is it seems to like a fairly soft alloy. My stash of 315s is either linotype or ww+1% but I'm going to try some 50/50 ww/pb and may even go sans gas check for a Hunter postal match load. Currently using Red Dot and will try Trail Boss just because I think it's potential has not been explored that much so far. One thing that came to mind when I saw your drawing was I'd try a light tumble lube on that bore ride section. Good luck with the effort, see you in the funny papers!

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pat i. posted this 25 June 2012

Tim you should think about starting a topic to chronicle your adventures with the 315. Not only would it be an online journal for your own future reference but it would tell another story that not everyone can pour x amount of any powder into a case and shoot 1/2 inch groups. Up to this point I think I'm one of the few internet commandos that can't and I could use some company. 

I'm going to try 2400 tomorrow and will post my results.

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JimmyDee posted this 25 June 2012

Jeff Bowles wrote: It appears to me that Joe has deleted all of his posts, so I removed them, just incase someone has a question and thinks that we are all talking to ourselves. Huh.  Miss a day, miss a lot!

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tturner53 posted this 26 June 2012

Will do. The 'chronicaling' part struck a nerve. Last night I was researching some load info and found myself two years ago searching the same thing and doing the same thing like it never happened. ??? Oh well, there's an upside to lack of memory power, I can reread my The Fouling Shots over and over and it's fresh stuff to me! I gotta start writing this stuff down, maybe keep a log.

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CB posted this 26 June 2012

Naw just do what I do, write it on a piece of paper and toss it in a pile. That will give ya something to do tomorrow..

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linoww posted this 26 June 2012

Tim-

11-12 of Trailboss in the 7.62 x 54 with 160-220g plainbase has worked well for me.i tried it in the 30-06 with the 308403 Pope bullet finger seated and never got it to shoot well??

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Pigslayer posted this 26 June 2012

linoww wrote:

Tim-

11-12 of Trailboss in the 7.62 x 54 with 160-220g plainbase has worked well for me.i tried it in the 30-06 with the 308403 Pope bullet finger seated and never got it to shoot well?? I'm having good luck with 23 grs. 5744 in my 7.62X54 with a 200gr. GC bore rider from Accurate molds.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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pat i. posted this 26 June 2012

Back to the range today for my next aggravation session. This time it was with Alliant 2400. I worked the load up and down a bit from it's initial setting of 14 grs. and settled on 14.8 as it showed the most promise. The results of the 14.8 gr load is pasted below and while they're not record breaking they ain't horrible which gives me hope.

Up to this point I've been using Federal 215M primers but on a whim brought some Win LP to try out, big mistake and the group really opened up. The 215s brought it back together as well as they are. Odd thing did happen though. Two more necks on the Lapua cases split. One with about 25 shots through it and the other with only 5. I have some new Winchester cases so will try to pick out a few that have good necks to try. I'm not sizing that much and am surprised the necks split so fast. At least I now have split necks on my things to watch for list so caught it right away. I'm leaning towards the opinion that the less neck tension the better. Just enough to keep it from falling out of the case when turned over and shook a bit but no more. A larger P-Wad would be helpful and maybe Jeff will solve that problem with the .313 wads he's sending me. I did have some flakes and one pretty long strip of lead when I cleaned it at the end of the day so will add cleaning after every 10 shots to my list of things to do. 

Overall I'm not too disappointed with the day. A new chronograph was delivered today to replace my old Chrony that gave up the ghost and I look forward to seeing how fast these thing are going. I'll give 2400 one more try and then move to a slightly slower powder. Post back after my next attempt

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Pigslayer posted this 26 June 2012

Maybe I overlooked it, but I'm just curious. Are you shooting at 100 yds.? That .909 group looks pretty good if at 100 yds..

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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pat i. posted this 26 June 2012

All shooting since I started this has been at 100 yds. That one group is alright but doesn't mean squat. Ed Doonan used to tell people when they'd show him a small group “Now show me the ones you shot before and after that one".

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linoww posted this 27 June 2012

nice 200 yard groups.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 27 June 2012

Smart Ass!!

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linoww posted this 27 June 2012

were they at 50 yards then?

Seriously it looks like you are getting a  nice  group often enough to keep at it.I am curios of the velocity of that 2400 load once you get your speedometer set up.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 June 2012

mr. I. ... interesting that your pistol primers gave larger groups....could you chrony some pistol;p loads and see if wide velocity spread ?

if so, then we guess not enough ignition power...if velocity is close ....uh ....  dang ....  barrel not tuned?    you would think 2400 would ignite easily.

i like this thread...why do those breech-seaters do so good (usually  ) with plain base...heck, we are only hanging out another 0.15 or so..

hey do you suppose its really the rifling pre-forming...i got to shoot a pope false muzzle when i wuz young, been trying to shoot plain base good ever since...

if i ever get my shop organized, think i will try some pre-rifled bullets ...whatcha think ?

just wonderin'  ken

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pat i. posted this 27 June 2012

Ken next time out I'll chrono some loads with the pistol primers and let you know what happens.

I was thinking about this last night and came to the realization that I have no idea what a realistic goal should be with PB bullets in this type of rifle and cartridge. Most of what I've read on the web and in magazines seems to relegate plain base bullets to the plinker category whatever that is. What kind of accuracy and velocity determines a plinker? Has anyone, besides the usual internet group that seem to be able to shoot anything well enough to win the Super Shoot, ever got one of these things to shoot good groups consistently? If so what did they consider good groups?

Most of what I've been able to find about shooting PB bullets in 30 cal. rifle cartridges has been about being able to get pb bullets to shoot without leading but not much on how they shot accuracy-wise.

What would people consider good consistent accuracy in this case. 

 

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CB posted this 27 June 2012

An interesting thought here, the military shooters are using a saeco 315 with about 19grs. of SR4759 and getting good results. I know the bullets has a GC, but when I shot with Mike Christopher and his bunch down in Phoenix I recall pulling the trigger and waiting to hear the thwack when the bullet hit the target. Perhaps it could be a velocity issue? The gas check is to help prevent the virgin gas from melting the base of the bullet. If the bullet completely fills the bore to the bottom of the grooves then that would also prevent the base from melting. Putting a PWad behind the bullet should also help in preventing this, provided the PWad is of the proper diameter. I was under the impression that the PB shooters breech seated to properly align the bullet to the bore. The advantage using the modified 357 case was case capacity. If you knew what the freebore dimension was and what the throat angle was, it makes sense to me that you should be able to get the gun to shoot as well with a PB Bullet as you could with a GC Bullet with a similar load. Have you tried to shoot GC bullets yet so you have data to compare too? Perhaps the gun is shooting as well as it can or by rare chance has a messed up barrel from the factory. I am sure you have seen that happen before. Shoot some jacket ammo, GC Ammo and then your PB bullets and see what you get. Then you will be able to set a realistic goal.

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tturner53 posted this 27 June 2012

This thread inspired me to get off my butt and commit instead of just getting ready to commit. I sent in my postal match entries yesterday including #18, 200 yd. combined, 'Hunting” class. For grins I'll experiment with some plain base loads for that match. I have very few pb molds, a .22 RD and a .358 RD mold, but will try some gas check designs minus the cheks. #18 is a 'scope only' match with no power restriction. Would it seem odd to have a 36X on a Marlin lever action? Bad form?

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Pigslayer posted this 27 June 2012

pat i. wrote: All shooting since I started this has been at 100 yds. That one group is alright but doesn't mean squat. Ed Doonan used to tell people when they'd show him a small group “Now show me the ones you shot before and after that one". Was just asking. I can shoot 1/2” groups all day long with jacketed at 100yds but this cast rifle stuff is a different ball game altogether! It sure as hell ain't plug & play! Thought that I was doing good in getting my 1942 Mosin to shoot 1” 3-Shot groups at 50 yds. with cast bullets. Guess I got a long way to go.:dude:

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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pat i. posted this 27 June 2012

Jeff I think part of the reason it's hard to get PB bullets shooting well in a gun like this using a fixed case are the ones you mentioned. No breach seat and a large case with a small dose of fast burning powder flopping around in it. I also think the longer barrel time adds to the mix. Especially with production guns with their crappy triggers, skinny stocks, and in my case a big old honkin cheek piece sticking out the side. There's also the velocity issue you mentioned but unfortunately there's no getting around that without adding a check which is not happening for obvious reasons and I don't think I'd find a hole on the paper if I tried to use a load similar to what you can get away with with a checked bullet. Comparing this bullet against a jacketed or gas checked bullet would prove useless because this one is pb and is going to stay that way. I used to have long discussions with Ed Doonan and said the same thing you said, a pb bullet should shoot as well or better than a gas checked bullet, but that was before I started shooting one. There's nothing wrong with the barrel and it always shot jacketed bullets very well which is one of the reasons I picked it. An 06 has no freebore and I do know the throat angle which I designed the bullet around. The current throat might not exactly match the chamber print due to wear but the bullet engraves just like I expected it to so it's close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades. What I'm looking for is other people's results shooting fixed case pb bullets in production or military rifles. George Damron can't be the only other guy that's tried it and anyway you'd think he was blind in one eye and couldn't see out of the other the way he shoots so I don't pay much attention to anything that comes out of his pie hole except when I'm feeling sorry for him and fake it. But he's probably used to certain people “faking it” with him by this point. 

Tim it wouldn't be bad form if you could find a way to mount the Hubbel Telescope on that 336 as far as I'm concerned so go for it. If you want to do some serious companion testing with me I'd send out the mould for the bullet pictured below for you to try out. I don't know how it would work in a 30-30 but you could try it.

Pat for all you and I know getting your MS to shoot inch groups at 50 yds is good. I'm not shooting a Moisin and a quick look through the military matches didn't show a lot of other guys shooting one either. That's why I'm looking for some people that have shot pb bullets in an 06 case so I can hear how they did and how they did it. I don't want to set my expectations too high or too low.

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CB posted this 27 June 2012

I take it that is round with bullet you are shooting.. May I ask why you bothered to turn the neck? Was it that far out?

Still I have returned to shooting, I have a Rem 788 in 308 and I have had the mold for a year, cast the bullets but havent sized them yet. I plan on undertaking a similar PB project.

On the shoots jacketed okay... I had a Savage in 308 that would shoot 5/8 inch groups with jacketed but 4 inch groups with GC bullets and that is the best it would do. Since it was a single shot action I bought another new 308, took the barrel off of it and put the new barrel on the single shot action. Sold the one that wouldnt shoot cast to a high power guy who loves it.

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pat i. posted this 27 June 2012

That's not the bullet I'm using and the neck's turned because it was an old military case I dug out and cleaned up a bit before switching to Lapua.

I have no concern about the barrel and it's not really doing that bad when put in perspective. I think something that's throwing me off is that for the last I don't know how many years I've shot and shot against nothing but Heavy rifles with their 3 inch forends 14 pound weight limits 2 ounce triggers custom throating and tapered bullets and the groups you can get out of them is what I'm used to. This is a whole new ball game which is why I'm looking for examples of what people are actually shooting. I suppose the best way to go about it would be to look at what Jim Searcy's doing since he's the guy to beat at the moment and try to do a little better and maybe that's what I'll do. Don't know if I'll make it or not but at least it's a respectable goal, or if not respectable at least a goal to shoot for.

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Pigslayer posted this 28 June 2012

Pat. Buy a Mosin & try that one on for fun. I don't think that it was my best first choice for cast rifle bullets. I almost gave up. But as I say I actually got it shooting pretty good at 50 yds. Now for 100. The throat on my MN is eroded some & the barrel is eroded some to two inches behind the muzzle. For fun I'm going to cut the muzzle back & re-crown it. Luckilly the best part of the barrel is shiney bright with very strong rifling. When I shoot .312 dia. 150 gr. Hornaday jacketed it performs very well but hell, that's no fun! I wish I had the expertise in cast rifle shooting that you do but I'm learning. I used to be a High Power jacketed recoil junkie right up until I broke my darn neck in a car accident. Haven't fired the belted mags since. It's for the best in that I'm having a hell of a lot of fun with cast rifle & flintlocks! Just wondering but not suggesting . . . have you tried any 5744? If you were close I'd give you some to experiment with. Wouldn't want you to go out & buy a pound & then not like it. Lyman has loads using 5744 all over their new manual. I'll be watching your progress. :coffee

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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pat i. posted this 29 June 2012

I have some 5744 along with some 4759 but haven't gotten there yet. I have a couple of things to try out with the 2400 next time I go out and don't want to do too may changes at once.

I was looking at two MNs yesterday when I was at Cabelas, 110 bucks each. I have a 44 but didn't clean it after shooting surplus ammo one time and the barrel's a mess. I still have over three 440 round tins of the stuff sitting in the garage so should probably get one to shoot up the ammunition I have or sell the stuff to finance something else. That M44 kicked like a mule and my SKS outshot it by a long shot so I didn't mind that I trashed the barrel.

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muley posted this 29 June 2012

Pat, this is a interesting site. could ur twist be to fast for the plain base? in proportion the plain base boys shoot a larger caliber, but also a slower twist. just some thought. Jim

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pat i. posted this 29 June 2012

muley wrote: Pat, this is a interesting site. could ur twist be to fast for the plain base? in proportion the plain base boys shoot a larger caliber, but also a slower twist. just some thought. Jim Jim in my personal opinion a 10 twist is too fast for any kind of 30 caliber bullet jacketed or cast but since this is an off the rack hunting rife I have to dance with the one I brung.

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CB posted this 29 June 2012

Hummmm.. a 10 twist huh, how long is your bullet overall? I have experimented with different length bullets extensively to get my PRO gun to shoot.

I have a PB bullet that is pretty long, I will send you a couple of dozen when I ship the wads.

It is a .311 what is the diameter you are using?

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pat i. posted this 29 June 2012

The bullet's 1.060 long but I don't think that's a problem, if I really am having a problem considering that if I threw out the largest and smallest group from my last range session I had an inch and a half agg for 4 five shot groups. I just don't think a 10 twist barrel is the best choice for what we're doing and a 12 would be better. It's pretty obvious, at least on our forum, PB bullets in fixed case ammo isn't something that's been explored a lot lately so there's really no base line as to what anyone should expect accuracy-wise.

I've also played around with bullets and twists all the way up to a 1.385 long 250 gr bullet out of a Mos mold in the 30 PPC case. In fact I set a 10 shot 200 yard record with it shooting my HVY gun in the UNR class while in Oregon a long time ago. The gun was wearing a 10 twist Shilen. I also have a 1.425 inch long 260 gr Mos 30 caliber mould but it never shot as good as the 250. My reamer cuts a chamber 1.500 long and I trim the brass to 1.495 so either bullet's almost as long as the case. Looks pretty neat.

My current bullet is the one I want to use in a gun I already have so while I appreciate the offer for the bullets I'll take a pass on you sending them. I could chase bullet molds and guns til I'm blue in the face but that would defeat what I'm trying to do here. Believe me it was hard when I was at Cabelas the other day not to put money down on a Savage in .308 with the Accutrigger and stock but that once again would defeat the whole purpose of this excersize.

I truly do believe I'll get this thing shooting pretty decent in the end but it might take a little more work than I'm used to.

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norm posted this 05 July 2012

Pat, I did a fair amount of plain base vs gas check bullet comparison some years ago. A Lyman 321297 two cavity mold that had the gc shank bored out to a325 base band in one cavity. Compared them in a pair Marlin 336 carbines chambered for 32 Special. The most memorable thing was how at about 1400 fps muzzle velocity the plain base groups went from 3-4 inches at 50 yards to only half the bullets staying on aTQ-4 target which is about a foot square. I used up odds and end of the medium to slow pistol powders I had on the shelf and also used powder as slow as 3031. I wrote the results up and Glenn published it in the FS. I can't tell you which one since my back issues are 300 miles away. One other thing I found is SR 4756 is a pretty fair rediced load powder and I've been using it a lot. Great to see you are still tilting at windmills.

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pat i. posted this 07 July 2012

norm wrote: Great to see you are still tilting at windmills. Have to try to keep it interesting Norm.

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runfiverun posted this 08 July 2012

i have been kinda following this. i'd just plain out try a load at about 1300 fps. and pan lube. thats all. maybe slightly work the alloy to make the nose scuff more or less.

then work on the neck of the cases. for consistency.

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pat i. posted this 08 July 2012

runfiverun wrote: i have been kinda following this. i'd just plain out try a load at about 1300 fps. and pan lube. thats all. maybe slightly work the alloy to make the nose scuff more or less.

then work on the neck of the cases. for consistency. If it was only that easy. I'm sure that if I did exactly like you suggest I could make the gun go BOOM and make some holes in the paper but I want to try to get this thing shooting well enough to be competitive in the CBA hunting class, which will require 5 shot group aggs of around an inch, while keeping it cost effective and relatively simple. Just loading up something to 1300 fps and pan lubing would definitely take care of the simple part but I don't know if it would handle the accuracy part. At least it hasn't for me up to this point. 

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linoww posted this 10 July 2012

getting a few good plainbase groups and getting a consistent competitive load is the hard part.I tried and failed but have some good wall hangers groups to post on forums.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 10 July 2012

One of the best 10 shot groups i ever did with the 308403 Pope bullet in my 30-06 p-17

then look at the lower group.Same day load etc.....Drove me mad!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 10 July 2012

I found another picture of some groups when all was well with my plainbase 30-06 P-17.I shot some smaller groups but this was about as good as i could average.

Data on target.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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4060may posted this 10 July 2012

Pat Looking thru some old Fouling Shots Rich Hoch did a lot of testing with PB bullets Three articles FS 65-13, 68-15, 69-9 are specific to Plain Base fixed ammo

Hope you have these

Chuck

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Pigslayer posted this 10 July 2012

4060may wrote: Pat Looking thru some old Fouling Shots Rich Hoch did a lot of testing with PB bullets Three articles FS 65-13, 68-15, 69-9 are specific to Plain Base fixed ammo

Hope you have these

Chuck

Being that I am relatively new to shooting cast bullets for rifle, I have a question. Is better accuracy obtained if using a gas check when shooting cast for rifle? Hope this doesen't sound stupid.

 

Pat Reynolds

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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tturner53 posted this 11 July 2012

Not neccessarily better accuracy, just easier.

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pat i. posted this 11 July 2012

4060may wrote: Pat Looking thru some old Fouling Shots Rich Hoch did a lot of testing with PB bullets Three articles FS 65-13, 68-15, 69-9 are specific to Plain Base fixed ammo

Hope you have these

Chuck Thanks Chuck. I don't save Fouling Shots once I've read them because I have enough stuff laying around and don't need any more but will see if I can dig up the articles somewhere. Now that I'm getting the electronic version of the magazine maybe I'll start saving them to a disk.

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4060may posted this 11 July 2012

I could scan the articles  and send them to you but I'm not sure that is allowed Chuck

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pat i. posted this 11 July 2012

Heck yes it's allowed and would be appreciated. My email address is [email protected]

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nimrod posted this 11 July 2012

I would like to see them too PLEASE!

Richard

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pat i. posted this 11 July 2012

nimrod wrote: I would like to see them too PLEASE!

Richard

Rich if Chuck emails me the scans of the articles before the secret organization of CBA Brown Shirts decend on him and make him and the scans go byebye I'll forward them to you. But then again if he goes byebye for offering to send them to me and I just offered to send them to you maybe that means I'll go byebye too!!

If I never post another thing to this thread would someone be kind enough to call Dean's Milk Company and ask if they have space on the next batch of milk cartons for a fat bearded half bald redhead with a bad back and rotten vision??.

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4060may posted this 12 July 2012

I'll do my best to get them done in the morning

I would put a bunch of goofy smiley faces if I knew how

Chuck

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nimrod posted this 12 July 2012

pat i. PM sent

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4060may posted this 12 July 2012

Pat look for them in your email sent as a PDF

Chuck

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pat i. posted this 12 July 2012

Got them. Thank you very much Chuck

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linoww posted this 13 July 2012

You got me motivated to try plainbase in my “new to me” 30-40 Krag Ruger #3 with a 24” heavy 8 groove 1-10 Shilen. I had some 308403 Popes and some 190g Modern Bond 311-1145 around so i loaded 10 of each for a trial..Both were sized .309 and alox lubed.I used 10g of TrailBoss as 11-13 had been good with the Bond bullet in my 91-30 Mosins.

Not mach winning but it shows promise.It was a bit of a cross wind and the groups showed this.I'll do a re-shoot in the AM with the SAECO #540 and #529(both 180ish flat points)

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 13 July 2012

Nice work George and I like the shape of that lower right hand group. Very creative.

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linoww posted this 15 July 2012

took it out yesterday.No wind and horrible groups.I bumped up the charge to11g because i was too lazy to adjust it when i reset the measure.I doubt the 1g did it.I shot the modern bond and SAECO FP and an unknown 230g RN i have no clue what they were.they were tipping.

target explains it all.No bueno.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 15 July 2012

George don't feel bad I went out shooting this morning and did about the same as you. I didn't bother to take pictures because it wouldn't have been worth it. There's got to be some secret to these bullets because you can do the same exact thing you did last time and the results go from half way decent to horrible for no apparent reason. I'll just keep at it and see what happens. If nothing else it'll keep me humble. Next time out I'll try some 5744.

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linoww posted this 18 July 2012

This AM out with 10g TrailBoss and three bullets.This time sized in a .311 die.

Top  Lyman 311410 HP (30 carbine bullet) never expected much but i occasionally get it to shoot in some rifles.

Middle SAECO #630 (140g FP) group three had a low shot that was REALLY a called shot.I was a bit surpried this light one did well.

Bottom SAECO #529 (180 slightly tapered FP) why  the last 10 shot group had better cluserting i dont know

A bit more promise but nothing spectacular.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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John Alexander posted this 19 July 2012

George,

Interesting targets. The first target you said was horrible but no comment on the second one. What is the scale -- average size of groups or size of your aiming points?

I don't whether to cheer or offer sympathy.

John

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pat i. posted this 19 July 2012

I've decided to go at this from a different angle which means I'm spending more money chasing a dream. Last night I ordered a mould from Tom for my bullet but with the bore ride at .303, first band at .304, second and third at .309, and base band at .316. I'm going to fill that chamber and throat up with bullet and see if that's the secret to getting these things to shoot. I have absolutely no idea if that's what's needed but up to this point nothing else has seemed to work so I have to do something. My fragile ego can only take so many disappointments.

Nothing to lose except a few bucks if it doesn't work and plenty to gain if it does. I'll keep you posted. Back to day old bread and Ramen soup for the next few weeks I guess.

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pat i. posted this 24 July 2012

Got my new mould today! I don't know how Tom does it. I'll cast some tomorrow morning to see how she runs.

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nimrod posted this 24 July 2012

Well now looks like you are going to get serious with this stuff. How long and how heavy is that new bullet. I'm going to bet it's the best effort yet. Keep up the good work!:dude:

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4060may posted this 02 August 2012

Pat I started to foo with fixed ammo in my 32-40 1-14 twist, but decided it was not in the spirit of the game

The only 1-10 twist gun I have with a scope is a 30-40Krag No.3 Ruger original barrel

I have shot Cast Bullet Silhouettte with this gun since 1991, has had at least 7000 rounds thru it, a lot of it Unique...really does a job on the throat....so I can size bullets to .311 an they almost don't touch the throat...but still surprisingly well....

A question...is the rule in the CBA for fixed ammo , the bullet cannot be shaken from the case? Is a very light tension allowed?

I have been using WW571...because it has a burn rate close to No.9..but is much cleaner burning...and I have some

The bullets I have tried only because they are the only plain base .30 cal molds I have ...are a SAECO Pope copy and  the original Lyman bullet 308206 for the 1896KRAG

pictures coming

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pat i. posted this 02 August 2012

4060may wrote: A question...is the rule in the CBA for fixed ammo , the bullet cannot be shaken from the case? Is a very light tension allowed? Chuck,

 I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress and seeing the pictures. As far as your question above I always thought the shake test was part of the rules because at the first match I attended I was asked to do it but I went and looked at the rules and see nothing about shaking anything. I think both of us are going to have to find what the rule is.

 

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4060may posted this 02 August 2012

Pat Well here goes The top targets are from the 32-40, and the bottom targets are from the 30-40 you should be able to click on them to read the notes...hopefully

the small group is what the gun can do with breech seated Jerry Barnett bullet

The tong tool and bullets

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Pigslayer posted this 02 August 2012

pat i. wrote: Got my new mould today! I don't know how Tom does it. I'll cast some tomorrow morning to see how she runs. How about some pics of that new bullet!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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pat i. posted this 03 August 2012

Not much to see. Same bullet with sligtly different dimensions. A little bigger bore ride and a .316 base band so I can size it up and down to fill up the chamber. Waiting for something from Lee and then will try it out.

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pat i. posted this 11 August 2012

4060may wrote: A question...is the rule in the CBA for fixed ammo , the bullet cannot be shaken from the case? Is a very light tension allowed?

Chuck I've received some feedback on your question above and should have a definitive answer soon.

Not much progress to report on the PB front. Have had it out a few more times without much improvement. Have some ideas to try and if something pops I'll let people know but there's no sense in just posting pictures of targets that look just like the one before or telling of things I did that ended up doing nothing. Who the heck would have thought these things were going to be so hard to get shooting. If I would have known things were going to be this much of a hassle I would have looked for something a little easier to aggravate myself with but I'm in now and there's no backing out. I'll give it another 20 years or so and if I can't get it shooting by then I'll throw in the towel.

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nimrod posted this 11 August 2012

Keep up the good work I'm counting on you to get all the bugs worked out so that I wouldn't have near as much trouble and aggravation. I suppose if it were easy there would be lots of experts already doing it.

Richard

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linoww posted this 11 August 2012

I am on a quest for a 30-06 for light production for plainbase.We shall see if i do any better.I doubt it.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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pat i. posted this 13 August 2012

pat i. wrote: 4060may wrote: A question...is the rule in the CBA for fixed ammo , the bullet cannot be shaken from the case? Is a very light tension allowed?

 

Chuck, I got a ruling on this and there's no shake test.

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CB posted this 13 August 2012

Hey Pat, I've been trying to make the PBBs work in my '06 also. Gerry had a Saeco 315 opened up a few years ago to a plain-base mould. I wanted to shoot it in my 03-A3 for Miltary competition. I borrowed the mold and cast a up a bunch in 20:1 alloy. I tried a few loads around 1,000fps but couldn't get the 180gr cb to stabilize and ended up at a velocity around 1,250fps using Alliant 20/28, 9,2gr-10gr. I could get 1"-1.5” groups regulary, but always had leading trouble.

This year I've been shooting the Lee 90362, a 110gr cb made for 30 calibers but cast .312” so it fits in my Savage 32-20. I shot it without the gas check. I like the design better than the 32-20 molds offered by Lee because I seem to have better accuracy with a full groove diameter cb. Here are the two CBs coated with Recluse's 45/45/10 formula tumble lube.........Dan

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CB posted this 13 August 2012

This summer I borrowed the modified Saeco 315 again and in the this summer's heat started casting early in the mornings for about an hour and a half and got up a good supply casted in #2 Alloy this time. I tested in my Remington 700ADL 30-06 that I had been shooting in Hunter class. The rifle is old and shot out some and I always have leading problems with it, even with gas check CBs. I tried the same load as the 03-A3 using Alliant 20/28, did the usual .2gr up and down but had a terrible time with neck tension smashing the base of the PBBs. So I annealed the necks on my 30-06s and also on my 32-20s while I was at it.

I was using a PVC wad under both calibers. Its a pretty tight diameter, so it will hold the seating depth in the case with a loose neck. I can pick up the loaded round by the cb, but probably if I shook it they'd come out. Anyway, I got everything lined up perfect, but still the same accuracy, about 1.5", not competition accuracy. I could get some nice clusters in a group. I know the Saeco 315 is fussy about what kinda cb lube I use when using it with a gas check, so I tried several lubes. They all made a difference in accuracy, but I was still getting leading problems, mostly mid range in the barrel. I've given up....heck with it. I'm getting ready to go prairie dog shooting!

The 32-20 in the old Savage is a success story. Using Accurate Arms #5 with 5.2grs at 1,200fps I can consitantly get 1.5” groups. Using 45/45/10 tumble lube I get no leading at all. This makes a really good off-hand rifle and load for our Wind Hill matches. I do not use the gas check and use a PVC wad under the cb. Hey, maybe I'll try the Lee cb in the 30-06? :D!!!......Dan

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 August 2012

dan willems sez       This summer I borrowed the modified Saeco 315 again

it would be interesting to lathe-slice the  long nose on the saeco  bullets down to  about  one-half diameter extension in front of the bore engraving diameter.....  i think  a lot of our problems come from the semi-liquid bullets getting distorted at launch, ... then the long nose just wobbles around at random spirals all the way to the target ...   maybe, sometimes ... ( g ) .

if you would ship me 10 or 20...or ... i would be glad to trim them in my hardinge collet lathe.   

ken ( box 156, Lorimor, iowa 50149 )

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John Alexander posted this 14 August 2012

Dan,

Interesting posts.

You obviously have found the 45/45/10 tumble lube better than the straight Lee Liquid Alox or you wouldn't be going to the trouble. What advantages do you get?

I have the makings and have been considering making a batch.

John

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CB posted this 14 August 2012

John Alexander wrote: Dan,

Interesting posts.

You obviously have found the 45/45/10 tumble lube better than the straight Lee Liquid Alox or you wouldn't be going to the trouble. What advantages do you get?

I have the makings and have been fconsidering making a batch.

John

My old 32-20 bore is rough, pitted bad all through the bore. The 45/45/10 tumble lube has a high content of Carnuaba wax which coats the rough bore nicely. The 45/45/10 didn't make any difference in my 30-06.:(

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