m1 garand w/cast

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  • Last Post 14 April 2013
mannparks posted this 26 September 2012

gents ,whats a good starting load for the garand that will also work the action?---thanks charles

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GBertolet posted this 26 September 2012

I can tell you what I use in mine. 35 gr H4895 with Lyman 311284 of heat treated WW. Just enough to function the action. Empties go 3 to4 feet away. Depending on your Garand, you may need to adjust up or down to get the desired result you want.

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mannparks posted this 27 September 2012

thanks,and thats h4895 not imr?--charles

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GBertolet posted this 27 September 2012

Yes, that is H4895.

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tturner53 posted this 27 September 2012

Lyman 311284, WWII 4831-34 gr., dacron, Wolf LRP, 3.12” makes my Garand sing.

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72coupe posted this 27 September 2012

I have used 33 grains of TAC with a 314299. Velocity is 2200 but accuracy is 4 inches.

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delmarskid1 posted this 27 September 2012

Something over 30 grains of powder works most of the time. Winchester 748 and the 311291 shot well until the rifle got hot. I had a poor bore on that rifle.

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mannparks posted this 27 September 2012

do not know what tac is and would that be 4” @100

also thats a fat bullet, what do you size it?

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72coupe posted this 27 September 2012

TAC is a ball powder roughly equivalent to 4895.

I size to .310 for the Garand and my 1903A3 and my 40X Remington and .314 for my M44 Nagant.

And yes it shoots 4 inches at 100 yards. Not acceptable out of my match prepared Krieger barreled M1.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 September 2012

I used to use #311299 sized. 311 from wheelweights before lubing or applying GC because I heat treated in oven at 450 degs. F for an hour, then water quenched from oven, then lubed and crimp GC, loaded 36 grs. of 4064, about 2250 and 5-6 inches at 200 yards and 8-10 inches at 300.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mannparks posted this 28 September 2012

ed hello, so do you know what the BH# is after the the oven ?--charles

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smokiejoe posted this 28 September 2012

I use 40 grs. 4831, NOE 311284, nose bumped down to .304 for a new Gov. barrel that I put on, Just shot a group of 4 under one in. and had my flyer at 2 in., 100yds. Still like 18 grs. 4759 for shooting.

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Ed Harris posted this 28 September 2012

mannparks wrote: ed hello, so do you know what the BH# is after the the oven ?--charles

24-28

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mannparks posted this 29 September 2012

wow, that is very hard

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Ed Harris posted this 29 September 2012

That presumes a good quench in room temperature water within 3 seconds. If you take them   direct from the water, put them in a ziploc bag, then immediately cold soak them in  the freezer for a week or so you might get 30.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

tturner53 wrote: Lyman 311284, WWII 4831-34 gr., dacron, Wolf LRP, 3.12” makes my Garand sing.

You guys aren't having problems with leading the gas system?

Nothing personal, just curious.

We had 8 Garands out last weekend, 5 were primo NM rifles: 1) Navy trophy rifle (7.62x51) 2) USMC (7.62x51) 3) USAF 4) Type 1 5) Type 2.

Here's 5 of them in the rack, One in the back was a Korean war issue, the 4 in front are NM and the one sick M1A match grade I had to figure out. No, not mine, was helping a friend with a project.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 April 2013

Good question from rojkoh on leading.

Bore leading is usually not the issue, but lead fouling will be blown into the gas cylinder and will deposit on the face of the gas cylinder plug and operating rod piston. If extreme and neglected it will effectively “solder” the gas cylinder and plug together, requiring heating with a torch to break loose with much cussing and swearing.

For this reason I don't recommend use of cast loads in match conditioned rifles, where frequent disassembly for thorough cleaning might be harmful.

Issue grade rifle can be used with cast bullets for a trip over the course and properly cleaned, and used with good results. Removal of the gas cylinder from the barrel isn't necessary, but the plug should be removed, the operating rod dismounted, the interior of the gas cylinder scrubbed with a .410 shotgun bore brush, and the operating rod and gas cylinder plug cleaned. Application of anti-sieze compound on the threads of the gas cylinder lock and plug is a good idea to ease disassembly.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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smokiejoe posted this 13 April 2013

In some of my Garands I can shoot under 1 in. using 18 grs. 4759 , NOE 311284 swized at .310.

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

rojkoh wrote: Ed Harris wrote: Good question from rojkoh on leading.

Bore leading is usually not the issue, but lead fouling will be blown into the gas cylinder and will deposit on the face of the gas cylinder plug and operating rod piston. If extreme and neglected it will effectively “solder” the gas cylinder and plug together, requiring heating with a torch to break loose with much cussing and swearing.

Thanks Ed,

Personally I thought they'd named “The fouling shot” after what comes out of your bullseye loads.

I think a good project for you is to see if you can shoot cast bullets with FFg or FFFg out of a mouse gun.

:cba:

(Ducking and running):D

One serious note (after all the ones I've worked on)

Constant dissaseembly of either a Garand or a 14 type (M1A) should be avoided. It not only means re-zero'ing the rifle, but adds wear and tear to the weapon, especially to a match grade. I'll clean with gas systems without taking them out of the stock (and on the 14 type, just drop the gas piston out without touching the locking ring)... but I avoid taking the receiver out because it will mean having to retouch the bedding on a match grade sooner than you want. Don't happen that quickly with ACRAGLAS, but while I love the stuff, it's tricky to use. I have been using it since 75 on 14 types unless the owner wants something else.

Whew Garands, in 81 on one project alone, we got 633 Garands that had to be refurbished and shipped back out of the country. All parts had to be inventoried, but I did get a chance to salvage some NM parts off those rifles (hasty arsenal rebuilds).

Lot's of WWII stuff in those days don't ask.That's a BAR to the right of me, the crate of '06 was empty since we didn't have to pay for it! :D

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

smokiejoe wrote: In some of my Garands I can shoot under 1 in. using 18 grs. 4759 , NOE 311284 swized at .310.

Nice, how far out have you tried this round?

I am curious about the BC of cast bullets and how far out they could realistically be used. Yes, I'm aware of what's been done historically with cast bullets. I had a Sharps 3 band made within 500 rifles of the Berdan run, but out of a garand, this is interesting.

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: That presumes a good quench in room temperature water within 3 seconds. If you take them   direct from the water, put them in a ziploc bag, then immediately cold soak them in  the freezer for a week or so you might get 30.

One more serious question:

Given that lead flows when it's melts, isn't it a concern for any Garand owner that are shooting cast bullets, to understand the fact that they're basically. flowing lead into the gas system and that disassembly to keep it clean is counter productive in the wear and tear of the rifle against not cleaning it thoroughly every time; so that they're basically welding parts together.

This is one of the reasons, I've never tried cast out of a gas gun.

PS, bet you can't get a mouse gun to do this! :P

I did try FFFg in the 1911 for a reason (the turkey shoot(s)). Wonderful head trip when shooting man against man, since people that didn't know thought my 1911 blew up. Got a lot of laughs, but I never could get it to work for more than about 75 rounds. besides, I hate cleaning a 1911 in the sink! ;)

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Ed Harris posted this 13 April 2013

I have not shot cast in an AR, but there are people on this forum who do frequently and could comment.

My guess is that when carried to extremes you would get lead deposits in the gas tube and on the bolt rings, but regular cleaning should address that.

When I shot a great deal of .22 LR ammunition through the M261 unit, the usual maintenance was to hose the gas tube muzzle down with Gumout carb cleaner, then to give a squirt of Kroil and let it stand muzzle down until it all ran out.

I ran over 10,000 rounds of .22 LR through an AR I had at that time and never had to replace the gas tube. The first magazine or so of Ball ammo would blow out the crud loosened by the Kroil, and when you disassembled the bolt carrier the rings looked like an old Chevy run on the drag strip with leaded gasoline....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 13 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I have not shot cast in an AR, but there are people on this forum who do frequently and could comment.

My guess is that when carried to extremes you would get lead deposits in the gas tube and on the bolt rings, but regular cleaning should address that.

When I shot a great deal of .22 LR ammunition through the M261 unit, the usual maintenance was to hose the gas tube muzzle down with Gumout carb cleaner, then to give a squirt of Kroil and let it stand muzzle down until it all ran out.

I ran over 10,000 rounds of .22 LR through an AR I had at that time and never had to replace the gas tube. The first magazine or so of Ball ammo would blow out the crud loosened by the Kroil, and when you disassembled the bolt carrier the rings looked like an old Chevy run on the drag strip with leaded gasoline....

You're just no fun anymore, I'm taking my toys and going home! ;)

Actually I think you ought to invest roughly $2500-$3000 in some whopteedoo match AR and shoot till destruction. :)

Or you can cast the lead lead seeping out the rifle.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 April 2013

More fun to do that with the Garand and then make YOU clean it and see if you can cuss as well as Max Brandt did when he had to take a torch to mine to get the gas cylinder plug out!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 14 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: More fun to do that with the Garand and then make YOU clean it and see if you can cuss as well as Max Brandt did when he had to take a torch to mine to get the gas cylinder plug out!

Well if you had been around when I was cleaning a certain Garand, I'm sure you would have known I can cuss like a sailor that has had his leave money ripped off at the start of R&R.

Of course knowing all cute armorer and gunsmithing tricks I do, sure helped.

Now to paraphrase Ricardo Mantalban, let me “Task” you. How about FFg in 50 with a cast bullet? I would how far you could reach with that one.

Serious question, what distances were you shooting out to when you were running cast out of an M1?

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Ed Harris posted this 14 April 2013

When shooting cast in the M1 we were shooting the old WW2 Marine Corps Bravo course back to 500 firing the Dog silhouette for 200 and 300 and the E target at 500.

First article I ever sold to NRA was “Cast Bullets In the M1 Rifle” which appeared in American Rifleman in June, 1967.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 14 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: When shooting cast in the M1 we were shooting the old WW2 Marine Corps Bravo course back to 500 firing the Dog silhouette for 200 and 300 and the E target at 500.

First article I ever sold to NRA was “Cast Bullets In the M1 Rifle” which appeared in American Rifleman in June, 1967.

fascinating... something to tinker with in the future.

BUT, if you think I'm going to dig through 700 years of TAR, well, what comes to mind is certainly not PC sir!

I think you can read between the lines on that one! :shock:

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