Thoughts on hard cast in 45 acp for self defense

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  • Last Post 24 December 2012
Lillard posted this 04 October 2012

Thoughta on a RCBS 200 gr. swc water quenched and 5 gr. of Red Dot for self defense. The load functions well no feed problems and is very accurate in a Kimber Ultra Raptor. I like the idea of carry the same load I shoot at the range I know over penetration is a concern but I know that hard cast out of 44 mag. and 45 70 works well on game. I cant help but think that the result would be the same if hard cast was used for self defense. Is my choice a bad one?

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Ed Harris posted this 04 October 2012

Most authorities recommend that you only carry factory ammo for defense. One of the better discussions is here:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/2167be380c971d751694131258750ec5-1028.html>http://www.grantcunningham.com/blogfiles/2167be380c971d751694131258750ec5-1028.html

Evidence in the Trayvon Martin case - and how it affects you.

....One of the more intriguing bits was the condition of the area around the entry wound on Martin's body, leading to some speculation about the exact distance from muzzle to contact. This will, as Marty clearly points out, require ballistic testing of the gun and identical ammo to determine at what distance the test matches the evidence.

Since the court will likely not let the remaining ammunition in the gun be shot (that would be destruction of evidence), they'll need to get exemplar rounds (rounds which match exactly the ammunition used) to make those tests.

I point this out because there is still a vocal subset of people who insist that carrying handloaded ammunition for self defense is a perfectly good thing to do. (I do not know if Zimmerman did or did not; that probably won't be known until the testing progresses.) If Zimmerman did the smart thing and carried factory ammunition, all the defense will need to do is contact the manufacturer and get a box or two of the same ammunition, preferably with the same lot number. The results from firing that ammo in his gun should then match the results from the shooting, which will allow the defense to precisely determine the distance from which Martin was shot.

The testing could help validate Zimmerman's claim of self defense. Given his recent tribulations over bail revocation, he may need all the objective help he can get.

If this were a case where the shooter handloaded his ammunition, regardless of how carefully he kept records, the results of the testing would likely not be allowed into evidence. I won't go into detail as there is copious reading material available on this subject, but the bottom line is that the courts generally don't allow the defendant to manufacture evidence for his/her defense. If someone in a similar situation used reloaded ammunition, he'd be at a double loss: not only would the courts not allow the ammo in the gun to be used to support his claim, they wouldn't allow any other self-manufactured ammo to be used either.

It's not about what's “legal", it's about the rules of evidence - and they work differently than you might expect.

The supporters of handloaded ammo constantly repeat the refrain “if it's a clean shoot, then the ammo won't matter.” Is the Zimmerman case a “clean” shoot? At this point I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to say that it was. It may turn out that he was completely justified (or not - we won't know until a jury comes back), but the arbiter of a “clean” shoot ultimately isn't you, or me, or the cops, or the DA - it's the jury. A shoot isn't “clean” until a jury says it is, and the ammunition used is going to be one factor in their determination.

It's something of a Catch-22: in a clean shoot the ammo wouldn't matter, but we don't know if it's a clean shoot until the jury has decided it was, and part of their decision making may involve having the ammo tested, which means the ammo DOES matter. See the problem?

This is why I only carry factory ammunition in my guns. I use my considerable reloading skill and experience to craft practice rounds that duplicate my carry ammunition in bullet weight, velocity, recoil, and point of impact, which I use only for practice or training. When I load the gun for defensive use, I put in ammunition made by someone who can supply a certified duplicate of what I've used should I need to shoot someone. Their word about the composition of the ammo will be accepted by the court, where mine wouldn't. This way I can practice cheaply and still have the backing of a reliable third party in case I need it in court.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 04 October 2012

Alternately, you can buy Buffalo Bore 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters loaded to 875f/s. It is the long H&G style bullet you can cast yourself for practice and carry the store bought stuff for defense. HTH, Ric

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Lillard posted this 05 October 2012

Thanks for the info. It is a interesting subject I guess my real question is cast or jacketed for a man stopper. I know I am a little hard headed! LOL Ric the Bufflo Bore is a option.

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Dale53 posted this 05 October 2012

I have read extensively on the subject at hand. Ed Harris' explanation is the clearest that I have seen. I am NOT a lawyer but worked as an Insurance Claims Representative for thirty years. That brought me into close contact with the courts and lawyers on an almost daily basis. I can suggest that a feller or gal listen to Ed.

I carry factory ammo for self defense.

As to which type of ammo is “proper” - full factory velocity in the .45 ACP and I favor 200 gr hollow points for actual use in that caliber.

Personally, I am more apt to have my Smith 642 loaded with PlusP .38 Special with a 158 gr Hollow point lead (the FBI load) because of proven performance. NOTE: I am NOT suggesting that the .38 Special load is superior to the .45 ACP but I am more apt to have that revolver in my pocket.

If I'm carrying the Kimber CDP II (3") I'll have the Hornady TAP 200 gr load at 1055 fps. The Federal Hydro Shok 230 gr has an excellent reputation, also.

FWIW Dale53

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Clod Hopper posted this 05 October 2012

Ever shoot a case with no powder? I did, it was at a match. I was embarrassed, but I lived. If I am shooting a skunk or coyote and the gun goes “click,” I will say bad words, but I will live. I can't “carry” in Illinois, but I use only factory ammo in my mags that may be used for self defense.

In .45 ACP, its Federal Hydro-Shocks, because they have documented effectiveness.

Dale M. Lock

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 20 December 2012

Many a grave has been filled by .45 ACP ball ammo around the world. My opinion is that the 45 ACP was designed and adopted for it's stopping power and ability to knock a man off his feet. And that was with 230g ball ammunition. Does it possess enough energy to effectively expand and deliver it's energy in a soft point or expanding bullet load? Fortunately for me, that has yet to be tested.

But one of my son's was the victim of a home invasion robbery in December of 2005. He had a Browning High Power 9mm I had given him from my collection in July 2005, and he successfully saved his and his Families lives by killing two of the 3 assailants with 9mm +P factory loads. The assailants were armed with a shotgun and a baseball bat. Being that close to the investigation, I was privy to a few conversations with the detectives investigating the case, and some other direct information relayed from the DA. Of the 8 shots fired, 7 hit their intended targets. One took the heart out of one of the robbers, the other bled out on the way to the hospital from 5 leg wounds. Would reloaded ammunition done the same? Don't know. I don't reload to those sorts of velocities for range use. Did they do tests on the ammo in the box or the 2 rounds in the gun? Nope. The entire case revolved around racial implications because my son is Caucasian, and the robbers were blacks from the San Fransisco Bay area 200 miles South of the crime scene. But one of the robbers who was living at his Grandmothers home in the area was to report to start serving a 3 year sentence for robbery. And a shotgun stolen from an 80 year old man's home was recovered near the Grandmothers home. (The one that out ran his friends who died, dropped it there, DNA shown.) The 80 year old man was still recovering in the hospital from the beating he got in his home invasion robbery 2 weeks prior. No charges were ever filed against my son. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

The point is, it's your call. But I have 3 clips of Specially loaded .45 ACP for my home defense sidearm. 21 rounds of help to stop a threat from harming my wife, my dogs, or myself. My objective is to stop the threat, and explain it later. So I have my special loads I know I can rely on. Maybe they'll expand, maybe not. But because they are .45 ACP I know they'll be effective. Swedged by a friend. But my main home defense is a pump 12 gauge. The 45 is for up close and personal. My home is my castle, regardless of the political farts that waft around.

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tturner53 posted this 20 December 2012

It's hard to imagine any reasonable .45 acp load that would not be an effective choice. Going sideways a bit, I occasionally take my percussion revolvers for a walk in the woods. Either a ROA or Italian Remington '58. What's the deal if I had to defend myself from a human attacker? Any case history on that? Sure no factory ammo available. 

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Chargar posted this 20 December 2012

I have followed the debate over factory vs. handloads for defense use since it's genesis with Massad Ayoub and I don't intent to rehash it point by point for that won't convince anybody of anything. I am not interested in another internet debate on the topic.

I held a Texas Law License for 50 years and in that time practiced both criminal defense law and prosecuted as well. My retirement gig is teaching legal studies at the local university which includes criminal law and procedure. I am familiar with the laws of evidence.

I mostly carry factory ammo in my social handguns, but one or two use handloads. I consider the legal arguments against the use of handloads to be without merit.

If a fellow wants to carry handloads in his defense weapon then he should do it.

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Ed Harris posted this 21 December 2012

Chargar,

FWIW you and my buddy Doc Carlini agree.

He speaks from the standpoint of an ME and ER Doc rather than a lawyer, and says hollow-points often fail to penetrate and are not magic. He carries full charge wadcutters in .38 Special and generally favors large meplat, heavy bullet.

Further says if we all made decisions based on which guns caused the most bodies to cross slabs in the ME's office we'd all be carrying .22s and .32s, go go figure.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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delmarskid1 posted this 21 December 2012

Saeco makes a 215g semi-wadcutter with a large meplat that feeds well in my .45's. It is made for cowboy action but has a meplat near .40". The model no. is 058.

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LWesthoff posted this 21 December 2012

Re Ed's Doctor friend's remark regarding which calibers send the most bodies to the coroner's slabs:

Don't doubt the statistics one bit - but I don't care whether my carry gun kills or wounds, What I want it to do is to STOP! I'll stick to my .45ACP.

Wes

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Chargar posted this 21 December 2012

I live hard against the Texas/Mexico border and it is a dangerous place to live these days. I carry a 9mm every time I leave the house and most often around the house as well. I keep it stuffed with the very best 9mm +P ammo around. I have settled on the Sig P239 as a gun I can have on my all of he time.

Like many old Texans, I will favor the 1911 pistol and have several around the house for unwanted guests and another in the pickup truck. These use handloads of 452423/4.7/BE for a velocity of 830 FPS. I am now 50 years deep with this load and it will feed fine in most throated barrels. It has a very large meplat and enough velocity to push it to the important places. I keep the same load in moon clips for use in various Smith and WEsson DA sixguns chambered for the 45 ACP round.

No handgun makes me feel warm, fuzzy and safe like my old Ithaca Police Special 12 ga. It was retired from the New Mexico state police and took it second retirment from the Luna County (NM)Sheriff's office before deciding to live with me. I like it.

22s and 32s are the ER doctor's nightmare. They will turn on just about any bone or large muscle and zig zags around in the body cutting stuff and doing damage as it goes. They are very lethal although not much as stoppers.

I don't know is there really is much of a stopper. I had a Great Uncle (back in the day) that shot a large black gentleman, who was trying to damage to an employee sprang through the heart with a Winchester 73 (38-40). Said heart shot man, jumped over a 4 strand wire fence and ran almost a 50 yards before dropping over graveyard dead. It should be noted that he was running away from Uncle Buck.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 22 December 2012

Chargar, Mine happens to be an Ithaca as well, but a Deerslayer model. Long live Ithaca! 20” barrel, iron rifle type sites. I have some home grown loads I specially built for the purpose. 2-3/0 Buckshot (stacked) with #7 1/2 Magnum Shot as a filler. (It's just a harder type shot) The intent is that if it is ever necessary to be unleashed at something, that something is going to stop dead.

Bless You for your Law Enforcement Service.

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Ed Harris posted this 22 December 2012

Agree on the warm fuzzy feeling of a short-barreled 12-ga. My riot gun happens to be a Winchester Model 12.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Lillard posted this 23 December 2012

I also keep a 12 ga. pump loaded with 00 buck (I call them hard lead marbles)in the house and will play marbles with any uninvited guest if need be. I started this thread to ask opinions on air cooled or water hardened bullets in 45 acp for personal protection. My thoughts on factory or handloads boil down to this. If you have to use a weapon for self defense then you will probally have to defend your self in court no matter the circumstance. I feel like if you have to use deadly force and you are justified in doing so reloads or factory ammo is not going to be an issue. So use what you are comfortable with and I trust my handloads.

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Sonny Edmonds posted this 23 December 2012

Not necessarily in court, but you will have to give the investigation a statement. My son was released less than 12 hours after his incident. And he was the last one of the Family released. (In his underwear, no less. So be sure to grab your pants. ;))

Hard or soft bullets, the .45ACP was intended to be a big, slow, bullet with a lot of knock-you-on-your-a$$ behind it. I don't expect big expansion from it like I do from much faster ammo. If it did blossom up, hey great! But if it stops a threat, it did it's job.

Going back to basic gun safety: Never point a gun at anything you do not intend to kill.

Because if the gun goes off, you just might kill what you are pointing it at.

I've found W231 and Unique worked for better accuracy for my shooting than Red Dot.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 24 December 2012

Ed Harris wrote: Agree on the warm fuzzy feeling of a short-barreled 12-ga. My riot gun happens to be a Winchester Model 12.

Mine is a 590 12ga with extended mag. (for 2 legged hazzards) and a 500 20ga for skunks. (rabies is going through here now).

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