Fitting throats on Freedom Arms CASULL model, 44 mag

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  • Last Post 22 October 2012
corerf posted this 07 October 2012

Good evening folks. I have finally torn down my one owner recently added FA CASULL model in 44 mag with 10 inch barrel.

It has truly only had a single box of ammo thru it. This gun should transcend the Model 83 and be a PRE Model 83, as it is the Model CASULL. This is an early gun, dating back to the late 70's.

Who cares. The important point is I tried to drop a .431 diameter LEE 310 with FP and GC in a throat. It stopped abruptly a long ways back. I then decided to size a few to 429 and 428, as those are the other dies I have to shrink them. None of those made it any further. Well to the naked eye, no further. So I pulled some once fired cases, sized (they slide right in so the chamber is tight but not .001 above SAMMI minimum tight).

I fed the cases with the LEE bullet, seated to the longest crimp groove to give absolute maximum powder capacity.

The 431 was not even tried. I ran the 429 and 428 only. The case stops about .075 inch from complete in each case.

I then ran a few more cases after sizing the ENTIRE bullet, just as much as the die could do. The went .050 and then stopped. Well the 429 went .050 and stopped. The 428 slid right in like it should.

Now the bullets cant be jackhammered out of the cylinder by themselves in any diameter. I have not slugged the but I expect a .427 or even 426 groove diameter is ahead of that cylinder. I really DONT want to mess around with slugging the bore on this gun. I figure if they built it tight, well then leave it alone and fit a bullet well to the cyl and go shoot it. Keep it simple.

So the QUESTION is since the 428 fits nice and the 429 DOESN'T FIT AT ALL, SHOLD I BE SWEATING THE TINY BULLET DIAMETER???

I've never had a chamber this tight. I could seat short to the second crimp groove and all problems vanish but then I loose a .1 inch capacity in the case.

With 428 diameter STILL NOT BEING ABLE TO BE PUSHED with a hammer through the throats (I may be exaggerating a tiny bit but no bullet of any diameter 428 or larger will pass through with any amount of force)----- ShouLD I SHOOT 428 or TAKE THE LOSS in capacity and shoot 429???

I know it's a stupid question but I figured maybe there is another FA owner or custom revolver owner or ANY owner who can validate the use of a 428 in a tight revolver. My SUPER DUPER tight Bullberry eats 431's but kisses the nose a tiny bit on the leade as its inserted. Cold days,you dont feel it, like rubbing velvet. Hot days just like wet velvet. Very little friction. But thats not a revolver.

Side bar..... I finally cleaned and inspected my US Arms Seville in 357 MAX, 10 inch. I had the same circumstance with it as well. I usually shoot in my TC, 200gr RCBS FN sized to 363 (just an unsized lubed bullet). I tried that on the Seville which is a ROLEX of machinery.... no go. Same as the FA. Tried a 358 same bullet,NO GO>

Seated in a virgin case, the 363, stopped .2 short due to the case expanding as the bullet was seated.

Tried same with 358, nice clean perfect bulge free case. Slid right in.

Just like the FA, the 358 in the Seville wont pass even being hammer through but fits nicely just about .030 from the cylinder face.

The FA could eat a much longer bullet but it would have to be an LFN with long ogive.

Ive never had a revolver that would only eat SPEC bullet diameters. Like NOMINAL crap Lyman and RCBS put out for dimensions. This is new for me. I have made fat bullets for everything else I own. And rarely read anyone using .358 or .428 for diameters.

Thanks for listening and pondering the findings.

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offhand35 posted this 07 October 2012

"I really DONT want to mess around with slugging the bore on this gun. I figure if they built it tight, well then leave it alone and fit a bullet well to the cyl and go shoot it. Keep it simple."

You start to get things a little balled up when you also bring up the 357max revolver, so I will try to only look at what you said in regard to the Casull. You will probably be able to apply this to the 357 also, but the 44 being a Casull, you actually have a potential resource for recourse at Freedom Arms.

When beginning to work up a “new” revolver for cast bullets, there are some measurements that it becomes essential to know. Especially if you try to start doing things without knowing them and then encounter a problem like this one.

Those are bore land/groove diameter measurements from a slug, and cylinder mouth diameter. Slugging is not really all that difficult for me, I just find a pure lead roundball that is larger than expected but close, pound the ball into the muzzle without hitting the muzzle with the hammer, then finding a rod or dowel a little under bore diameter and poking the center of the depression of the now flattened round ball through the bore. It won't take much effort here, as the slug is very soft, and once formed to the grooves & lands, just slides out the other end. Otherwise you could get a bore slug set from Veral at LBT. That would save pounding near the muzzle. You likely could use one or some of those slugs to measure the cylinder mouths.

You don't make clear if this Casull shoots 210,220,240 grainers ok, unless that is what you mean by “SPEC bullet diameters".

Either way, if the cylinder mouths slug at 0.428” or smaller, for instance, and the bore slugs .430", the 0.428” sized bullets will likely bounce around in the bore, and not yield good accuracy unless a soft alloy was used to re-expand the bullet in the bore after it got there. You would have to keep velocity low, kinda defeating the purpose of having a Casull..... Again, this is info you need to have in order to decide what to do.

Now that you have those measurements, and know exactly what you want to shoot in it, I would call Freedom Arms for their take on what you could do, and find out what they could do for you in in terms of reboring the cylinder chambers to fit what you want and being sure the cyl mouths match the bore and/or any reboring work that would make it work for you. This is all provided you really want to commit to make this gun shoot well for you.

That is what I would do.:coffee

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donr308 posted this 07 October 2012

Don't know if it'll help you any but I'll tell you about my very similar experience with my Freedom .44. After aquiring a Freedom .454, which happens to be one of the most precisely made hand guns I own,I decided I had to have a .44 mag. I placed the order in Oct. of 2006 and got it in March of 2007. From day one the leading was bad. A Lewis Lead Remover was the only way to remove it. I have a full set of plug gauges from .250 t0 .500 by .001's. and determined the throats were .428. The barrel slugged a little over .431. I talked with Freedom and they told me to send the cylinder back. I asked if they would open the throats and was told no but the could change the angle from the chamber into the throat. Got the cylinder back, checked throats, still .428. Went to range, same thing, bad leading.

Contacted Freedom and was advised to send gun back and they would replace barrel. Overnight UPS from my location to WY plus insurance was almost $100. When I got the gun back the cylinder throats were .430. The replacement barrel was was the same size as before. When I removed my front sight before returning to Freedom I neglected to keep the set screw. The new barrel did not have a set screw and I am confident that the barrel was replaced. A trip to the range with ammo loaded with 429421's, sized .430 and long time favorite load of Blue Dot showed improvement but still some leading but not nearly as bad.

I have put more rounds through my .44's, which range from 629 Classics, a pre model 29 that S&W shipped in Dec., 1956, multiple 29's, a 4” Mountain Gun, to an old model Flat Top Black Hawk (1960)than all other handguns. I have sizing dies from .429 to .433 and have always been able to get acceptable, if not perfect results. The Freedom .44 has been one of the most difficult. A shooter using only jacketed bullets would probably have never been aware of the problem. I feel that Freedom has tried to work with me and I don't feel that my expectations are unrealistic for a handgun that with the basic price, premium sights, 3 lb. trigger, up graded stocks, trigger stop, etc, tops out at $2000. Bottom line is I don't remember the last time it was out of the safe' Don Ross

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corerf posted this 08 October 2012

Now I did not want to hear that Don.

But I had read a similar experience with another gun from FA, not sure the cartridge but I have heard that they can and do bugger up a gun with everything perfect yet cylinder to bore mismatch.

I guess I have to slug it.

I will cross my fingers when I shot it here in the not to distant future.

Thanks for the real life experience being shared. Thats the kind of response I was looking for.

All the best Don/.

I'll keep the thread hot when I start to shoot maybe in a week or two.

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454PB posted this 11 October 2012

If it was mine, I'd slug the barrel and then ream the chamber throats to fit. Your other solution is to use jacketed bullets.

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Wayne S posted this 11 October 2012

corerf wrote: Now I did not want to hear that Don.

"I guess I have to slug it. Let us know what you find from slugging your Cyl. throats and bore .

 

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corerf posted this 14 October 2012

I slugged both throat and bore.

Bore is .42925 or so

throat is .43025 or so

equals from what I can see about .001 step from throat to bore.

YEAH!!

I also concluded that my 429 lyman die is running with this alloy, a bit fat. Closer to 4305. So there is my .0005 FAT issue on the 300 gr bullet. I am going to load a few at 429 sized and seat a bit deeper to the lowest crimp groove. That puts me at textbook COL or just a taste longer. I will loose my extra powder space but it will give a proofed load at measured, “CORRECT” dimensions for accuracy and leading determination. I will start directly with W296 per Hodgdon specs.

I am really happy that numerically the gun is darn near or at design perfection. I may need to try a different 429 sizer die to see if I can get closer to 4290 and get back my powder space.

Check back in a few hours for a range report.

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corerf posted this 14 October 2012

I was able to dig through inventory of sizer dies and found a lyman that produces spot on .4290

At full seating length, the COL is just under 1.700 and with a light press fit into the cylinder the last .050. Slides like satin!

I might have a geometric winner. Hope it shoots

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 October 2012

back when i wuz a machinist i found that perfect labels were easier to produce than perfect cutting tools...

never trust what the label says ..

i could call that the Obama Rule but don't want to get off topic.  (g)?

ken

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corerf posted this 15 October 2012

Range report for the FA 44 and the Seville 10” 357 MAX.

The FA still would not eat the cases with full length seating. I had to force most in. I had one or two cylinders load fairly easy but still had to push to get them all the way in. I am CERTAIN this is where a good amount of my accuracy destroyed. It was a pig in a poke. Some slid right in, some just need a slight push, some took too fingers and a thumb and three tries to get them stuffed in. Am I crazy for stuffing, no I knew it was a bullet sizing issue and knew if it got in, it would come out just fine.

I worked up OLD w296 up to 21 gr from 17gr with a COL of 1.685/680, with the lee 310 FPGC. Lars White Label Carnuba Red 2700, Hornady checks.

21 gr was quite stout but was also inaccurate. It was not a wrist buster in any regard and the FA seemed to tame the recoil very well. The extra case capacity due to long seating will likely NOT buy me anything aside form DIFFICULTY feeding the cases in.

My Ruger SRH was far more painful to shoot even with a Hogue grip.

19.5 seemed to be the sweet spot. None of the loads were a disaster. Also none impressed me but the 19.5 and it may be a winner. Id stack 2 in the same hole, move up .5 inch and stack two more back to back and then one fell low but in same location. I had 1 hour to shoot and had not pulled a trigger in over a year! Not doing my best shooting. I was OK with the 1911 and printing 1” groups offhand at 10 yards firing rapidly, with my son shooting at that distance. But thats 10 yards! The FA has a heavy trigger, long sear ledge and is very heavy.

Happy to say NO LEADING, anywhere. Throats are full of lube at the start of the throat. Cases were untrimmed and of assorted lengths, of whatever origin, PMC crap. Win LP primers. And so with no pressure signs I feel like running up to 21 with no leading and finding a simple point to start, 19.5 was good.

I have decided to go back to using the short crimp groove to assist with easy case insertion. And I will once again, start a W296 workup with the confidence that the gun will perform better than I and it will do so with no leading and perfect operation.

As for the Seville..... a finer action man has not held. No lie, sub 2lb trigger, I bet the pull is about 1.5lbs and is like nothing I have ever felt. It makes the FA a PIECE OF CRAP!. The whole of the Seville makes the FA look, feel, act like a piece of xcrap!! Thats saying something. This is the IHMSA special edition Seville, fairly rare, in 10 inch. It is to date the easiest gun I have ever fired to do so accurately. It is a joy to operate.

I have basically run out of H4227 burning what I had for the contender 357 max and the K Hornet I run. I had to use IMR4227, with which I have no experience. NONE. I am pretty pissed that Hodgdon shut down the H4227. It has left me in a bad way.

I used some older grey/blue can variety and stepped down to start at 16gr. It felt like a light 357 mag load. Shot OK, but not great. Sent about 10 to season the barrel for the first time and get the juice flowing. I moved to 16.5 and it tightened up. I have previously found that the harder I push “H4227” in the max, the happier it is. NO PRESSURE signs, round primers, etc.

Sidebar: My 10 inch Bellm 357 mag/max rechamber uses upwards of 21gr (19.6 is the settled load at 1650fps) of H4227, running the RCBS 35-200 (216 checked and lubed) and it shoots 5/8 or better at 50 yards with a scope, clean enough for you to feed a baby with it. So the experience I have had with the maximum and the 4227 family is nothing but glory and tolerance. NOW READ ON THE NOTES BELOW

Moved to 17gr, and it got a little bit better for pep, no chrono at this indoor range. Still felt like a light 357 mag load, real light. Groups turned into sub 1 inch quick, at 18 yards. I put 10 into sub 1 inch, hands on the bench, kneeling and wobbling. So my form was not horrible earlier with the FA, it just wasn't as accurate as the Seville.

I put 5 down range at 17.5 and was going to run to 19.5gr in the series. 4 of the 5 went REAL TIGHT, sub 3/4 inch. One flier went real low. Turns out the case ruptured REAL BAD. From stem to stern, split lengthwise. Now I stopped and told my son I was done, showed him the case and didn't think twice about it. But now in hindsight, I do believe it was a bad case. LIGHT RECOIL, coupled with no unusual pressure signs (maxes tend to have primers that look pretty ugly when you hit the sweet spot) Looking at the cases, primers had flattened a bit and there were very light craters, Looked like 9mm factory ammo primers. No big deaL!! These are SR primers, not pistol. So pressures are up there a bit for sure but still------ something is not adding up right.

The IMR is faster than H4227 by a tick or two. I knew there was a possibility, case failure or premature ending of the workup. But I didn't expect this type of failure, when all other brass bad no incipient HS signs, no sticky extraction, no fat bases, cases fall out, no noise (my 45 was louder), just absolutely no signs of this failure coming.

But I was happy that the GUN is stupid, freakish accurate as it should be. Oh my goodness. It shoots like it has eyes on it.

Some leading in the throats right at the case mouth area, but barrel is free of lead end to end. And I have yet to push a brush through and it may be lube and not so much.... lead!

I am no where near a proper hunting load with it though. I need to find an alternative to the H4227. Please check on a thread I will start in a minute if you have anything to chime in on 4227 substitute, etc

So in wrap up fro the FA, Ill actually trim and prep some 44 mag brass proper, rerun the W296 with same bullets and do so from a modest rest. I will do so with the top crimp groove, seating deepest, not longest... for ease of insertion of cartridge. I believe it will develop into a one hole hammer of Thor and give very, very tight accuracy with that Lee bullet mentioned above.

The Seville needs a new powder. I'd rather not feed it W296 but that may be all I have to hope for. I do have some Lil-Gun I can try if I can get some start data and it may give me better results without the FAST POWDER curve the IMR “SEEMS” to have. I'd like to shoot the Seville regularly and keep as much frame cutting from occurring. AMND so w296/H110 ball powders are not ideal.

ANY FEEDBACK??

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corerf posted this 16 October 2012

Hodgdon indicated on the 357 max case rupture that 16-18gr OLD IMR4227 was indeed a perfect load and at 17.5, I was well within the 40Kpsi area. The rupture was concluded to be a bad case.

Now I wonder if it will repeat itself on the other 500 pieces I have of new production Remington brass.??????????

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corerf posted this 22 October 2012

So following up on the FA 44 mag, I have dummied a couple of cases with the Lee 310 FPGC with an OAL of 1.620 (crimped into the upper or shortest crimp groove)---- Wish I had never visited the long seating groove on this gun. It has been a physically painful experiment, extracting live rounds was near impossible and shooting results were less that stellar.

The FA throat still is tight enough for the last .010 inch to need pressing in when loading the cylinder (the new dummy round). Thats much better than hammering them in the last .1 or there abouts. And unloading live rounds (dummies under test), they pop out easy now. So I am expecting better results in the accuracy dept. I am not used to having such a short throat. And this FA really has a short throat. I just can't see a 325 or 335gr WFN fitting in this chamber. Unless it's mostly stuffed in the case. The throat is VERY LONG physically but the receiving end is short. Theres a LOT of throat that could be filled with a long seated bullet if it was a larger diameter. But it's not a problem, I won't try to make it one. I am happy with 310 gr bullets and no bigger.

I have started to trim a group of once fired cases to 1.277 (IIRC, thats what the Lee Hand trimmer cuts to- maybe its 1.177) and so a consistent batch of brass will be used. I'll get back to a 296/110 load and see if I can find a sweet spot.

I sized and lubed about 350 Lee 310 FPGC cast from WW and 2% tin. BHN should arrive at about 14 in a couple of months, air cooled. The last batch were 6 mo old and stopped aging at 14 BHN. They seemed to be happy with all the gusto I could muster in the gun with no leading.

I also lubed and sized some 6 mo old Lyman 240 swc's with both NRA and WLL Carnuba Red. I don't use Unique much for pistol, shotgun yes- not pistol. Everyone raves about it being a good accurate midload-light load powder with great burn tendencies. I will try to get around 1200 fps, no more though, from the 240 with a small does of Unique. Hoping the pressures are low enough and bullet fit good enough to keep leading gone. I'd be happy with 1100 fps, as long as it's bloody accurate and does not lead. Something that wont lead to forcing cone destruction and is easier on the hands and pocket book than the fat ones mentioned above.

CYA

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