Rooster Jacket substitute

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  • Last Post 01 August 2016
hwevers posted this 09 October 2012

I have been told by a commercial reloader that Johnson Floor Wax is a viable substitute for tumble lubing with Rooster Jacket.

Any opinions, comments, or suggestions would be appreciated.

I'd like to avoid cooking up home brew.

Thanks,

Howard

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CB posted this 10 October 2012

Howard, I have shot CBs in my rifle in 32-20 Win. The JPW coated CBs shot fine at 1,200 fps. I'd say the JPW ought to work fine for pistol velocities.

I also use 'recluse's' 45/45/10 formula, but understand if you don't want cook.

I have heard that Lee Liquid Alox can be mixed 50/50 witht JPW without heating, though it does take some time stirring to get them mixed. I'm going to try the cold method to see for myself since I so like the 45/45/10........Dan

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CB posted this 10 October 2012

Oh, I also find that heating the CBs up to about 100F helps considerably to give an even coating, about 150F for 45/45/10 for a nice thin coat which is all that is needed.....

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hwevers posted this 10 October 2012

Dan: Thanks for your prompt response, but I was looking for info on Johnson's Floor (liquid) wax.

Any thoughts?

Howard

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Brodie posted this 10 October 2012

I understand your not wanting to “cook” a lube, but for 20$ you can get a little (1 qt.) crock pot .  Just put the ingredients in, set on low and let it cook in a ventilated area.  Add the mineral spirits (for 45,45,10) later after it has cooled.  I know it is “cooking” , but there is no danger of fire or explosion -unless you add a flame- and you don't have to stand around , smell the vile concoction and worry . Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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John Alexander posted this 10 October 2012

I tried to make some 45-45-10.

I printed the original instructions from Recluse and tried to follow them. But they are pretty crude ” heat for 15-20 minutes avoid boiling.” No max temperature, no exact time, no optimum reduction of volume.

I heated the JPW for fifteen minutes being careful not to let it boil. I thought it looked like it was shrinking more than I expected and when I stopped I had made 70% of the wax disappear. I obviously cooked it too long or too hot or both. Short of buying a crock pot (which seems like a good idea)are there directions involving temperatures and time or the correct amount of volume reduction? Does anyone know what is max temperature in a crock pot? I would like to try it again. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

John

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Ed Harris posted this 10 October 2012

I heated the stuff outdoors on my porch, using a double-boiler on an electric hot plate. Using the double-boiler maintains correct temperature.

But the diluted LLA is easiest. That is my normal mix now, really makes the lube go farther.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John Alexander posted this 10 October 2012

Thanks Ed.

Is the diluted LLA less sticky on the dried bullets that straight LLA -- less sticky than 45-45-10?

I have read it before in your writings but remind me what percentage of mineral spirits do you add?

John

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Ed Harris posted this 11 October 2012

Dilute equal parts by liquid volume.

Using mineral spirits the lube will still be a bit tacky, but less so because the coating is thinner. Work best if bullets are uniformly frosted.  Less effective on shiny bullets.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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noylj posted this 20 December 2012

Try Anchor Seal wax emulsion--the original and NOT the “green” version. Take LLA and JPW/Minwax and Mineral spirits, put in quart or gallon can, and place on paint shaker. Take LLA and JPW/Minwax, put a little in plastic bag, put your bullets in, and knead the bag to get all mixed and tumbled. You can also try to mix LLA and JPW/Minwax with MS in a rotary tumbler in a glass jar over night. Tacky has no effect on bullet performance. Just don't roll bullets in dirt. Why worry about something that doesn't matter? The reason LLA works so well is it is tacky and adheres and forms a great seal--not because it is any sort of “lubricant.” It is simply a VERY tenacious barrier between the bullet and barrel. LLA is like Brylcreem-- a little dab will do you.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 December 2012

i have noticed in ” the literature “  many reports of the value of using a minimum amount of lube ...notably tom grey...who has advised this ..about 50 times ... ...

also, my results with moly lubes led me to use an extremely small amount ..in fact, a very small amount on only every third bullet !! ...

and now we notice the users of the apparently very successful * recluse * mix are reporting good luck with minimum amounts.  if recluse would work the same with it on only every third bullet, would that mean a lube isn't working as a bullet base gas seal ?

questions ... so many questions ...

ken 

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Eutectic posted this 14 December 2015

Ken, What the 'Literature “is referring to is the effect of under and over lubrication. The two conditions are quite different in their effects on accuracy.

Over-Lubrication Over-lubrication is a term you may see used to describe the effects of using too much lubricant. This condition is well known to competitive shooters who use cast bullets. The most accurate condition is just enough lubricant so the barrel is left clean with minimal deposits. The presence of excessive lube in the barrel causes accuracy to decrease slightly. The important word here is slightly, this is quite different from the effect of under-lubrication Using a top quality lube where it is not required, or filling all the lube grooves with lubricant when only one groove filled is needed, gives a slight increase in group size. This can be demonstrated by using a machine rest with pistols, or careful bench rest shooting with rifles. The effect of over lubrication is small and is unimportant in most shooting.

Under-Lubrication The effects of under-lubrication are striking. Under lubrication leads to total loss of accuracy, and leading is often severe. Under-lubrication refers to both not enough lube and the use of a lube unsuited to the load.

My experience:

A carefully developed cast bullet load for a 308 Winchester rifle produced 1 ¼ groups at 100 yards with one lube groove on the bullet filled with lube. Filling all the grooves gives 1 ¾ inch groups. However, the load with one groove filled is suitable only for slow fire, with the barrel allowed to cool between shots. Attempts to use this superior accuracy load for rapid fire gave 4 inch “groups” after 10 fast shots. The second load, with the same lube and all grooves filled, is not affected by rapid shooting, and will shoot less than 2 inches all day long. The first load is temperature sensitive and will not group well on 100 F summer days, the second load is unaffected.

Target velocity 38 Specials lubricated in all grooves with a low effectiveness lube made with paraffin and Vaseline or commercial lubes made with only microcrystalline wax and shoot very well. In fact, switching to Alox 50/50 or other really “good” lube will actually enlarge groups slightly when tested in a machine rest. Alox lubricant in one groove or even part of one groove gave the best accuracy.

Attempts to use these same bullets with the low effectiveness paraffin and Vaseline lube in 357 magnum loads gave 6 inch 25 yard groups and heavy leading. Substituting Alox 50/50 in the magnum loads eliminated the leading and shrank the groups to under 2 inches.

Maximum accuracy is often found at the point where there is just enough lube. When the load is at the point of perfect lubrication it is also on the edge of under-lubrication. A change in conditions can easily push a load into under-lubrication with resultant loss of accuracy.

Most of my loads are over-lubricated, and for very good reason. I want them to perform in all conditions and in all guns. I do not want leading to appear suddenly because I plink a little to fast or it is a hot day. Hunting ammo has to perform under all temperatures. The slight “loss of accuracy” from over-lubrication is unnoticed in real world shooting. For general cast bullet loads, I use the best lube for the task at hand and I fill all the grooves covered by the case neck.

Steve Hurst

To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target. - Ashleigh Brilliant

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 December 2015

great stuff steve ....

barrel conditioning has kind of been the monster under our bed ... we are very reluctant to look ...

my hero ed doonan had some interesting comments on barrel conditioning ....


when i shot 22 rf match a lot we always needed 5 to 25 fouling shots ...the zero would walk into the crosshairs ....note:: the zero not the group size ... if we waited 2 minutes for the next shot the zero would move . eeek . it was not * warming * the barrel ... whether 100 or 35 degrees the need for fouling shots were the same .the fouling shots would usually be high and left or right . some barrels were better than others but i never saw one the didn't need fouling . this was not after cleaning, it was after not shooting for a couple minutes ...or 5 minutes. i never cleaned my moly lubed rf for weeks and it still needed conditioning every minute or so .


maybe why cast bullets .... bent or perfect ... shoot 2 to 3 moa is because the barrel conditioning changes every shot . ????? although once conditioned the rf would shoot that 30 cent ammo into 1/2 moa forever . oh, and winchester wildcats into under 1 moa ... that really hurts . better than my sako 308 with cast ...... sigh .


just some thoughts ... probably too many thoughts ...

ken

oh yeah ... my mj benchrest guys often put the first shot into the group ... doesn't look like a barrel warming up ... do we need better fouling ?? maybe powdered copper ( g ) ... i thought maybe my moly lube would be more stable but no joy . yet .

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giorgio the slim one posted this 14 December 2015

Remember that XLOX from LS Lestuff is  much cheaper  than Lee 's, and they sell  ready made 45/45/10  too . Being  in Italy I use a solvent  called Nitro paint thinner, which is less oily than  natural turpentine or mineral oli derivates . I believe that economic aluminum gang molds of correct as cast  diameters and  alox  lubes are the most clever things for our sport .Extreme bench rest accuracy  requests painstaking work at the casting and   loading table , hard work  that I mostly admire and respect , but (pardon me) I do not like too much. 

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John Alexander posted this 15 December 2015

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote barrel conditioning has kind of been the monster under our bed ... we are very reluctant to look ...


just some thoughts ... probably too many thoughts ...

ken

oh yeah ... my mj benchrest guys often put the first shot into the group ... doesn't look like a barrel warming up ... do we need better fouling ?? maybe powdered copper ( g ) ... i thought maybe my moly lube would be more stable but no joy . yet . Several excellent points.  I think it IS probably the monster under the bed.  Most of us  work out something that works fairly well for our gun, type of use, etc.  and maybe that's all that's needed for that use.  Some of these apparently some of these are alleged to not even need fouling shots. Shooters with a set of guides that work for their situation may even be tempted to think they understand why it works.  I suspect we should be more humble.

Even though many good shooters have worked out something that works for them, the solutions aren't always the same.  At the CBA nationals you can find folks using all the grooves they have and shooting great clouds of smoke every shot and others using practically no lube and shooting just as well. Maybe if they traded ammo neither would shoot well, maybe both would -- I don't know.

Merrill Martin, a great experimenter with seemingly unlimited resources,  had a nifty theory that the bore was lubricated by lube being squeezed out of the grooves by the shortening of the bullet as it was accelerated down the bore. He never explained how the long bare nose of a bore riding bullet didn't lead in a clean bore or what was happening near the muzzle when the acceleration was no longer enough to shorten the bullet. Others have good reason to believe that “bullet lube” isn't a lubricant at all and make a good case for their argument.

I think you are right we should drag this monster out from under the bed and examine it.

John

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Eutectic posted this 01 August 2016

My 788 needed a dry barrel to shot the first shot into the group. The secret was to wash out the barrel with lighter fluid. Any oil, even after a dry patch would require 3-5 shots to settle down. For cast I need to use Sweets 3 times with a 10 minute soak in between to get out all the copper and then lighter fluid. Yes, some lubes required 5 or more shots to settle down. This was a reason to reject that lube. In a clean tube, alox 50/50 or a good lube was in the group or very close from the first shot. Fouling shots are wasted ammo, and no fun! Steve

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