Dacron fillers

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linoww posted this 16 November 2012

I dont care to use it.Other opinions?

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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joeb33050 posted this 16 November 2012

DACRON WADS AND CHAMBER RINGING Much has been written about “ringing” chambers when wads, particularly Dacron wads, are used over powder. BEWARE, use of Dacron or any over-powder wad is said to cause rings in chambers. I have used Dacron wads for many years in cartridges from 223 Rem to 45/70, shooting thousands -maybe tens of thousands-of shots, and have never ringed a chamber. I continue to use Dacron wads, and recognize that there may be a risk. I have read intricate explanations of how the ringing occurs, written by presumably sincere folks who were substituting theory and/or conjecture for fact. Ed Lander, a Massachusetts gunsmith at the time, said that he believed that chamber ringing was caused by a chip catching in the reamer during the chambering process. He suggested that repeated use of one cartridge case during breech seating allowed the brass to flow into the ring. I've read everything I can find on this matter, nothing has been convincing so far.

References: "This Chamber Ring Thing", John Campbell, Precision Shooting, May 2000 Chapter 17B, “Chamber Ringing", C. Dell, “The Modern Schuetzen Rifle, 2nd Edition "Chamber Rings and Natural Fibers", ASSRA Journal, Jul-Aug 1998, J. Campbell "Chamber Rings, Another View” ASSRA Journal, Jul-Aug 2002, M.L.McPherson ASSRA Journal letters etc:, Volume, No., Pg. Author 47,6,14 J. Campbell 48,3,20 H. Angus
48,3,23 J. Brennan 48,4,16 L. Thompson 48,4,17 J. Childs 50,4,22 J. Campbell

I went to several forums on the internet, including the ASSRA forum, asking for stories about ringed chambers with Dacron. There were many responses, a host of opinions, a few death threats, but these were the only reliable stories I got about ringed chambers. Examples of the event appear thin on the ground. I continue to search for stories, if you have one please send it.

Kim Williams in New Zealand: I was using a .303 (A No. 1 Mk III* Lithgow made in 1942) with 10 gr. of 7625 powder and a grape sized wad of 100% pure cotton tamped down with a pencil and a LEE 180 gr. gas checked bullet, lubed 50/50 Alox and dipped in Lee Liquid Alox, cases were DI 1943. Average 1185 fps. No problems with several hundred shots. I increased the load gradually over a few weeks. At 11 gr., average was 1295 fps with 18 rounds going into 2 1/2” x 4 1/2” at 100 yards. At 11.5 grain average was 1340 fps and 10 shot groups at 100 Yds. were round and 2 1/2". At 12 grains 7625 my problems began. After about 3 shots of the 12 grain load, extraction became hard and I noticed a ring in the neck of the case (about where the base of the bullet was located) and when I looked inside the chamber, a corresponding ring showing as a dark line in the chamber neck. My thoughts were that the 12 grains of 7625 was too fast and too much and the flat surface of the powder (held as such by the wad) made a very fast pressure spike which was hitting the bullet base and making a ring bulge in the neck. It literally took only 1 to 3 rounds of the 12 grains load to cause the ring - only those 3 cases showed the ring mark on the neck, the previous week's cases at 11.5 gr. showed no signs. I still use the same barrel with 18 gr. H4198 and no problems with extraction, even though the ring is still there. I still use a filler but have gone off cotton or similar fillers. As they do not sell Cream of Wheat here in New Zealand, I use Medium ground Semolina mixed with graphite powder (1 cup semolina to 1 teaspoon graphite powder) and put in to halfway up the neck - I use a dipper for this. This is used with a 314299 gas check lubed with 50/50 Alox and then sized through a LEE sizer and then dipped in Lee Liquid Alox. Total weight of bullet and projectile is 230 gr. - not too far from the 215 gr. of the original jacketed Mk 6 bullet. Averages 2 1/2” 10 shot groups at 100 yards.

Voyageur on ASSRA: I have experienced one example of ringing in a rifle that I built myself. The rifle was a Falling Block, the barrel was a 32” octagon chrome-molly blank. I chambered the rifle in .50-90, used 450 grain bullets and test fired it a number of times at the range with duplex black powder (Goex Cart & 4759)... no problem. I switched to Accurate Arms 5744 and a Wonder Wad and ringed the chamber badly on the first shot. I rechambered to .50-140, switched back to duplex loads and never experienced the ringing again.

Schuetzendave on ASSRA: Of the eight Schuetzen members in our club that have fired at least 30,000 rounds through their rifle, only one has ever ringed a barrel. All of our club members place the wad directly onto the powder charge. We all use either Styrofoam wads or the material used for sealing against drafts under sill plates. However the only member to use the floral foam for wads was the one who ringed his barrel. Coincidence? Maybe. All of the barrels in question were stainless steel and we all use the .357 Max case cut back to 1.470 which is tapered with a .223 die. We all use AA#9 / H108. However the ringed barrel was chambered for a shortened 32-40 case. So is there something to be learned regarding the material used for wads or the case design or the combination of the two? If ringing was due to pushing the wad down onto the powder then I expect the rest of us should have ringed our barrels after over 30,000 rounds respectively.

Keith Johnson: I've been following the discussion on this for the past few months and guess I might as well fess up. Yes, I did, in my 45-70 BPCR and I shouldn't have tempted fate. I've used some Dacron and tp fillers, but not much, but am a fan of LDPE wads, most of which are used with full case loads, and this goes back over the past 20 years or so. HOWEVER, in the BPCR I'm using smokeless and hence the need for the filler. The load was 25.0 gr. 5744, Lyman “Mathews” 457676 @ 540 gr. seated to an OAL of 3.060. For a filler to hold the powder back I've been using the .250 thick small bubble foam they use in packaging material for cushioning, (referred to as fw) comes in sheets, you've all seen it. Cut them (and the others) in the drill press with a short length of sis tubing, .035 wall thickness, with the tubing chamfered from the id to od, so wad dia. is .480/.500. This weighs .2 gr. and is seated on top of the powder. No problem here, have shot 1000's and never found the wad. Still, with this combo, some airspace between fw and bullet base. Now I come across some other foam, 3/8” thick, wt. .4 gr., (referred to as tfw) use that on top of the fw, no airspace, but notice many of the tfw in front of the bench, showing little sign of having made that quick trip. All of these have had the LDPE wad under the bullet, seated by same. Well, in a stroke of insight, (where was that dope slap when I needed it) I thought the load might profit from a LDPE wad on the powder, +fw,+tfw+ LDPE wad +bullet, hey no empty space and slight compression on the tfw that was going thru intact. It ringed at the base of the bullet, though didn't realize it at the time. I'd fired 10 rounds. When I got to resizing the cases, noticed the ring, best I could measure on the case was .003 o/s on the ring. Moral of this, DO NOT EVER use a LDPE wad anywhere but tight on the bullet base. Upside is I sent the rifle to Lee Shaver to have it setback and rechambered. Lee suggested chamber relining, (was aware of barrel relining, but not chamber), which I agreed on. Rifle was back in 1 week, shoots as good as before, and doubt if one could tell what was done even knowing what had been done. No need to alter forearm as would have been required with the “setback and rechamber” as the octagon turns to round right at the end of the forearm. Can't aye/nay on other fillers, I continue to use the fw, and have used it with 4759, 2015 in this same cartridge. Hope this may be of some use to others, cuz, hey, it can happen.

Rick Shepardson: Well, as long as you're going to 'fess up, I may as well. About 20 years ago, before we were told this was a bad thing, I used to load a Martini Cadet rechambered to .32/40 with 14.5 gr. of IMR4227 in reformed .30-30 cases with a Rem. 9-1/2 primer and a Lyman 323470 (165 RNGC) with a 0.10 grain Dacron wad seated on the powder. It was superbly accurate and fun to shoot. After a while, I noticed that extraction was getting problematic. Investigation revealed that the chamber had ringed at the base of the bullet after a lot of rounds. It's still very accurate but I need to use a cleaning rod to remove the fired cases. I was using fixed ammo, bullet was approx #2 Lyman alloy seated to just contact the rifling, the Dacron puff (about 1/2” dia) was used per the recommendations of one of the gunwriters (don't recall who) of the time for small powder charges. This was used from the start of load development. The Martini Cadet action makes it very difficult to get a good visual in the area as it is not one of those drilled for cleaning from the breech, but extraction was initially good and deteriorated the more that I shot it. The ring seems to be in about the middle of the case neck, which would be the location of the base of the bullet. Accuracy is still superb with the 323470 or 319261. Need to rebarrel one of these days.

Geoff: I used Dacron for quite a while in 30-06 with small charges of W231 pistol powder and 311255, a 119-grain round nose plain base bullet. All was well until I varied my technique slightly without thinking about it. What I did, was push the Dacron through the case neck with a pencil, ending up with a space between the tuft of Dacron and the bullet base. The only effect was that I found melted toroidal masses of Dacron stuck to the rear web of the cases after firing. I dug them out when reloading, and didn't think much about it except for wondering how it had happened. However I then did the same thing with the same powder and bullet in 30-30, and it was not so harmless. I got pronounced rings in the cases at the junction of the shoulder and neck, which happened to be where the bullet base was. In the higher loads the neck ring was bad enough to prevent extracting the case with the Marlin action, and I had to use a cleaning rod. It seems clear to me that the Dacron was forming a compressed wad, and hitting the base of the bullet as an internal projectile. With the strong 30-06 case, the wad just bounced off the bullet and stuck to the rear web. With the thin 30-30 case, the wad damaged the case neck when it impacted the bullet base. Incidentally the wad was not retained in the 30-30 cases as it had been in the 30-06s. So, my experience is that so far I've had no problems with Dacron tufts that completely fill the airspace in the case, but I've had quite serious problems with Dacron tufts just pushed down with a pencil through the case neck. I don't recommend use of Dacron at all, though I still try it from time to time myself - but I'm very careful to ensure it springs up against the bullet base.

Geoff; Did the chamber of the 30/30 or 30/06 rifle get ringed? How much Dacron did you use in 30/30. I use a teased ball about as big as a nickel in 45/70, somewhat smaller in 30 caliber. Pushed down on the powder and tamped with a pencil. Almost zero weight though. May I quote this in the CBA book?” Thanks; joe brennan

Geoff: "Joe, At that time I used the tufted bulk Dacron rather than the type that is in rolled sheets. The tufted style seems to me to be more dense - you can't see through a small tuft of it, whereas you can with the sheet type. The tuft was of a size to fill the cartridge case without teasing it out, or compressing it either - just a case full in its natural state. Pushing it down into the case with the pencil resulted in the front third of the case interior being empty. As far as I can tell there was no damage to the chamber of the 30-06. The cases showed no sign of being misshapen at the time, or subsequently. In the 30-30 if I hold fired cases up to a bright light and rotate them, I can see a slight bulge at the shoulder-to-neck joint, in the same place where the original ring occurred. There is no effect on case extraction, and as far as I know accuracy has not been affected either. I am still using the same set of 30-30 cases, despite ten of them having been ringed - they have been loaded 10 times now, FLS each time with the die backed off about a third of a turn from shell-holder contact, and only two have been retired, both due to shoulder cracks. They have never been annealed from new. Of course you are welcome to use the report in the CBA book if you wish.

Stew: It was 30 years ago. I bought the Remington 700 BDL 30/06 new and the chamber was correct, with no excessive machining marks. It was fired with several hundred jacketed bullet loads before I decided to try my hand at shooting cast. In addition to cleaning the bores, I always clean the chambers of my rifles, and inspect them from the breech end with the muzzle pointed at a strong light. The chamber was good before I started fooling around with the cast bullets. I only had about 2-3 years experience handloading at the time, so I was, admittedly, near the bottom of the learning curve (as we all were at one time). I did, however, read everything I could get my hands on regarding guns and handloading, and I tried to replicate most of what I found interesting in the various magazines, handloading and cast bullet manuals, books and whatever else I could find to learn from. The bullet was the Lee 190 grain flat nose GC (looks like C309-170-F, but weighs 190), with the GC, and the powder was a book load of Unique. I couldn't get my hands on anything else at the time, so I know the primer was a CCI 200. Since the Unique wasn't giving me very good accuracy, I decided to try the Dacron filler, as suggested in several of the articles and cast bullet books I read. I don't remember any of the articles saying that the Dacron was to be inserted loosely in the case, and when I inserted it, it didn't appear that the fluffy stuff had any possibility of keeping the powder next to the primer (for good ignition, as the books said), so I pushed it down until it seemed to remain in a position that I thought would help it serve its intended purpose. It wasn't “packed", it was just pressed down so that it was a mildly expanded wad of material on top of the powder that didn't move when the case was shaken. Accuracy didn't improve appreciably, and upon cleaning the rifle, I found the chamber's new feature, a ring, right where the bullet base was located in the loaded rounds.

Ken Mollohan: I have used fillers and wads for decades. I have used wax wads in the mouth of cases as lubricants, and I have used Dacron that varied from a tuft to all I could stuff in the case with a pencil. I have used them at high-pressure loads, and with plinking loads. I have used them with straight cases and with heavily bottlenecked cases. For the most part, I have had very good results with them. I have also managed to ring a chamber slightly with a wad that was pressed down over the powder, leaving a substantial air space before the base of the bullet. I was playing around with squib loads that weren't burning cleanly. The loads were using wax wads for lube, which were installed by pressing a sheet of wax down over the charged case. The bullet wasn't seated more than about ¼ inch, with the idea of letting it align itself with the throat. In any case, I was extracting some pretty dirty cases, and had a lot of residue, and very low velocities. I decided to see if better ignition / burning could result from confining the powder a bit more, so I used a pencil to push the wad down tight against the powder at the base of the case. This was years ago, and I don't even remember what the next shot did for power, impact, etc. I only remember that when I inspected the bore for unburnt powder, I saw a slight ring just where the base of the bullet would have been. Fortunately, it was at the very mouth of the chamber, and extraction wasn't affected. I like to experiment, but ‘testing-to-destruction' was more expensive than my wallet could stand, so I didn't try to evaluate any cause and effects. I just made a mental note that I was NOT going to seat any wads like that again, and let it go at that.
FWIW, I have read a lot of armchair ballisticians holding forth on explanations that involve the light wad being driven at very high velocities into the bullet base, causing it to upset with enough force to ring the chamber. Sometimes they blame an air column being pinched between the wad and the bullet. Sometimes they say the wax wad itself expands or splatters when it hits the base of the bullet, and its forward velocity is converted to sideways pressure that does the evil deed. It all sounds reasonable until you give it some thought: The wax wad may or may not expand when it hits the base of the bullet, but ringing is reported with cardboard and felt wads too - and they sure don't expand. And I can't believe a sheet of paper or Dacron can be given sufficient velocity to impact and upset the base of even pure lead, much less hard alloy bullets. And even if they could, someone will have to explain to me why this is so different from ordinary base upset, which some people go to a lot of trouble to achieve. I can't see that bullet base upset from the impact of a pressure wave should behave so differently from base upset from the impact of a felt wad.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not calling anyone a liar. I'm just pointing out that we really don't have a handle on the underlying causes of ringing at all, except that it seems to require an air gap between the wad and the base of the bullet. My recommendation is to avoid forming any such gaps in your reloads until someone can prove out exactly what is going on here.

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tturner53 posted this 16 November 2012

I shot 10 yesterday experimenting with a HV 30-06 load in my CZ 550 FS. No harm done. Accuracy wasn't match grade but it's a starting point. I used IMR 4350, dacron, and a Saeco #315. Estimated velocity was 2200 fps but no actual idea yet.  All 10 went into 3” at 100 yds. I've experimented with dacron, COW, etc. with no ill effects. Can't say what's better than what, though. (Hey, my ignore button works great!) EDIT: For a reference this gun's best day with any cb load is 1 1/4” and that's hard to get. Of all things it turns out the Ranch Dog 30-30 bullet fits my CZ and shoots the best!. Go figure.

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LWesthoff posted this 16 November 2012

As I understand it, fillers are used to keep the powder back against the primer. I have seen data which indicates that MV is higher and standard deviation lower with the powder charge back against the primer. HOWEVER, from what I have read, the main advantage to be had from consistant powder position is that it helps achieve consistant ignition. I started using dacron fillers 'way back when I first started messing around with CB rifle loads. I quit when I read about the possibility of ringing chambers. I tried raising the muzzle, lowering the muzzle, etc. and finally settled on rolling the case on the follower before chambering, because it seemed to me I could achieve the most consistant, UNIFORM powder positioning that way. So far, it seems to work pretty well.

Obviously, that approach won't work in a hunting situation, but I'm not trying to put a string of bullets through the same hole when I'm hunting, and I 've never expected bench rest accuracy when shooting at any 4 legged targets anyway.

For some of the nitpickers, No, I haven't conducted extensive, documented tests to prove my chosen method is the best. Got better ways to spend my time.

Wes

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onondaga posted this 16 November 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=807>linoww:

George, I use the stuff. It is not my favorite. I'd rather use no fillers and have a load that fills the case with a powder charge that my bullets and rifle likes. That is hard to do with some calibers. The 30-06 with its large capacity for powder combined with cast bullets needing lower pressure to shoot accurately is where  Dacron fiber filler shines for me.

a charge of H4895 and a 170 grain FNGC going 2000 fps leaves a lot of room in the 30-06. There is enough room that misfires and velocity wandering can occur. The filler stops that for me and my 1903A3 really groups nice. I also use H4831SC at similar load levels.

I have found a surplus powder that will give the same velocity at a similar pressure with about a case full of the powder. But I am going to have to get a 7 pound jug of it just to try it and that is a gamble I am almost ready to try. IMR7383 from Bartlett Reloaders is the one I am considering. It is new powder and not a pulldown at $56/7 lbs plus fees/shipping. Bartlett says,"It is a very bulky powder that has the same propellant energy as IMR4831 by volume, but weighs less than the same volume of IMR4831. You can work up loads using IMR4831 data reduced 15% by weight"

This sounds like about a bunch of IMR7383 will give me a load without needing filler in the 30-06 with my heavy cast bullets.

Gary

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runfiverun posted this 17 November 2012

gary wiljen and a few others done a write up in cast pics on the 7383 powder. i have a done a little testing with it and it is not as it seems. once you find a load that starts to shoot clean with it you are at the top end for pressure. be careful working loads up with it. as it will go from dirty to clean to over pressure justlikethat.

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linoww posted this 17 November 2012

"The 30-06 with its large capacity for powder combined with cast bullets needing lower pressure to shoot accurately is where Dacron fiber filler shines for me."

I see 2400 and 5744 shooting small groups/scores from military class rifles with no filler to see a reason to use it.Going to a slower powder and using a filler/wad makes no sense to me.I hate the extra loading step as well.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 17 November 2012

When I worked at Ruger we had a small storage room the size of an outhouse which was packed tight with ringed chamber customer service returns, mostly .45-70s, which had chamber rings in various locations depending upon the shank length of the bullet.  You could readily tell which people had tried 300, 330, 350, 400, 500 grain bullets by the location of pressure rings where the hullet bases would have been. Over 100 rifles....Think of this as a clue.....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Chargar posted this 17 November 2012

When I was young and limber and could jump a three rail fence, I knew a couple of guys that hunted ducks and geese with high base magnum loads in their grandads twist steel/damascus barreled shotguns. I told them they were looking for an accident and a blow shotgun.

I was informed they they and several other generations had hunted with this shotgun and never had a problem and could see no reason to stop now.

I know folks who use dacron fillers in cast bullet loads and have done so for thousands of rounds.

When told that might result in a ringed chamber..well you know the rest of the story.

"Some folks learn by listening, some by reading and some by watching. The others have to piss on the electric fence"...Will Rogers

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 November 2012

"   "Some folks learn by listening, some by reading and some by watching. The others have to piss on the electric fence"...Will Rogers    “

you called ?

when i wuz young ....i stuck my tongue on a frozen well handle ... had to have mom pour warm water over it to get  ....most of it ....   loose ...

later i and my equally --- adventuresome ... buddies engaged in bb gun wars .... with live bb's..   got hit, too ...

i also got lost for hours and had to be rescued from a very large cornfield; raced and crashed farm tractors, almost drowned, crushed by very large horses, ..etc. etc. .....  dang !  what a great childhood !  ennyway, i still think i will be the first to utilize fillers/wads to some fantasized great benefit ... and not get a ” ringer ” ....

color me charmed ...

ken

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CB posted this 17 November 2012

When I use fillers I use COW or sawdust or Cornmeal. No rings as of yet. The COW smells like breakfast is ready when you fire it.

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