7.62X39 conversion

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Lefty posted this 13 January 2013

I have a Savage center feed 223. This is a new rifle that I was fortunate enough to buy right. I don't need another 223 but do not have a 7.62X39. This could be the beginning of this winters project. I will need to change bolt heads which I believe is easily accomplished. While I could make this a single shot rifle, it would be more fun if it would feed from the magazine. Can this be accomplished reasonably easily? Does anyone have any experience a conversion like this?

Another option would be to go to a 300 Wisper conversion. I am not looking to create a deer rifle so the smaller case does not present too much of a problem.

Thoughts? Experiences? My goal is not to be practical here. It is to have a fun project and end up with an accurate “plinker".

Thank for your input.

Jim

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gpb posted this 18 January 2013

Unfortunately I can't offer you any help based on my experience in doing a conversion to a Savage/Stevens rifle. However, I am currently kicking around the idea of a similar conversion to yours.

I'm thinking about starting with a Stevens 200 in .223 or .308 and converting it to .30 Remington. The reason I selected the .30 Remington is because I think it would make a good bolt action cast bullet round. Years ago I shot cast bullets using a Remington 788 in .308 Winchester. I got good results, but I always thought that the .308 case had more capacity than was needed and I didn't like the relatively short case neck. I didn't think that the short neck gives optimum support, alignment or containment of the bullet and lube.

The .30 Remington is basically, but not quite, a rimless .30-30 Winchester. Loading data for the two are for all practical purposes interchangeable. The .30 Remington would give me the advantages of a .30-30 without the disadvantages of a rim in a bolt action.

Cases for .30 Remington can be a problem I have 200 new unfired 30 Remington shells that I bought a few years ago for this project. Also, with a little lathe work on the rim and some neck expansions and reductions I should be able to make .30 Remington from .30-30 Winchester. Headspace could be problem, but I think I can work around that.

PTG is selling a Savage bolt head for the 6.8, so a bolt head shouldn't be a problem. If worse comes to worse I could open a .223 bolt head.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this idea?

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Lefty posted this 19 January 2013

Actually I considered the same conversion. My number 1 concern was a proper sized bolt head. You have answered that question - maybe. My rifle is left handed and the bolt heads are different.

Are you going to use the rifle as a single shot? If not, the case size could present problems with the magazine. My rifle has the new center feed magazine. I know you can purchase a new magazine box in one of the standard sizes but I am unsure if the 30 Rem (or the 6.8 SPC) would feed through the 308 magazine box. The case diameter might be small enough so that it won't stay put in the mag.

I looked at the 30/223 which would solve both the bolt head and the magazine problem. That is a strange case with very little shoulder so I have not gotten there yet. This circular thinking is what brought me ultimately to the 7.62X39.

Right now I think my second choice would be a 7MM TCU. Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 January 2013

consider a 222/223/6mm   ....this would create a great opportunity to add to the ” smallbore ” knowledge that a is being assumed ...er.. i mean assimulated .... here in a long ongoing thread ...

also, that would allow a little shoulder on the chamber ...30 degrees would be nice ......my pick would be 222-6mmm ....longer neck ...

and ppg charge$ the same for any chamber reamer ...   apply the no-bolt-head-charges to the new reamer

and should feed thru your magazine ...

gee it's fun to spend other shooters money   ( g ) ..

ken

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Lefty posted this 19 January 2013

Good thoughts Ken. I have been considering a 6X45 conversion as well. If I read your post correctly, I picked up some skepticism about cast bullet “conventional wisdom” or at least a desire to research small calibres more. I have followed the research done by many on 22 cal cast bullets. I have been somewhat confused by a lack of similar focus on the 6MMs. There certainly is precedent in the CBA that a 243 can be made to shoot well.

Keep going Ken. You have a creative bent.

Jim

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gpb posted this 19 January 2013

I have thought about the magazine issue with .30 Remington, and right now I don't know what I'll do. Since I'll only use the rifle off the bench, if it turns out to be a single shot that won't be a real concern to me. I'll see if I can get a magazine to function. I hope that the magazine box is metal and not plastic. If the length is right I'll try opening the lips on a .223 magazine box and see if that works, if not I'll try closing the lips on a .308 box. If the magazine box is plastic, I'll settle for a single shot.

I also thought about the 30/223. My concern with that cartridge was the short neck. It seemed to me that it would be more of a problem than the .308 Win neck. However, I like the small case capacity. This caused me to consider pushing the shoulder further back on a .223 and giving it a long .308 neck. This would result in a cartridge that looked like a long necked 30/222. However, this cartridge would also be tricky as far as headspace. Another problem is that this would be a wildcat with custom reamer, and dies, and I could still run into magazine problems since the loaded round would be considerably longer than a .223.

As far as caliber selection I chose .30 caliber because this rifle will be used primarily for cast bullets. I have cast .30 caliber in the past with fair success. However, I remember that it took a good amount of effort to get good bullets. I'm just not sure that I have the skill to cast bullets in a smaller caliber. Casting .30 and above I'm good to go. Below .30 I'm not so sure. Maybe if this .30 Remington works out, I'll try a .25 Remington. I'll get some .25 caliber mold blocks first and see if I can cast .25. I'd rather risk a small amount on mold blocks first. Since it's a Savage I could just do a barrel swap for .25 Remington.

Concerning right hand versus left hand bolt heads, the best I can tell from pictures is that they differ in the location of the ejector hole. The PTG site indicates that they also make left handed bolt heads.

Dick

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 19 January 2013

What about the 300 blackout aac whisper?

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gpb posted this 20 January 2013

To: TRK

"What about the 300 blackout aac whisper?"

I'm not sure if that question was addressed to me. However, I did consider the 300 blackout and or Whisper. I had a couple of concerns with the cartridge.

The first was the short neck. It's .266 inch vs. .477 inch for the .30 Remington. I don't know if it makes any real difference, but one of my concerns when I loaded cast bullets in .308 Win. with its' short neck (.303 inch) was exposing bullet lube directly to the powder charge. It may not make any difference, but I wanted to eliminate that possiblilty.

I was also concerned about headspace with this cartridge. The small shoulder may be adequate, but I'm not sure.

The last concern was that I saw some reports that some people had problems with ejection and feeding of short cases like .221 and Whisper/Blackout from Savage actions. I'm not sure how valid these reports are, they simply added one more concern for me concerning this cartridge.

In many respects this cartridge would be an easier conversion than the .30 Remington. There are a couple of barrel makers that offer Savage drop in barrels in this caliber. No one offers .30 Remington. I suspect getting a barrel chamber in .30 Remington will be a major task in this project. Also, there would be no problems with the bolt head.

Finally, and there's no way to evaluate this, the .30 Remington is just a neat old cartridge that time has forgotten.

Dick

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Lefty posted this 20 January 2013

Dick Its late tonight. In the morning I will look at my savage and see if I can answer a couple of your questions about the magazine. Jim

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Lefty posted this 20 January 2013

I did some measuring on my Savage. The magazine box should accommodate a cartridge with an OAL of 2.35". Like most 223 actions, there is a 1/2” block at the rear of the magazine.

A 223 case measures 1.557” to the base of the neck. Hence the bullet would be limited a length of .8” or slightly more if the loaded round is going to function through the magazine AND the base of the bullet is not going to extend too far below the base of the neck. I have two 25 cal molds for my 25-20. The 85 gr FN is .75” long. The RN version is slightly longer.

However if a 222 case is used as the basis of the wildcat, there is more flexibility. the 222 case is 1.387” to the base of the neck. Allowing for the gas check, a 1” long bullet will function through the magazine while not extending below the base of the neck. This length should be ample to accommodate most 6MM bullets and 25 cal bullets
somewhat heavier than 100 grains.

I need to look up some custom mold specs for 25 cal molds. Is anyone aware of a 25 cal bullet which is about 110 gr and about an 1” long? Jim

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John Alexander posted this 21 January 2013

gpb wrote:

As far as caliber selection I chose .30 caliber because this rifle will be used primarily for cast bullets. I have cast .30 caliber in the past with fair success. However, I remember that it took a good amount of effort to get good bullets. I'm just not sure that I have the skill to cast bullets in a smaller caliber. Casting .30 and above I'm good to go. Below .30 I'm not so sure.

gpb, Have you actually had trouble casting small bullets or just heard the old wives tales that they are more difficult. I have cast 22 bullets from about every mold on the market and from several custom designs and have never found them any harder to cast than larger calibers. The short stubby ones are a pain to handle. John

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lmcollins posted this 21 January 2013

I like Lefty's thinking on the long neck thing. This takes us back to the old Wooters 25/222 Copperhead, or Sam Fadala's 6mm/222.

If you want a bigger round try the 6mm or 257 bullet in the 222Mag case. Better today would probably be the 204Ruger case.

Is the neck of a 204Ruger case thick enough to expand to .243 or .257? Someone find a 204 Ruger case and tell us!

There are not many molds for “short” bullets for either diameter to match the small case are there?

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gpb posted this 21 January 2013

To Lefty:

Thanks for the information on the Savage magazine. I'll probably start looking for a Stevens 200 in .308 Win. this week. With the current demand for firearm related goods I hope I can find one.

I choose the .308 because it may offer the best hope of getting the magazine to function with .30 Remington cartridges. Also, I can cast and shoot .30 caliber bullets in it while I gather the parts to assemble the .30 Remington.

In reply to John Alexander who wrote:

“gpb, Have you actually had trouble casting small bullets or just heard the old wives tales that they are more difficult. I have cast 22 bullets from about every mold on the market and from several custom designs and have never found them any harder to cast than larger calibers. The short stubby ones are a pain to handle. John”

I have not cast bullets smaller than .30 caliber and my trepidation on casting smaller than .30 is based on past history. First some background. I did a lot of bullet casting more than thirty years ago. However, due to having to make many moves in my career, I haven't been able to cast bullets for over thirty years. I'm recently retired and getting back into it.

When I was casting, I cast bullets in .45 ACP, .38 Spl., and .308 Win. From thirty years ago I remember that 45 were easy, 38 were fairly easy and that 30 were beginning to become difficult. I was able to shoot 30 with good results. However, as the bullet diameters had became smaller, the number of culls increased. Therefore, as a re-entry point into bullet casting I have chosen .30 caliber. If I can cast 30 caliber and get good groups, I'll consider a smaller caliber as my next step. For now, one step at a time.

So in summary, I chose 30 as having the degree of difficulty that would provide a good re-entry point to bullet casting. It would offer a nice challenge, but not be so over whelming as to discourage further activity.

Dick

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Lefty posted this 21 January 2013

lmcollins wrote: I like Lefty's thinking on the long neck thing. This takes us back to the old Wooters 25/222 Copperhead, or Sam Fadala's 6mm/222.

If you want a bigger round try the 6mm or 257 bullet in the 222Mag case. Better today would probably be the 204Ruger case.

Is the neck of a 204Ruger case thick enough to expand to .243 or .257? Someone find a 204 Ruger case and tell us!

There are not many molds for “short” bullets for either diameter to match the small case are there?

=========================================== See the 257 Kimber for a 25 cal based on a 222 Mag case. There also has been some work done with a 25/204. This is a fairly powerful cartridge but requires a longer action (or single shot) with the use of cast bullets.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 22 January 2013

you can't rest yet, buddy ! we haven't talked about ...the 220 Russian case !

i gotta make the case( owchie ) for this ...mostly because it is the mother brass for the 6ppc .... and it is made by ....LAPUA ...gotta be worth 1/10 moa right there ... i keep one right by my computer ....there is nothing wrong with the factory shape ..so just neck it up and you got the best of the best ...about a 30 gr. capacity ....similar to 30 remmy .... you could sell those 30 remmy , buy 220 rusky ... ken

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Lefty posted this 22 January 2013

TRK wrote:

What about the 300 blackout aac whisper?

25 copperhead dies and reamer look very hard to find. They will be very expensive if I could find them. 6 month wait?

I remembered your post and have looked hard at the 300 AAC Blackout the last 24 hours. There are dies at the local store and my gunsmith already has a reamer. I had a hard time finding data that was not AR tactical based but the new Hornady Manual has what I needed. The cartridge seems to have cast bullet merit in a bolt gun. Thanks for the tip.

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Lefty posted this 23 January 2013

FYI I am proceeding with the 300 BLK. I ordered the barrel this morning. There will be no alteration of the rifle required. While I don't contemplate it at this time, the rifle could easily be set up as a switch barrel. I guess a Savage is in essence a switch barrel gun as is. :D

Jim

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 23 January 2013

Jim - Coooool. Keep us posted. I've got a Martini Cadet that is boxed up to send in to get rebarreled to 300 AAC. Brass was made by a fellow who posts here - worked over .223 brass.

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Lefty posted this 23 January 2013

Lets stay in touch as we move down the learning curve. I think this calibre will be very well suited to shooting cast. If I can get the rifle in time, I intend to shoot it in the postal matches. It would have to be a “heavy rifle” but that is ok. I don't need to win, just have a good time.

Jim

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Paul Pollard posted this 30 January 2013

My boy took his 300 BLK out today. It seemed to like a little softer bullet. He said the 22 BHN linotype bullets did not shoot as well as the 18 BHN linotype bullets. Two weeks ago, we thought the different lube caused the wider groups. Today, both sets of bullets had the same lube.

He used the LBT 309-200 SP. It weighed 196 grains and 15 gr H4227. The harder lino bullets weighed 188 grains, same powder charge.

He made this look much better than a plinker. I think it can be competitive in cast bullet competition.

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John Alexander posted this 30 January 2013

I haven't checked but isn't the 300 BLK (or the Whisper} getting pretty close to the case capacity a lot of the plain base shooters are using such as the 32 Miller etc? And they are shooting them with 200 grain bullets but at a lower speed. Of course the PB shooters like a rim for their single shots. That might tell us something.

John

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Lefty posted this 30 January 2013

Actually I am quite hopeful that this can be a competitive competition calibre. I am thinking that I will use 14-16 gr of powder and try to get around 1750 fps. I don't have the reamer specs at hand but the gunsmith said the 300 BLK reamer has significant “freebore” and the a gentle taper of 1 1/2 degrees. Upon inspection it was clear that the reamer does produce a long throat. I am going to have him do a chamber cast before he ever assembles the rifle. That should be very helpful as load development proceeds.

There does not seem to be any commercial brass available so I am going to try my hand at forming some brass tomorrow.

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Tom Acheson posted this 30 January 2013

Jim,

Which chambering are you going to use...the 300 BLK or the 7.62x39? Lapua makes good 7.62 x39 and maybe R-P still makes their version with the small primer pocket.

If you would like to look at parent case of 223 and neck-up to .30 cal. I have a reamer. It's been known by many names since the early 70's but the one I have is called the 30 Silhouette. I have an XP-100 chambered that way and a RPM XL single shot pistol but someday would like to do a rifle.

Tom

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Lefty posted this 30 January 2013

Tom I am going with the 300 BLK. JK in Bloomington is doing the work. He has the reamer and we are just waiting for the barrel. The cases can be made from 223 brass. Simply put you cut the case off behind the shoulder, size to form the shoulder and then trim to length.

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Lefty posted this 30 January 2013

Here is a dummy case I made this afternoon. The bullet is the RCBS 200 sil and the OAL = 2.25". I am not sure a bullet this long will work in the throat. It will work in the magazine.

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lmcollins posted this 31 January 2013

Inless I have missed something, there is no need to do a chamber cast.

The gunsmith has the reamer he is using: he can just measure it. Your chamber should be within .0001's. Why measure the shoe when you have the foot?

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muley posted this 31 January 2013

GPB, If u are considering the steves 200 in 308, why not rechamber to a 30Br? u would have a shorter case, 30 cal and a good shooter. use the robinett reamer. u will have to turn cases but it will work well. Jim

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gpb posted this 31 January 2013

Muley: PM sent gpb

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Paul Pollard posted this 01 February 2013

Attached is a photo of the 300 BLK case and bullet. The bullet on the left is the LBT 309-200 SP. The other is NOE 311-245. The loaded case on the right is the 308 Win with the LBT bullet. Both these bullets are sized to .3095 and then tapered in a die which sizes the nose to .3005. Sizing the nose as a bore ride allows the bullet to be seated about half way up the neck. Have not shot the NOE yet. Next time out, he will try the plain base version and the GC version.

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Lefty posted this 01 February 2013

Nice picture - thank you. So you have shot the LBT bullet? Anything noteworthy?

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Paul Pollard posted this 01 February 2013

LBT bullet at 18 BHN. Six five-shot groups in the order shot: 1.5 1.1 0.9 1.1 0.75 0.5

Six group aggregate - 0.975.

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Lefty posted this 02 February 2013

thats noteworthy:)

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6mmintl posted this 14 July 2013

How to lob a football (7.62x39mm) 600-800 yards

The rifle Czechoslovakian VZ24, Krieger 26” .308 bore 1x10” twist, chambered in 7.62x39mm Lapua., adapted Romanian single stack mags to trigger guard with AK latch, feeds smooth as silk with mags.

How to lob a football (7.62x39mm) 600 yards.

Made it to the Sac Valley 3x600 yard prone match today April 21st 2012 with the Mauser in 7.62x39mm Lapua chamber with the 1x10” Krieger .300/.308 barrel. 15X scope with mildot reticle.

Load was 27.7 grains of RG (Radway Green) 4895 halfway up the neck and seated the 155 grain Lapua Scenar Palma bullet to 2.480 .015” off the lands in Winchester cases. Estimated velocity is 2100 FPS

Conditions for the first match were perfect 70 Degrees with a 3-4 MPH 7-2 o'clock wind direction. 31 minutes of elevation 200-600 yards (double std .308/168 elev/wind values).

Took only 4 sighters to get in the ten ring of the MR-1 600 yard target and went for score, ended up a 190-7x for a very comfortable predictable drift/holdover corrections of mostly 1/2 minute thru out the string.

Second string wind worked up to 6-10 mph 7-2 o'clock wind direction and the 155 Scenar went south, way south and unpredictable drop/slide/and dive. Started by running out of elevation and had to use dot reticle for 3 more minutes elevation and windage, ended up with a 144-1x, the 155 Scenar hit the ballistic wall at 7-10 mph and at 2100 FPS velocity.

You cannot drive them fast enough to take advantage of the ballistics at the low velocity and higher wind drift values.

Last match winds were still 6-9MPH and then calmed down to 2-4MPH; I redeemed myself with a 168-2X

Lesson learned is the gun will shot sub MOA with 155 and 150's out to 500 yards but are too heavy to reliably drive them out to 600 yards with current load in all but very mild conditions 2-6 MPH and steady winds to take advantage of bullet ballistics. (500 yard max reliability?) “More Powder”

Will now move on the my original target bullet of the Sierra 135 grain HPBT bullet at around 2300-2375 FPS to see if we can pick apart that 500-600 yard gap.

How to lob a football (7.62x39mm) 800 yards #2

Made it to the Sac Valley 300/500/600/800 military rifle long range prone match Sunday April 29, 2012 with the Mauser in 7.62x39mm Lapua chamber, 25.5” 1x10” Krieger .300”/.308” barrel, with 15X scope with mildot reticle.

300 yard load was 27.7 grains of RG (Radway Green) 4895 halfway up the neck and seated the 155 grain Lapua Scenar Palma bullet to 2.480 .015” off the lands in Winchester cases. Estimated velocity is 2100 FPS. Conditions for the first match were perfect 80 Degrees with a 3-4 MPH 9-3 o'clock wind direction. 3 minutes up from my previous 200 yard elevation.

Took 2 sighters, both 10's and went for record, X,X, 8 (squib load went low) 10, X,X,X,X,X,X, for a 98-8X

Moved to 500 yards with same load of 27.7 grains of RG (Radway Green) 4895 halfway up the neck and seated the 155 grain Lapua Scenar Palma bullet to 2.480 .015” off the lands in Winchester cases. Estimated velocity is 2100 FPS. Conditions for the second match were again perfect 80 Degrees with a 3-6 MPH 9-3 o'clock wind direction then a reversal right to left of 3 mph. 12 minutes up from my previous 300 yard elevation. Sighters were to tens and proceeded to shoot tens and liner nines with four windage changes of 1 moa or less in mild switching winds for a 91-1X

Moved to 600 yards with same load of 28.1 grains of RG (Radway Green) 4895 halfway up the neck and seated the 155 grain Sierra Palma bullet to 2.380 . in Winchester cases. Estimated velocity is 2200 FPS. Conditions for the third match were again perfect 80 Degrees with a 3-6 MPH 9-3 o'clock wind direction then a couple of boils thrown in and back to 3-6 mph. 21 minutes up from my previous 300 yard elevation. Sighters were 10/x and proceeded to shoot tens and liner nines with three windage changes of 1 moa or less in mild switching winds for a 94-1X

Moved to 800 yards with same load of 28.1 grains of RG (Radway Green) 4895 halfway up the neck and seated the 155 grain Sierra Palma bullet to 2.380” OAL . in Winchester cases. Estimated velocity is 2200 FPS. Conditions for the forth match were again perfect 80 Degrees with 6-9 MPH 9-3/11-5/8-2/3-9/2-7 o'clock wind directions with a couple of boils thrown in and back to 3-6 mph 9-3. 34 minutes up from my previous 300 yard elevation. Sighters with 135 Sierra's were not promising due to light charge and went with 155's, sighters were 7/10 and proceeded to shoot all over the place due to switching winds/reversals using 3-8 MOA windage with three misses, also believe I made two over and two under corrections for windage. Ended with a 64-1X

Total score was 347-10X, X400. Open class winner shot 372, I believe I came in 3rd out of 7 open class shooters. The gun continues to shoot sub MOA with 155's out to 500, 1 MOA out to 600 yards and 40% of the shots at 800 were 1 MOA elevation but left or right of center. The .4 grains heavier charge of RG4895 and 155 sierra's shot better then the Lapua's as the Lapua's have more bearing surface and show more pressure and vertical signs. I now think I can go .2 to .4 grains heavier with the 155 Sierra's. for 600-800

How to lob a football (7.62x39mm) 500 meters #3

Shot the Sac Valley Military Rifle Silhouette 40 shot match May 19th, 2012 with the 7.62 x39mm AK round, Krieger 1x10 twist barreled VZ24 Mauser rifle.

I have now gone up approx. ½ grain in powder charges and this rifle is coming alive.

Knocked down all 10 chickens @ 200 meters, 135 Sierra MK , 90% center (less then MOA) hits
Scope elev. on Zero. 29.3 gr. AA2230

Knocked down all 10 pigs @ 300 meters, 135 Sierra MK + 5 moa from 200 meter. Zero. 90% center (less then MOA) hits, 29.3 gr. AA2230

Knocked down 8 turkeys @ 385 meters, 135 Sierra MK +14.25 MOA from 200 meter. Zero. 80% center (less then MOA) hits, 29.3 gr. AA2230

Knocked down 6 Rams, and rang (center hits) 3 rams @500 meters, +19 MOA from 200 meter. Zero. 60% hits in 1.75 MOA group on head/neck/horn (only way to knock them down) with the 155 Sierra Palma MK loaded with 28.8 RG4895

34 total downed, 3 hit but left standing out of 40, good for 1st place in the open military sporter class.

Gun is accurate, held ½ MOA elevation all the way out to 500 meters, am now only 6 MOA off of std. 308 Winchester 168MK loads

New loads are working fine, no high pressure signs but I am getting close.

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Vassal posted this 15 July 2013

Nice conversion 6mm!

I Converted my savage centerfeed (223) to a 6.5 Grendel And it works and feeds great! I just spread the lips a bit an VOILA!

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6mmintl posted this 11 February 2014

I recently had a Czechoslovakian VZ24 rebarrelled with a Krieger 26” .308 bore 1x13” twist (takeoff Palma barrel) , chambered in 7.62x39mm Lapua by Kendog on this forum.

This was a long time concept build between us for using better .308 diameter bullets.

I solved the magazine/feeding issue by adapting Romanian single stack AK mags to trigger guard with AK latch (not shown) and it feeds smooth as silk.

I made a bolt spacer (shown in bottom photo) to shorten bolt throw.

Bolt face was welded up and extractor ground to seat deeper to smaller case dia.

I made an ejector (mounted in thumb slot area of receiver to eject shells to shortened bolt throw.

Im shooting Sierra 135 matchkings out to 300 meters, and 155 Palma matchkings out to 500 meters on military silhouette rifle course (prone off rest)  here in Northern Ca.

The gun shoots .375 MOA, and 18.5 minutes out to 500 meters (155 SMK) with 200 meter (135 SMK) zero, using 29.3 grains of AA2230 bullets seated out to 2.360” OAL,  No pressure signs I believe due to the longer throat of reamer design.

Don't know about the savage action mods required, Kendog has ongoing issues with a Remington, a single stack mag is a definite plus.

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