A BPCR Postal?

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  • Last Post 22 September 2013
Tom Acheson posted this 23 January 2013

Looking for anyone who has experience participating in the CBA Postal program that might have an interest in a new event.

The gun to be used would be a rifle that fits the NRA rules for their Black Powder Cartridge Rifle (BPCR) silhouette game. These are hunting or military style single shots originally made for use with black powder (including modern manufacture replicas), with an exposed hammer, American manufactured prior to 1896, and weighs no more than 12-pounds 2-ounces with iron sights or 15-pounds with a scope. Scope must have external adjustments, ¾” dia. or smaller and no limitation on magnification. Bullets must be cast lead, plain based. Powder is black powder or Pyrodex but no smokeless powder in any quantity which excludes duplex loads. Rifle examples include Ballard, Maynard, Peabody, Remington Hepburn, Remington Rolling Block, Sharps, Springfield trapdoor, Stevens No. 44, and 1885 Winchester. No Schuetzen-style rifles. There are other examples but I need to keep this short for now.

We would shoot from the ground, either sitting or prone, using cross sticks. The distance would be 200-yards. The target would be a NRA chicken silhouette on paper (still thinking if it will be a reduced size because in a regular match this is the only one of the 4 animal shapes that must be shot at from the offhand position). The course of fire would be 10-rounds. Full bullet strikes on the target would be score as a point. There will be a 1” white center “dot” that would be used to break ties where incomplete bullet strikes would count and would be worth 2-points. Firing time will 12-minutes to shoot as many sighters as you want and still shoot your 10-record rounds, just like in a regular match.

What ALWAYS happens when someone dreams something like this up, there will ALWAYS be someone who says “yes but can I __”. That's OK and I'd entertain trying to answer questions but this game is intended for those of us who have NRA compliant guns that enjoy the BPCR silhouette game but have limited access to a 500-meter range. The gun, loads, allowed shooting times and shooting position are what the competitor would be using in a regular match. Having said that, by tweaking and expanding and bending the base concept we lose the core aspect of the game.

If the response is large enough, we'll try to put something together as a trial season. At the beginning this would be a one-match thing. Strong interest might lead us into doing it as a seasonal (4-times a year) event in subsequent years.

Tom

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nimrod posted this 23 January 2013

I might be interested I also have a couple of guys that are going to shoot with us during the CBA matches that we run at Pioneer, they also shoot a lot of BPCR so that might just be right down their alley. I would choose a reduced turkey target myself as it's a tough target at it's normal range just scale it down to be appropriate at 200 yards.

The 25 ring target would make for a good one if you want to shoot at a bull. There is also some people shooting at the TQ4 of the Western Schuetzen forums they are also allowing muzzleloaders but probably using rests and more time. This is at 200 yards too and I think that it is a monthly shoot just turn in scores bragging rights only.

Just suggestions.

Richard

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PETE posted this 23 January 2013

Tom,

Sounds interesting.

By 3/4 inch scope do you me the distance overall or just the main tube excluding the two ends like Unertl's .

12 minutes would mean you'd have to work up a load that would shoot “dirty".

You might be cutting out a lot of shooters with only access to a 100 yd. range. 200 yds. would make it more interesting tho.

Only thing I would ask is not to have the target turn in date to early. I've got a Win. High Wall in 38/55 but would have to do all the load work-up for it. Only shot breech seated with it.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 23 January 2013

Hi Pete,

yes it would be dirty but you'd be surprised how much time you'll have between shots to either use a blow tube or wipe. I shot a registered match in Bismarck last summer, the first time I attempted this under the 12-minute time constraint, and never ran out of time. I think the chickens were the one stage where I used the most time, probably because those are shot offhand.

The CBA currently has a single shot Postal that is due 15 Sept. so having the closing date later in the summer would work OK.

Not so sure on the 200-yard only thing. We do have a 200-yd. Military BR and 200-yard Combined Postal that seems to be well attended.

Tom

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nimrod posted this 23 January 2013

Would you allow a spotter-coach like the NRA? One wind flag at the shooters position and one posted on each end of the target line? Just like BPCR. I'm all for eliminating the spotter guys thats one of the main reasons for me to quit the BPCR, I hate having to listen to someone that doesn't have a clue about what he is talking about. It really would make a difference for me no spotters and I'm in. Spotters and I'm out!

An that's my story and I'm stick'in to it!

Richard

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R Dupraz posted this 23 January 2013

Oh h**l Tom, any one can hit a poor chicken at 200 yds from the prone over sticks. Sides, after ten hits with a .45, there would be nothing left but feathers. Be pretty tough to score.

If chickens, what about two with five shots in each?

Or

What about the standard bullseye score military match targets, five shots at 100 and five at 200. with corresponding time limits

Or

Two score targets at 100, five shots each. Then the guys with only a 100 yd range could join in. time limits- same as above.

Iron sight and scope in same class or no?

Or----

Yea, I'd be interested

R. Dupraz

:D:D

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.22-10-45 posted this 23 January 2013

Hello, Tom. Sounds like alot of fun! And I would surely love to use my Remington Mid-Range .40 2 1/2". But the only problem is... I only have access to 100yds in my area! Any possibility of using a reduced for 100yd. range target? I have made up 1/10 scale targets of the old Creedmoor 1000 yd. long-range match targets for .22 rimfire use at 100yds..and that tiny bull looks like a pencil dot!

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PETE posted this 23 January 2013

Tom,

I don't have a quarrel at all with the time or distance. After all I did manage to shoot 25 rds in my 50/90SS without cleaning in 6 1/2 min. at the NCOWS nationals a while back. Hit 25 out of 25 targets set at unknown distances from 75 to 350 yds.

But as I pointed out not to many that would be interested have access to a 200 yd. range. That's my understanding of why the CBA Postals are shot a at 100 so the maximum number of people can shoot them.

You missed my asking about that 3/4” scope idea. A straight 3/4” scope the full length can be gotten. MVA (I think) sells one but were pretty pricey when I bought mine and they are only 6x, or were when I got mine. I'm assuming you mean the main tube will be 3/4” but the “bells” on each end can be whatever like Unertl's and such.

Whichever way you want to go I can play. Just need to know which way that is before saying I'll give it a try.

Pete

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Michael K posted this 23 January 2013

Sounds good. 12 mins, should not be a problem. In a standard NRA BPCR silhouette match shooters are given 7 minutes for their first set/bank of 5 animals. This includes their sighters and 5 shots for score. 5 mins is given for the second set/bank of 5 animals with 5 shots for score. 12 mins all run together produces the same end result.

Shooting dirty.. I use a blow tube, others patch between shots. I feel life is too short to deal with adding more more motions during a match. Shoot, blow, reload, repeat.

Michael.

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mike morrison posted this 24 January 2013

never shot a postal. I would give this a go. m

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Tom Acheson posted this 24 January 2013

This is cut and pasted from the NRA rules regarding scopes: No length or power limitation on the scope. Scope tube
body to be 3/4” or less in diameter and any ocular or
objective lenses, adjusting or assembly rings to be less than 1” in diameter.

(c) No Internal scope adjustments for windage or elevation.

(d) Mounts are to be of the traditional style of the period, and contain the windage and elevation adjustments for the scope in either, or both, the front or rear mounts. No click adjustments in the mount. Either dove tail mounting or scope block mounting is allowed.

Original scope mounts of either the Cataract or Malcom style or variations thereof, or replicas or derivatives of either style, are allowed provided the replica or derivative conforms to the criteria of paragraph (d) above.

No spotters. The beauty of the Postal is you can get off on your own for some “quiet” time. Of course you can have a spotting scope on the ground next to you while shooting. But FWIW, many IHMSA spotters use a laser pointer aimed at a spotting board next to the shooter to indicate hit placement and there is no verbal stuff.

To keep this “silhouette” based, the target will be the shape of one of the traditional silhouette animals.

Separate scope and iron sight categories.

I'm giving the (2) targets idea some thought. While some of us might turn in an unscoreable target due to our terrific eyesight, that might not be the case for most.

Forgot about the NRA wind flag rule...yep, you can have (1) right next to you on the firing line. If the club has large “community” always-in-place flags down range, they can stay.

Distance...I still favor the 200-yard outlook but we'll see how many respond saying they can only get onto a 100-yard range. See my second post above about the CBA already having 200-yard only events. So what should we do with the guys that can only get onto a 50-yard range? HA!

Having fun!

Tom

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nimrod posted this 24 January 2013

Allrighty! I'm liking it I still think that a reduced trukey would the way to go maybe have a paper chicken for some offhand shooting. Everybody meeds some offhand practice.

Richard

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tturner53 posted this 24 January 2013

Yes, I'd be interested enough to give it a go, if I had a gun that qualifies. Closest thing I have is a H&R 45-70 single shot. Fly, no fly? Seems I remember reading something about the H&R 45-70 replicating a Wesson & Harrington original. I'd love to have a nice buffalo gun but may not get one this year. I'm sure there's a lot of H&Rs out there. If this is contrary to the spirit of the match I'm fine with that, no problem. If the H&R is a go I'm in.

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Tom Acheson posted this 24 January 2013

I can't say about an H&R. Here is the balance of the NRA gun rule commentary: Stevens Tip-up, Stevens No. 44, Wesson Falling Block, Wesson (hinged barrel), Whitney Phoenix, Whitney Rolling Block, Winchester 1885, and Wurfflein. While the following single shot actions may not conform to the exact criteria of Rule 3.4, they are allowed because they conform to the spirit of the competition in form and function, provided the firearms conform to all other configurations of Rule 3.4: Browning Model 1878, Browning Model 1885, C. Sharps '75, Falling Block Works, Stevens 44 1/2 and Wickliff '76. Replicas other than exact reproductions of pre-1896 Black Powder actions as described above and shooting equipment as described herein, must be passed by the Silhouette Committee with the advice of the Black Powder Committee. It shall be the competitor's responsibility to provide any documentation which may be required to establish that all Black Powder Cartridge Rifle equipment conforms to these rules.

FWIW

Tom

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PETE posted this 24 January 2013

Tom,

This is getting tougher all the time.

I think the big hang-up for most will be the scope requirement. Not the diam. but the mounts. I've got a Win. and Fecker that meet the diam. requirement but they have click adjustable Unertl mounts.

So guess it's the MVA and Win. High Wall for me.

You going to post the rules in concrete so guys know what they need to do?

Pete

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tturner53 posted this 24 January 2013

OK. I'll see what happens. I'm seriously considering selling my EBR (which I don't use)to finance a BPCR. It seems every year I go shopping for a new rifle to shoot in a CBA postal match. I can hardly bear the strain. Currently looking at Lyman Chiappa mini Sharps in 38-55. 6 pounds! Could be a good backwoods loafer's gun, but so far after searching the web the bore/groove dimensions seem to be a state secret, just “Lyman specified". Anyway, this match idea sounds like a winner to me. One way or another I'm in.

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Tom Acheson posted this 24 January 2013

Right now I'm on a fishing expedition....trying to evaluate the interest. But yes, once the excitement dies down, there will be fixed” rules.

Stay tuned...

Tom

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nimrod posted this 24 January 2013

Since we are still on a fishing expedition I think that a lot of the NRA rules are somewhat “UPPITY” too restrictive or what have you. I do think that the blackpowder cartridge case should be strictly enforced. I never did understand why only Pyrodex would be allowed while none of the other artifical powders could be used? Politics somewhere or money. Stick to blackpowder..... As for actions there were a lot of actions in use during that time that the NRA will not allow. To my thinking and to allow more people to enjoy the sport allow the tip up actions, the striker type actions as long as they are in the spirit of the match using two piece wood stocks in the Hunting configuration, NO TARGET STOCKS. And keep the traditional style sights and scopes, no click adjustments.

MY thoughts anyway.

Richard

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MKastning posted this 24 January 2013

Tom tossed me a note to look into this, and I have to say there is a lot mroe interest on this thread than I thought there would be! I should spend more time on the forum, for sure!

The BPCR game is way different than anything that I shoot, but I would be happy to run this through as a trial match this year, complete with the match results posted in The Fouling Shot.

Let's keep discussing the ideas for the “rules” and give it a shot. I “think” I am now just about organized enough to be dangerous in this Postal position, and ready to take on more matches.

Mike

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Michael K posted this 25 January 2013

While the issue of what is allowed or not as been raised, let us keep in mind the spirit of NRA BPCR rules. At risk of getting on a soap box, when I first started shooting IHMSA pistol silhouette back in the early 80's 3 of the 4 catagories were geared around the production gun, straight from the box, factory sights, 4lbs max, 10” barrel max, nothing after market, except for readily avialable cataloged grips and a safe trigger job. As the years passed the true production gun gradually became less and less production. The continual postituting of the rules was one of the reasons for leaving the sport, selling off my pistols and getting into BPCR.
The NRA rules are intended to keep things in the spirit of shooting the traditional BPCR. How many people would want to go to a square dance and see someone show up wearing spandex track suit?

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GWarden posted this 25 January 2013

I like the idea of the postal match, but why not make it more inclusive to get more shooters; rather than being exclusive to eliminate shooters. On the WSU forum there has been a BP slug gun/ postal match. It is shot at 200 and 100 yds from the bench. Was no wt limit and any sight. You can go to the WSU and find the rules. Don' t we want to get as many shooters as possible. I shot in this on two different years, it definitely gets one to find out the potential of their rifle. Why not include muzzle loading round ball at 50 and or 100yds. There are lots of those BP muzzle loading bench guns out there, include them in a match. Lots of possibilities for lots of BP shooters. Bob Iowa

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