Leading with Lyman #2 alloy

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  • Last Post 10 February 2013
Revolverman posted this 09 February 2013

I've always used wheelweights for moderate loads in 45 colt, .357 and low velocity (1,800 fps) .308 loads and never had any leading problems. I bought a Springfield HD in 45 ACP and made up some Lyman #2 alloy. Used the 200 gr SWC mould, sized them to.451 and used 4 grains of Bullseye. Getting leading. I made up some loads for the .45 Colt and .357 with this same alloy and getting some leading in those also. Would sizing the ACP bullets to .452 help? I'm assuming the Lyman #2 alloy is quite a bit harder than my old wheelweight bullets and the bullets might not be filling the bore. How about using Walter's Wads? I saw some of those for sale (.451) but have never used them....any suggestions? And how do I go about using the wads?

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R Dupraz posted this 09 February 2013

Revolverman:

Not enough info.

  1. gas check or PB?
  2. How do you know that your new Alloy is Lyman #2? ie. hardness.
  3. What is the as cast diam. of the bullets from the new new alloy?
  4. How do you know that your sizing die is sizing to the diam. that it's supposed to?
  5. What kind of lead did you use to make your #2 clone from?
  6. How much is “some leading” and where?

I have shot lots of .357, .45 colt, .45 ACP, .44's and 32's with cast in several different guns over the yrs. Everything from scrap to wheel weights to type metal and have not had any leading problems. There should not be any need for wads, even with PB bullets. I suspect that there is something else going on here.

I have had a Saeco lube-sizer 50+ yrs. and have yet to see one of their dies that is the size that it's supposed to be. All of mine have had to be opened up a bit in order to make the sized bullets fit the throats.

Different alloys and heat ranges often cast different size bullets.

Also,I have found that sometimes using unkown scrap alloy can cause leading when otherwise it is not present and everything else is the same. This has happened in some rifles. And it is sometimes typical to get some lead flecks that come out on a cleaning patch but don't effect the accuracy.

Generally the old accepted cast rules of bullet fit and correct hardness for the powder charge apply in handguns but you have to know all the dimensions.

RD

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7215>Revolverman:

Suddenly getting leading with a new batch of alloy shouldn't be puzzling at all if you go back to the basics. Oh , I bet it is aggravating, but still check the basics.

Clean the firearms that are leading free of lead. Grease the bores and slug the barrels. There are many videos on YouTube about slugging a bore. Watch a half dozen of them and you will get a good idea of how to slug a bore. An Alternative is chamber/throat/bore castings, an inexpensive alloy for that is available from Roto Metals.

Use a great micrometer like a Starrett accurate to .0005” to measure your slugs or throat/bore castings. Dial gauges or digitals are only accurate to +-.001” and insufficient for this job. Your measurements will give a comparison diameter for your bullets that are leading your firearms. Bullets should be larger than your groove to groove slugged bore diameter by .002-.004” and the bullets should be the largest diameter that will function and chamber in your firearms.

You question your sizing die. Your slugging measure measurements, and your cast bullet measurements and your sized bullet measurements and trial fitting your loaded ammo in your firearms will answer that for you better than anybody else can.

Changing to a new alloy batch usually involves modifying your pot temp and/or your casting cadence to maximize your bullet mold fill-out and bullet diameter. You may well be able to make some changes in methods and get a fine bullet fit.

Your new bullets are small, the only other thing that causes leading is a very rough bore. When your bullets fit, even lube becomes a very small factor and any decent lube will be fine. So don't question your lube being a factor...it is your bullet fit. Also, wads will not compensate for undersize bullets.

Gary

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Revolverman posted this 09 February 2013

  1. Bullets in 45 Colt, 357 and 45 ACP are all PB. Haven't fired any of the 308 with the new alloy---thats a gas check.
  2. I don't have any of the as dropped ACP bullets but I just miked some of the others 45 Colt---supposedly sized to 452---miked 451. 357 as dropped. supposed to be 358--miked 357 308---supposedly sized to 309---miked 308

all sizers are lyman, Micrometer is a plastic Lyman variety.

I have the recipe from Lyman reloading manual on making #2. I use Linotype, lead (mostly from old water pipe) and 63/37 bar solder. All metals weighed...careful on fluxing also.

30-35 shots produces leading from end of chamber up about 2 inches on one side of barrel in all three pistols....not severe but an annoyance I haven't had before with the wheelweights.. I don't know whether the bullet is casting “under diameter” or it isn't as hard as it should be. Next investment is going to be a hardness tester.

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7215>Revolverman:

 Your sizing dies are undersize from specification. and you likely need larger bullets than the specified sizes anyway.  I hone all my bullet sizing dies to drop the size I want with my alloy bullets for my firearms.

My .308 rifle  likes bullets sized to .3105” for a good fit as an example, smaller bullets will lead my rifle. My .458 WM likes bullets  .460-461", My .500 S&W likes cast bullets .502", My .223 likes bullets .2255", These are not standard sizes, I hone the bullet sizing dies to fit my needs.

Your alloy is not likely an issue, but your bullet fit is. However, If you are concerned about your alloy hardness and don't have an alloy hardness test kit, I can help free of charge. Send me 5 bullets that are ready to load and I will test hardness with the Lee Hardness Test Kit then PM you the results. PM me if you are interested.

You have increased your bullet hardness from wheelweight to an approximation of #2 alloy. An increase in bullet hardness requires better fit of bullets. Your sizing is close or leading would be worse. Your undersize bullets allow gas jetting and leading for a short distance before ballistic pressure is obturating your bullets to fill the bore. You need bigger bullets or go back to the softer alloy.

Gary

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R Dupraz posted this 09 February 2013

Rifles- bullets must fit the throat, not the bore.

SA pistols- same as above.

Revolvers - bullets must fit each chamber throat in the cylinder. Check the bore to insure that it isn't larger than the above. Lots of info in the archives of this forum. Just search.

I have had a simple Mitutoyo mic that measures out to three places for yrs and it works just fine. There are simple methods of meaasureing throats in revolvers and rifles, to include the bores without chamber casting etc,using common tools. They can be found by just doing a search on this forum.

RD

No use making this more complicated than it needs to be.

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7095>R Dupraz:

Glad you are happy with your Multitoyo, however unless your manual says it is accurate to 3 decimals it is not and only indicates to 3 decimals with an accuracy of only  +-.001 in the 3 decimal reading,  unless specified differently.

This is fine for comparative  measurements but will not define bore slug  or bullet diameter any closer than +-.001. More accurate measurement is needed for bullet fit and +-.0005” is the industry standard.

Used Starrett micrometers accurate to .0005” are readily available on Ebay starting at about $15.

This is the model I use and only $15: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Starrett-1-Micrometer-436-1in-/111010506841?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d8bde859>http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Starrett-1-Micrometer-436-1in-/111010506841?pt=LHDefaultDomain0&hash=item19d8bde859

Mine looks older and more beat up, Mine: This model has a drag slip secondary knob and is designed for measuring hard surfaces, so it must be used with a gentile touch for lead alloys Gary

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R Dupraz posted this 09 February 2013

                                                                                                              As I have previously said, “It works just fine” The target never lies

200 & 100 yds. 7.62mm/.308 K-98 Mauser, Military CBA match Hawkeye Rifle Pistol club. RCBS 30-180-SP fitted with my MITUTOYE. Low shots at 100 yds were sight adjustment

Good enough for me!

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7095>R Dupraz: As previously agreed,

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R Dupraz posted this 09 February 2013

Gary:

My rifle is an old Israelie surplus K-98. What's your .223 and what will it do at 200. The above targets were fired at a certified CBA military match. Where did you fire yours?

RD

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Chargar posted this 09 February 2013

Revolver man...I have fired many thousands of bullets cast from no. 2. It is my go to alloy for riles lads, but in general is harder than I like fore handguns unless it is top end magnum loads.

I have fired about a quarter million rounds od cast 45 cap and have always used .452.

My best guess is your lube has rolled snake eyes and/or the alloy is to hard for your mild pressures.

I won't get into the micrometer debate , but I have been using starett products for well over 50 years with complete satisfaction.

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onondaga posted this 09 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7095>R Dupraz: Rifle is NEF Utra Varmint with a polished bore in .223 and and target was bench fired at my club range. This is average performance for the rifle on a calm day and is consistent 1 MOA @100 yards if I mind the weather. I don't shoot much at 200, only hunting, the bullets are 60 grains and very susceptible to wind drift. Best I've done with it at 200 is woodchucks and that appears to be the limit with the rifle. I get about 80-90% kills at 200 but I like the challenge.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 10 February 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7215>Revolverman:

There needn't be a debate on micrometer accuracy. Many shooters here use none and check the fit of their bullets by feel.

You can check feel by finger chambering rounds. This works for me if I can definitely feel that a lightly tumble lubed bullet has a definite sliding feel with some drag into the chamber and an un-lubed bullet from the same sizing die doesn't have any drag. This shows that your bullet fit is within the thickness of the coating of tumble lube, less than .001” to touching the chamber throat.

This is a good way to check fit but takes a gentile touch and definite concentration on the job at hand..

Gary

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R Dupraz posted this 10 February 2013

There is an easy and simple way to check bullet fit in the throat of a rifle without a mic. And is a lot more accurate than trying to feel it.

First, find the max OAL of a loaded round with the intended bullet that will chamber. Then seat a bullet in a sized unprimed uncharged case within the max OAL that you have already found.

Then, coat the entire subject bullet with a permanent black magic marker. Chamber the round and extract. Look where the scuff marks from the throat/lead are. The presence or the absence of scuff marks on the driving bands and rifling lead marks on the nose will tell you which way you need to go.

Repeat with either larger or smaller sized bullets untill the round can be chambered easily and the scuff marks are evenly distributed on the driving bands and nose.

I also use this method to fine tune the seating depth.

RD

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