I have a chance to get a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .44 Special.
Here's the problem as we all know. Can't get dies or brass from anyone.
Looking over my inventory I have an older Bonanza die set that's marked .44 S&W Special / .44 Mag. Also have a small quantity of .44 Mag. brass. I ASSUME I can use the Mag. brass in the .44 Special. Maybe trim it a bit or whatever.
Any opinions as to whether I can do this or not?
Pete
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Your des will work and you can trim the magnum cases to special length and they will work as well.
The magnum case is nothing more than the special case made 0.100 longer. That is the amount you will need to trim off.
Happy trimming!
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.44 Mag. is 1.285 .44 Spl. is 1.160
Difference = .125
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Thanks Chargar. Was hoping that was the case. I'll see if I can rough trim the cases in the lathe and then finish them up in the hand trimmer.
Also have a small batch of Lyman 42798 bullets that I use in my .44/40 SAA. Might be a little small at .428-.429 (Lino). If the luck continues I'll have another slightly bigger mold in stock.
Anyone have any loads that work well for them? This is a new caliber for me, but one I've always wanted to try out.
Pete
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In my Ruger I shoot Saeco #430 or #441 cast 10 BHN with 5 grains of Bullseye..
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Load that works for me is a variation of one of Skeeter Skeltons. 6.5 to 7.5gr Unique under 429421. Adjust powder amount to shoot to point of aim. Four different S&W's agree. Hard to go wrong with a .44 Spl. I have shot both the new Rugers. Standard and Bisley. Standard is prettier but the Bisley feels so much better. Been playing with the 245gr round nose too but nothing really staggering yet. Just got some Trail Boss powder so we will see how that works. :fire:
Ed, you look so dignified holding your Garand (the type rifle MEN shoot)and sporting your shooting coat. Even though I do not shoot compitition any more may I copy your lead and post my pic like yours? Damn I miss it so. But a creeking body makes me at best an RO now. :kilroy:
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Cabelas has Rem. 44 special brass in stock now at $30.99/100
RD
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That is what I get when I rely on 50 year old memory.
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pete .. i think i have a few 44 mag brass somewhere ...email me if interested ... trade? i need 45-70 y 30-06 brass ... other ?
add: i think i have some 427 8 9 molds also ... have to find them ... lets see ...
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Made the trade for the New Model Blackhawk 44 Special this afternoon and been busy setting up the lathe and drill press to convert some 44 Mag. cases over.
Ed,
Will have to wait awhile to get those SAECO molds you mention. Little pricey for my blood at this time. Checked the cylinder fit of the bullet I have and needs just a little effort to push them thru.
RD,
Thanks for the tip that Cabelas has 44 Special brass in stock. 200 on the way.
Ken,
Have a 100 44 Mag. cases so will only have to convert a few to tide me over. Thanks for the offer tho.
Pete
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You will enjoy your 44 Special. I have owned a dozen or more over the years and here is the only one I have managed to hang on to. A 1933 Smith and Wesson Hand Ejector that has been over the bench at Mico Sight. It has their sights, checkered trigger and hammer, plus a nicely checkered backstrap. A very nice shooting revolver.
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:coffee
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Chargar & Hunters pistol,
As you say, I'm really going to enjoy this and the suggestions of powder and charges to use will give me a good place to start.
Been waiting many years to get this 44 Special but the people around here never get rid of them and it seems I'm always a day late when I hear of one for sale. Not this time tho. :)
Thanks to all you helped.
Pete
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Pete...I don't run the above Smith and Wesson with hot loads. I stick to the factory (800 fps) specs and use Bulleye powder.
I have in the past used the old Skelton/Keith load of 7.5/Unique over a Keith SWC bullet with good results, in other handguns.
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That is what I get when I rely on 50 year old memory.
Don't feel bad, I had to look it up 8-)
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Chargar,
Plan on first getting up a target load for an indoor revolver league we have every Winter Not sure if the bullet I've will do the trick. Cast some up out of eggs scrap and they should just make it. They don't drop thru but the don't take a lot of pressure to do so. Cast of Lino will work OK. Might be. Little to tight.
So. I figure to start low with the range scrap bullets and work up looking for signs of Leading. If range scrap doesn't work well then I'll try Lino. Then I'll work up something for outdoors 25 & 50 yds.
Pete
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Pete...To each their own, but I have never been happy with linotype unless pushed as full snort magnum velocities.
Back about 1965, I was living not to far from a refinery that produced lintotype and could be bought quite cheap from them. I thought harder was better in those days. I cast some 38 Special wadcutters from this metal and ended up with the worse headed cylinder throats I had ever seen and lino leading is very hard to clean out.
That was an ah-ha moment for me...and a lesson learned and not to be repeated. Since those days, I use softer alloys for lower loads and expand the case mouths to about exact bullet diameter or .001 under size so I won't damage the bullets in seating. If you can't turn the bullet in the case neck by hand, it is tight enough and a decent crimp will be all that is needed.
I do lots of things in ways not currently in vogue these days, but I do what has proven to work for me.
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Chargar,
Your last sentence says it all. If it works for you then don't worry what all the experts say.
My only use of Lino was in the only mold I have it casts a bullet that I feel is the best fit in the cylinder throats. The range lead bullets MIGHT be right on the edge of a good fit. I like the range Lead because I've got a 1000 pds. of it. :) It brinells out at 11-12 and I use it for all my handgun shooting with no Leading.
I've never had a problem with Lino either but my supply is running short so I only use or for specific applications. Full snort as you say. :)
Pete
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Your last sentence says it all. If it works for you then don't worry what all the experts say.
Truer words have never been spoken
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:coffee
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Factory 246-grain LRN, old Remington stuff from 1960s, gave 747 fps, with Sd of 21 fps, avg. of five 6-shot groups at 25 yards 2” from S&W 3rd Model HE with 5” barrel that I used to have and sold some years ago.
5 grains of Bullseye with Saeco #430 cast 11 BHN in .44 Spl., same revolver gave 710 fps, 20 Sd and also 2” groups at 25 yards.
Using same load in .44 Mag. Ruger RBH drops velcity to 690 fps and Sd increased to 36, but grouping OK 2” at 50 ft., opens to 2-1/2” at 25 yds., strung vertically 6” at 50 yds.
Best in the RBH was to load #441 or #430, both shoot well, as-cast and unsized at .433” in .44 Magnum brass, increase charge to 7.2 Bullseye for 1017 fps, 11Sd, 1-1/2” groups at 25 yards over long series. Beats anything I ever tried in the .44 Special 3rd Model Hand Ejector, and why I sold that revolver to a collector. Same .44 Mag. load gives 1233 fps, Sd10 and averages 3 inch groups at 100 yards over a long series from my scoped H&R Handi Rifle using soft scrap aloy. What's not to like?
.44 Special ammo from Handi Rifle is less accurate, but acceptable, see photo below, is typical.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I have been shooting 30:1 lead:tin cast bullets at start loads of 750-850fps
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Thought maybe some of you would like a little update on my Ruger New Model Blackhawk.
Both targets shot with the only .44 cal. mold I have. A Lyman 42798. Not very round and I mentioned in earlier posts when cast of Range Scrap is barely acceptable. Cast of Lino it would be ok except for the out of roundness. The target on the left was shot with bullets cast of Lino. The out shot was called as I knew as the gun went off I didn't have a proper grip. The target on the right was shot with bullets cast out of Range scrap. Both groups are 10 shots. The Lino group without the outlier is 1 3/16” and the other is 2 3/16". Both groups shot two handed at 50 ft. with just the left hand resting on the bench.
 brass. I'll know more in a day or two when the new 44 brass shows up.</p>
<p><img src =)
Comments?
Pete
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My cases fired with 5.0 of Bullseye are not that smoky. What powder are you using? I think also with the lighter bullet you don't have enough shot-start resistance to get a clean burn. Try using a heavier 250-270-grain bullet if you have one. If buying a mold Saeco #441 has worked well for me in every .44 I have tried it in. 1:30 alloy is perfect for mild loads to 800 fps.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
The powder I am using is Alliant Bullseye. The fired cases you see were loaded with 5 grs. of it. This is the max. load the Lyman cast bullet handbook recommends. I suppose I could go quite a bit higher since the Ruger should be able to take it. But at this point and with the only bullet I have I'm just looking for something to use indoors at 50 ft.
I thot of the crimp angle so there is a medium heavy crimp on them.
I know the bullet at 215 & 210, (range scrap - Lino respectively) is a little light but it's the only mold I've got in that caliber. Works real well in the 3rd generation Colt SAA I've got. Checked around to all the wholesalers and you basically can't get a mold of any persuasion. Some won't even take back orders. Midway at the first part of May is about the soonest.
Pete
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Having never done so, this morning I measured the case thickness of 44 Magnum cases and 44 Special cases to see if they magnum cases were thicker. I have a good Starrett tubing micrometer to do the measurement.
I measured Federal, Remington and some old Western magnum cases mouth and then down enough to the 44 Special lengths. These case thickness is .012 to .013 as the cases are rotated. I was surprised at the consistency of the various makes and vintages of cases.
The only 44 Special cases I have are some W-W and they also measured .012 to .013.
So at least on the cases I have here in my shop there is no difference in case thickness on the top half of the case between 44 Special and 44 Magnum.
I did not measure the bottom half of the case, where they get thicker. But the cases are the same where the bullet is seated. At least that is what things are in the cases in my shop
Therefore...I don't think your smokey cases are the result of using shortened magnum brass. I would put my money on Ed's diagnosis being accurate.
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I hit the send button twice and have no figured out how to delete a post here.
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Chargar,
Don't worry about double messages. :) I've done it as well as most I suspect.
Just got the 44 cases in the mail this morning and your right. Both the Special & magnum cases mike the same. Takes care of my idea.
Think I need to find a cleaner powder that develops a bit more pressure so I can get what I've got to shoot a little cleaner. The accuracy I'm getting shoots better than I can at 50 ft. Just don't like the idea of having to using steel wool to clean the cases up.
Got a backorder in with Midway for a 250 gr. bullet which supposedly will get here about the first part of May.
Pete
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Pete,
You will know after you shoot the 44 Special brass -- that is if you use the same load that smoked the brass in the pictures but there is one other possibility. '
The 44 mag cases maybe harder/stronger (higher yield strength). I don't have a clue if this is true but for the higher pressure mag it could be.
John
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John,
Thought of your idea to and will see how it goes tomorrow altho will be working with Unique instead of Bullseye. Should give about the same results. Probably should try the new Red Dot too as the ad on the can says it's cleaner burning. Have wondered if that meant fewer unburned powder in the bore or less blowback on the cases.
Pete
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Pete, I thought I would photograph some of my 44 spl brass after seeing your post. I have been shooting start loads using IMR PB, SR7625, and Blue Dot in my Ruger NMBH 44Spl. These were all using bullets cast of 30:1 lead : tin, NOE 429421 mold, approx 245gr LSWC, sized to .431, lubed w/ LBT Blue Soft. I used RCBS 44 Russian/44spl cowboy dies with a moderate crimp done as a separate operation with a Redding Profile Crimp die. I did not think to keep the brass sorted , I was keeping my targets sorted. So I just grabbed a handful and took one with flash and one without.
These all seem to be a little cleaner than yours. How much crimp are you using. Maybe between that, and my bullet weight is helping ignition. I did shoot some loaded with HERCO early on which usually shoots pretty dirty , and they should be in the same bag, but I don't see any pieces that are any different than these.
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Offhand,
Yeah. Your cases look a lot better than mine. That's for sure. :)
I'm using what I would consider a moderate crimp. You can definitely feel the crimp going in when it's applied but it's not as heavy as some I've used.
I think I'm agreeing with you and others that I'm going to need a heavier bullet than the 210-215 gr. that I've got. But that'll be another month before that shows up. Will keep the powders your using in mind as I have the three you listed.
Pete
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i doubt that a heavier crimp will help ... because the brass expands before the bullet moves
if you feel lucky, you might consider a filler ( material ...dacron. toilet paper , cotton ball, shot damper ... etc . ) ...
my favorite 44 bullet was the lee 300 gr ... that should give good resistance ( g ) .. i think i still have a dozen or so someplace if you want to try some of those bad boys ...
ken
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Ken,
I would tend to agree with you that heavy crimps probably do very little to increase resistance at startup. I think they do some tho. The main reason for putting crimps on is to prevent the bullet from moving forward in the cylinder/chamber.
With that in mind it would seem that the heavier the bullet the more crimp you would need to keep those bullets from moving.
As for your Bad Boy Bullets...... I think I'll pass on them. :) The 250 grainer I've got coming will be /good enuf for me and if my current bullet I'm using was a little bigger that would be all I'd need.
Anybody know anyone who opens up moulds?
Pete
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You could just order a mold cut to your specs. from Tom at Accurate Molds in Salt Lake. I can attest to his quality.
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Sharps,
Yep. Could do that. But got a mold I want coming from Midway. Have 70 some molds as it is so don't need any more if I can help it. When I get the one from Midway then I'd like to get my current one opened up .002 or so. It's really an ideal bullet for shooting indoors. It was originally bought for a first Gen. .44/40 Colt SAA back in the .60's and also works real well in my 3rd Gen. .44/40 SAA along with a repro Henry in .44/40. If I have the current mold opened up .002 then with the .429 & .430 sizing dies I can cover all my .44 cal.'s without the expense of buying another mold.
So.... Again. Anyone know who does a decent job of opening molds up?
Pete
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How many times had that trimmed 44 mag. brass been reloaded? Might they benefit from annealing?
Duke
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Duke,
That would be impossible to say. The last time it was used was back in the early 60's. I'm sure several times at least tho.
But I received the new .44 Special brass from Cabela's and it shows the same amount of discoloring as the mag. brass does.
Considering the light wgt. of the bullet I have It's probably going to take a 250 grain bullet to cut the discoloring down to something similar to the picture above from offhand.
Pete
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