Bore conditioning to preventing leading ???

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  • Last Post 26 March 2013
rmrix posted this 23 March 2013

Or: Snowy Colorado day, nice fire going and a Guinness make for a question. Where to begin? If, Shooting cast in a barrel that has been cleaned down to the steel with some kind of solvent that pulls lead and not pre ”€œ treating the barrel does not seem like a good idea.  That first lead bullet down the dry bore or maybe worse, sliding down a barrel with what remains of the Kroll, Turpentine, Kerosene, Ed's Red or maybe odorless Mineral Spirits must work pull the lead off your bullet the same way as it pulls lead off the barrels interior.     Or does it? The subject of barrel pre-treatments has been covered here and there and I have experimented doing this and that over the years but I still have not drawn any firm conclusions. If I have one opinion, the outcome is not linked to bullet alloy within the range of pressures and velocities we commonly shoot plain base bullets in matches.     Lube? Yes and no. I am thinking that starting correctly from a clean barrel has everything to do with the performance. Along the lines of pre-firing, what have your experiences been? 

Keep warm, Michael Rix

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onondaga posted this 23 March 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=4154>rmrix:

Do you really think there is something that controls leading better than bullet fit?  How could this have passed you buy on the Cast Bullet Association Forum since you joined  Wed Apr 28th, 2010?

Slug your bore, do a chamber/throat casting and learn what to do with these.

If you are just trying to be humorous, I apologize. If you really have no clue, I'd be happy to help.

What Caliber? What Action? what bore condition? What is the purpose of the loads?

Gary

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rmrix posted this 23 March 2013

Gary writes: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=4154>rmrix:

Do you really think there is something that controls leading better than bullet fit?  How could this have passed you buy on the Cast Bullet Association Forum since you joined  Wed Apr 28th, 2010?Not that it maters but was a member of CBA in1983.

Slug your bore, do a chamber/throat casting and learn what to do with these. The rifles, chambers, reamers and I are old friends.

If you are just trying to be humorous, I apologize. If you really have no clue, I'd be happy to help. Thank you for the very honest offer of help but I do not want to clutter this conversation with the below but want to talk about others general experiences.

What Caliber? What Action? what bore condition? What is the purpose of the loads?

The bullet fit is not the wild card. I am hoping to keep the scope of this post to bore pretreatments. But a sincere thanks for responding. If you have a point of view on conditioning the barrel, that would interest me. Michael Rix

Gary

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.22-10-45 posted this 23 March 2013

Years ago, I bought some..it's been so long I can't even remember the name! It was a moly suspended in a carrier..supposed to run patches with it thru a hundred times or so to condition bore. I did try it, but really saw no improvement..or advantage. It does make a good mould-prep though!..not in cavities but between cutter plate & mould top & on pins. The main thing I thought was when do you know to re-apply? Thats about the time I started using NECO moly coating on some of my cast rifle bullets..still do. I remember reading in Phill Sharpes Complete Guide To Handloading, when using the IPCO graphite or home-made variety wax wads..it was recommended to patch bore with same wad material on patch before firing first shot.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2013

Michael,

In 2007 I did not clean my match 03 Springfield for the whole season. At the end of the day, one dry patch down the bore. Before shooting again, one patch with a little of the Grey #24 lube I was using rubbed into the patch and once down the bore. Two or three times during the year, several thousand rounds, fouling would build up in the throat and would require a nylon brush with Ed's Red a stroke or two, one dry patch, one lube patch, then keep shooting. The purpose of all of this was to stop having to shoot 8 or 10 shots at the beginning of a match to warm and lube the barrel. With this technique the second shot was in the group.

I am not shooting as much now, but clean more often because the rifle is in storage longer. I only clean down to bare metal when I get a new rifle. Once I start shooting lubed bullets, a damp patch of Ed's Red will last over winter here in the desert for bore protection. When I want to shoot it, one dry patch then one patch with lube and I am ready to fire.

FWIW,

Ric

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onondaga posted this 24 March 2013

Bore conditioning depends on what condition the bore is in, A little rust, a little pitting, a little copper, a little crown damage?

First if there is crown damage, I'll fix it or get it done. The rest of the problems, I treat all at once and get the bore in the best condition I can get it for cast bullets. I've posted my bore polishing method in the accuracy forum here and refer readers to it frequently. It does work well and the 3 pages of comments are worth reading too. I do this with all my rifles once when new or even if they are old when I get them to optimize what I have for cast bullets.. Link:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8364&forum_id=63>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

This procedure gets out any copper if there is any and will smooth light pitting or rough bores to get them to like cast bullets better. The polishing will also take a below average factory new bore finish and make it match grade slick with a finely polished surface that cast bullets like. In every case the polishing does make bore cleaning in the future a lot less work due to the fine finish.

At the range, I pull a dry Hoppe's Bore Snake through once every 5 rounds and before season storage I clean with Hoppe's Elite then wax the bore with  Johnson's Paste Wax.

Gary

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99 Strajght posted this 24 March 2013

I have been using automatic transmission fluid for about 20 years now. After shooting I wipe the bore with a coat. Then before I shoot the next time I wipe the bore with a dry patch. I don't know how much it helps but I can not think of a rifle or pistol barrel that I have with any leading. I might clean once a year and even then I don't have any leading. I clean just because I think I should. It works for me.

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Ed Harris posted this 24 March 2013

I have found that with loads which work, at moderate velocities, I treat my cast bullet guns like a .22 match rifle. I don't clean to bare metal as long as the gun is shooting well.

If there is a problem, I clean with a brush and Ed's Red, and before shooting swab the bore with a wet patch, then a dry patch, dry the chamber and shoot. This leaves a bit of residual lube in the bore from the ER which prevents the first shot from fouling a clean-dry barrel.

When I am done for the day I run one wet patch of Ed's Red through the bore and leave it wet. When I go to the range I run one dry patch down the bore, dry the chamber and shoot.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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pat i. posted this 24 March 2013

When I do clean my guns I do it like Ed does. Don't clean much though and always shoot a few fouling shots before I get serious.

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delmarskid1 posted this 24 March 2013

My bore conditioning consists of shooting cast bullets down a clean bore until it gets too dirty to shoot well. I only seem to get leading with magnum plain based hand gun loads. Most bore cleaners lift or penetrate under lead fouling. They don't really dissolve it. I don't think having some of this cleaner left in the barrel will cause leading.

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rmrix posted this 24 March 2013

Rich, (Pat, Ed 22-10-45 and all), agreed. Once the rifle is running well I do not mess with the cleaning unless match shooting conditions or routine change require making cleaning necessary.    And that is the focus of my question.

I reread my first post and see I butchered it during an edit before I even got it posted. I was not really very clear.

Sometimes when a question is asked the reader makes an erroneous assumption that the writer is having a problem he knows nothing about solving. In this case I did not frame the question well enough for anyone to think otherwise. Sorry.   Yesterday I got to thinking about a leaded barrel and how I was not having that issue much anymore.

I was thinking how I used to clean after a match.

How I used to clean with various products including Ed's Red (you guys might have heard of it) that was good at pulling lead out of a barrel.

The reason I was somewhat obsessed by that was, lead galled me.  Well, really it galled my barrel. No, really lead galled lead on the walls inside my barrel.  The idea being some lead attracts more lead and before you know it, it's taking over!

BTW, I have found that Ed's Red does a good job of pulling lead from a barrel.

Long, long ago, for no reason except it seemed like a good idea, I would leave lead remover in my barrel until the next time I would shoot.  I can be a slow learner but I found out that shooting a barrel in this state without removing all of the solvent might be the start of a gall darn leading problem. Removing the solvent with something like Windex and then ETOH (alcohol) and shooting the first shot in a naked bore might lead to the same.

So.   Hummm?   If I were to use something to precondition the barrel, what might work?  What might be best?  That is, instead of just loading up that first round into a very clean but unprotected barrel, maybe I could ease the situation some by getting some slippery stuff in there  ”¦”¦applied by hand or some other way, it does not matter.

I have my own experiences. These days, for simplicity sake I use my home made bullet lube or if shooting BPCR and wiping I use my wiping solution which is NAPA cutting oil mixed with water. An example of another way,  I have seen my friend Dennis Bruns first shoot a bullet-less round loaded with powder and a big plug of lube. Gota love Dennis.

It was my hope to write a question that would tease out the experiences of others who have walked this road.

I hope I have done a better job conveying my thoughts. All the best, Michael Rix

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onondaga posted this 25 March 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=4154>rmrix:

A really clean/dry barrel can be helped before shooting (cast bullets) with Johnson's Paste Wax. Put enough on a patch that you are sure there is enough to thoroughly coat the bore with a few strokes. Wait 2 minutes for wax to dry. Put a fluffy bore swab  on the cleaning rod and buff the wax about 5-10 strokes.

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RicinYakima posted this 25 March 2013

Michael,

I my opinion, yes I know, the only way to completely clean out copper or lead is with the reverse plating method. I works 100% of the time and is 100% effective if you follow directions correctly and exactly.

My shooting buddy and I have a “Foul-Out II". We bought one gallon of copper solution and one gallon of lead solution. We have used up all of the copper on new to us used rifles, and hardly any of the lead solution. We just don't need it anymore.

With a chemically cleaned bore, I use RIG gun grease in the bore for corrosion protection. It also stops all leading, but it takes about 20 rounds to shoot it out of the bore so groups settle down to normal.

Ric

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rmrix posted this 25 March 2013

onondaga OK, Johnson's Wax is on hand for tumble lube, Which I almost never do. I will give it a try is a bore preconditioner.

Hey Rich, Yup, I have the home made version. You might remember about 20-25 years ago, a publication we know and love ran a step by step to build one - and I did. Then a retraction was in the next issue because they went 'afoul' of the commercial made product. My home made works well.:wnk:

(I have zero remorse for all the bad puns):doooah:

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RicinYakima posted this 25 March 2013

Michael, Yep the homemade ones work just great, mechanically. The issue was, and is, the ionic solution that you use in the bore. That is why they are seldom sold anymore, simple to make and if you are careful, rust free. Screw-up and you have a rusted bore 10 times worse than corrosive ammo. Now you can just buy the solution and have a great fool-proof solution. Ric

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Chargar posted this 25 March 2013

I do much like others do. I run a patch or two wet with Ed's Red followed by two dry patches. Another patch with some Breakfree on it and that is that.

It will take 2 to 5 fouling rounds for the rifle to settle back down into it regular performance.

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Pigslayer posted this 26 March 2013

onondaga wrote: Bore conditioning depends on what condition the bore is in, A little rust, a little pitting, a little copper, a little crown damage?

First if there is crown damage, I'll fix it or get it done. The rest of the problems, I treat all at once and get the bore in the best condition I can get it for cast bullets. I've posted my bore polishing method in the accuracy forum here and refer readers to it frequently. It does work well and the 3 pages of comments are worth reading too. I do this with all my rifles once when new or even if they are old when I get them to optimize what I have for cast bullets.. Link:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8364&forum_id=63>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

This procedure gets out any copper if there is any and will smooth light pitting or rough bores to get them to like cast bullets better. The polishing will also take a below average factory new bore finish and make it match grade slick with a finely polished surface that cast bullets like. In every case the polishing does make bore cleaning in the future a lot less work due to the fine finish.

At the range, I pull a dry Hoppe's Bore Snake through once every 5 rounds and before season storage I clean with Hoppe's Elite then wax the bore with  Johnson's Paste Wax.

Gary

Gary, Finally ordered my Hoppe's bore snake for my .444 Handi-Rifle. I was able to locate one of the older one's & not the “Viper". Plan on ordering myLEE hardness tester soon. Thanks for all your good info, Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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onondaga posted this 26 March 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6171>Pigslayer"

Great Pat!

Gary

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