Hi guys,
Once again, i would like to learn more from you:dude:
Does anybody cast or has been casted for his 223 semi-auto rifle?
The rifle i own is a ar15 m16 made by armelite
Any info is welcome, i only did casting for handguns for many years incl magnums, and for the past one-two years also for my 308, (up to 2800fps with no leading) My main concern is leading where the bullet enters the barrel, and the action when firing(reduced loads), for the cycle. Thanks in advance, again:lovecast:
P-H
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Hi there parkerhale1200, I do cast for ar-15 and am putting together a thread on some experiments. I use the NOE saeco mold which in linotype with lube and gascheck weigh 60 grains. The short version of what I found is use reduced rifle powders for the gun to function and be accurate. In my franken-ar I've been using H322, AA2230, AA2520 H4895, AA2495 IMR 3031 in reduced loads. The magic number is 18.0 grains of any of the above and dial in 0.5 up or down from there. my best have been 17.5 of AA2230 And 18.0 of AA2520. They both chrony out at 2150 fps. No signs of leading with Lee alox or 50/50. good luck
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I get cast to work for me in an AR15/5.56mm Heavy barrel match 1:8 twist
Mold 225646, cast in Lyman #2, sized&checked @.225” all up weight 60 gr. I tumble lube warmed, once before size/check and twice after with 45:45:10 .
My current charge is 19.1 gr AA2230 @ 2452 fps verified. Bullets seated to maximum functioning length , you may not get as far as I do so my actual LOA would be meaningless to you. . Load groups just under 2 moa @100 yards from my AR and 1 MOA from my single shot varmint rifle.
RX7 and 4198 will shoot as accurately but only to about 250 fps lower velocity. My rifle likes AA2230, yours may not.
Again, as usual, bullet size is the most important and critical factor getting ARs to shoot cast. The largest bullet diameter that will chamber/function is the only size to bother trying or expect dismal results in a semi-auto.
Some succeed with an alloy/charge that gets the bullets to obturate. That is a workable theory but generally more difficult in this small caliber and usually a long road of trial and error compared to bullets that fit right with an alloy hardness like Lyman #2 and gas checks.
Gary
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Gary, Have you had any luck with 2200? I have a slug of that and a Saeco 60g mold.
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I have not tried 2200. I only tried AA2230 because it was on sale at Midway for $11.99/lb a couple years ago and I got 10 lbs then because it is recommended for so many of the calibers I shoot. The 2230 has worked well with cast for me in .223, .308 Win, 30-30 Win, 7.62X39mm and .458 Win Mag.
The 2230 is actually similar and as consistent as H335 in my opinion.
Gary
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Thanks everyone, this puts a big smile on my face, now i know what i must do in my up comming vacation. AA2230 and IMR 3031 are powders that i have access to, cant wait to try them also in my 223.
cmdrted, i looking foreward to those threads, keep me posted please.
@Gary i presume that you have a lyman mold 225646 Indeed its an other problem: the obturation, i have to figure that one out myself): i have plenty lead alloys and ingredients to mix and come to a good result. Your lyman #2 what is your final hardness? Icast for my 308 a 30-35bhn for full power loads. and 18-20 for reduced loads as also for 357(38 12bhn)
Thank you all(:
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Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near those harnesses you mention at 18-20 or 30-35. Those hi hardnesses make bullet fit and lube more critical and lower obturation in the bore, if you can get any obturation at all at those high hardnesses and also those same hi hardnesses lower expansion on game to zero. I hunt small game from chipmunks to coyote with these bullets.
My #2 alloy drops bullets at BHN 14 then naturally age hardens to 15 BHN in a week. The #2 alloy has been very cooperative for any load level I shoot in .223 from 1100 to 2500 fps with the 225646 bullet.
The bullet size is very important and cannot be over stressed. The size I use checked at .225” fills the throat to contact with either of my .223 rifles. That is the key to fitting and may or may not be the size that works with your rifle.
Don't be convinced that because very high BHN works for some shooters that it will work for you. The fit is much more important and gas checked bullets in #2 alloy will go as far as you can in a .223 if they fit well.
Gary
225646:
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Gary, Very nice work your bullets. The hardness i was talking about is only for target practice at 100 and 300 yard, not for game. My full power loads are 39-43 grains of n140 with speeds over 2600fps(MY sweet spot is 39.8 at 30-35bhn) My reduced loads are 21-28 grains of lovexd060 with has the same burnrate as 5744 of accurate(MY sweetspot 25.2 at 18-20bhn, they dont sell 5744 anymore over here) Both are for my 308, with those loads sized at 309 i have no leading and i shoot under one inch at 100 yards,copper cant beat that(:
My lead bullits are seated just deep enough to let the barrel engrave his lands and groves on it. I thought one moa was 1 inch at 100 yards, but i am not certain Unfortunaly with 12-14 bhn i have leading, and no uniform print. Lets see what the old ar likes.:thinking:
Thanks for all the info, i gives me food for thought, some playing time and a starting point. Aint it nice how every gun reacts on different kind of lead and speed, i love it
With best regards Parker-Hale:riflebr:
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I'm new to this forum and hoping I can post this right. Read with great interest about the .223 automatic cast bullets and various loads used. The following is a work in progress.
I have shot 100's of cast bullets using an RCBS 22-55-SP #82007. w/copper gas checks. Sized .224 and lubed with a star lube sizer Using WhiteLube's Carnauba Red 2400+. No leading ever! Going to try something a little harder. When I unloaded a 20 round clip with rapid fire, and of course a very, very hot barrel the lube migrated to the bolt and onto the clip . I didn't bother to clean the magazine, still works fine. My gas port is slick as a whistle after such abuse.
After weeks of trying every powder in my inventory, some with horrible results. I even tried various pistol powders and a couple of shot gun powders before discovering Hodgdon's BLC-(2).
LYMAN'S CAST BULLET HANDBOOK is a wonderful tool and I rely on it daily. But when it comes to .223 AR loads it really sucks. It needs a serious update. I found the load that I'm going to stick with in my future endeavors to achieve superior accuracy and a clean rifle. Cast Bullet RCBS 22-25-SP mold Bullet--59.5 Grain average wt. w/gas check and lube
Well used Lake City Brass Trimmed to 1.75 23.5 gr. Hodgdon BLC-(2) Overall length when loaded and crimped is 2.125 I have no chronograph figures yet, due to lousy weather, but careful inspection of the fired brass show no hi pressure signs. I am using a Lee factory crimp die. And setting the bullets tight. When using low pressure loads. The tight crimp should help expand the case neck and prevent the black soot on the brass.
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Hi Guys,
I just found this thread. I've been shooting cast in my AR 15 carbine for almost a year. Mine is a 5.56 chamber and is really big in the throat and neck area. The gas port is 8” from the bolt face and using Quick Load computer program it estimates the port pressure at ~ 12000 PSI. I've found that it's about as low as I can go with 15 grs. of Rel 7 and still work the action reliably. I've shot over 1,000 this year through it with about 2 to 3 moa accuracy. The gas system shows no problems at all and runs as clean as with high pressure loads.
I approached it from a different angle. I cast very hard bullets out of monotype at 31 bhn. They are sized at .225” and seated as far out as they can be to go through the magazine. The twist is 1 in 9” which is way too fast for the RCBS 55 gr bullet. If I run it over 2150 fps. accuracy go away.
My plans are to make up a 1 in 14” barrel for it with a very short throat in 223 Rem. and see if it can do better. I have no doubt that it will beat the heck out of the military chamber fast twist barrel. I want to engrave the ojive at magazine length and not let them jump.
I recently tried some heat treated ww bullets at 31 bhn and they didn't shoot as well as the high alloy ones did for some reason. They were 5 grs. heavier than the high alloy bullets but the same size etc..
After reading your suggestions, I think I'll try some ww+ 4% tin and see if they can do better. I haven't tried any other powder than REL. 7 except AA 4100 and 2230. Neither shot with enough pressure to work the action reliably and hold accuracy. I'll keep you posted on what transpires when I try it some more. I'll work with it again after my prairie dog trip to SD. in July.
Tom Gray
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Tom - we just got back from SD hunting PD's. Love to see your results with .223/cast. I was using .308, .223 and a lever action in .357Mag (the most fun one - see attached). Where in SD?
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There is much to learn, please let the info comming. THANKS GUYS(:
C Ya
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On the FALFiles, on the sub-board devoted to the AR, there is a thread entitled, “Medium Velocity with Varget Powder?", that you might want to look at. The OP was experimenting with various loads. The OP asked if anyone had an old issue of “Handloader", and I summarized it.
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Guys, I did some accuracy testing with the AR and the RCBS 55 gr. bullet. This time I mounted a 36X benchrest scope on the rifle so that I wasn't testing optics or my ability to see. I was very pleased with the results to say the least.
The FMJ load with AA 2230 produced groups that agged at about 1.75” for 3 five shot groups at 100 yds. It was not windy. The cast loads agged at 1.67” which really surprised me. The great thing about it was the rife that was sighted in to hit right on at 50 yards was right on again at 100 yds. with the cast load at 2120 fps.!!! A great load for offhand practice and plinking.
The load I shot this time was 15 grs. of Rel. #7 and the RCBS 225-55 gr. bullet seated to just go through the magazine. I don't doubt that if I seated them out to touch the lands when chambered it would shoot even better. Still, sized at .225 which is the largest sizer die. I have, it performed very well considering the generous military chamber dimensions.
This time I shot the bullets that were cast of wheel weights and heat treated to 31 Brinnell hardness. They came out at ~ 59 grains with that alloy. Lube was Gray # 24 and never any leading anywhere in the gun.
The major problem with shooting lead in AR's is the fast twist barrels and mil. spec chambers. Most folks who try them give up because they don't understand that the bullet skin which is engraves ~ .002” simply does not have the purchase power to spin the bullet up to speed in such a short distance without slipping the lands and damaging the bullets's integrity. If they slowed the load down till it was accurate and worked up loads below that velocity, they would discover that they can shoot quite well; even better than junky jacketed (lead bullets wearing copper condoms) bullets that are offered for AR's.
Judge, I finally figgered out where to go on the net to find your post on slow loads using Varget. I've run this powder through my internal ballistics program and being rather slow, it doesn't develop much pressure down the barrel where the gas port is located and still not exceed the max. velocity the twist will allow. I modelled quite a few powders in the program that shows pressure vs. bullet travel in the barrel and Reloader 7 showed the best pressure curve to supply pressure at the port and function the action. Also, the efficiency was almost 100% powder burned in a 16 inch barrel. For me to use any slower or faster powder I would have to open up the gas port dia. to work the action at the maximum velocity load that is accurate in my 9 twist barrel. As I said in an earlier post, the port is located 8” from the bolt face and by the time the bullet reaches that point, the gas pressure has dropped to where it will barely work the action. I'm thinking that a gas port at 6 or 7” from the bolt face would work much better and allow other slower and faster powders to be used. As long as it didn't effect the timing of the action and open the bolt too soon I think it would work. A standard length barrel would be even harder to make work as the gas port is even further down the barrel than that of my carbine. If time permits, I have a 14 twist 22 barrel that I will chamber up in .223 and install on the AR. This twist should reduce the torque on the skin of the bullet considerably and allow more velocity and powder to be used. I'll also install the gas block at 7” instead of 8 and modify it to be an adjustable gas block. In a 14” twist barrel, cast bullets are routinely shot at over 2300 fps. with no problems at all.
Ps. I live in Milan and am a member of Maybee Sportsmans club.
TRK, I was kind of disappointed shooting PD's this year. The plague has gone through the White River SD area and literally wiped out most of the dog towns in the area. We only shot for a couple of days on what was left around there. I don't shoot lead bullets on PD's but they should work pretty good on close in shots. I didn't take any forensic photographs. Any ideas of a better place to try?
I took some forensic photo's years ago when we were testing the effectiveness of the 22 rimfire Mag on Pd's and sent the gory photo's to my partner's computer. His wife opened up his e-mail and almost barfed on the keyboard. She should not have been snooping in his e-mails.....
Tom
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The lightest MAX load Alliant lists for an even lighter bullet than yours is 20 grains. Standard reduction of 10% equals an 18 gr minimum start for REL#7 in a .223. This is relative to case volume and powder type and relates to jacketed or cast bullets for safety.
Rel#7 is a position sensitive powder and prone to cause misfires, muzzle flashing and detonations below minimum recommended charges. Your 15 gr charge of Rel #7 has the potential to hurt your rifle and your self.
I, personally, have had these problems with Rel #7 and reduced loads with cast bullets in .458 Win Mag. My remedy was to use BPI Original ballistic filler in the .458 to bring the total of the charge plus filler to equal a 106% volume compressed load. Muzzle flashing and misfires completely stopped in well over 1,000 rounds since the failed and dangerous reduced charges with no filler disasters. Alliant will NOT recommend the use of fillers at all, So try this at your own risk if you proceed in this direction when you notice the position sensitivity of Rel #7, You will notice it sooner or later and it won't be pleasant. Be advised that magnum primers will intensify the potential of danger with Rel#7 and reduced loads with cast bullets by pushing the bullet forward before the charge is fully ignited.
Reduced loads with H4895 are not position sensitive above 60% case volume in any caliber. Try running 4895 loads in your software.
Gary
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Gary, Thanks for the “heads up” on Rel.7. To be honest, it has performed beautifully in this gun for over 1200 rounds. I've had no indication of detonation, hang fires or pressure excursions. I've shot probably a hundred over the chrono and it showed normal standard deviations on velocity. The load is impressive in that it throws the empties in a neat little pile about 6 feet away at about 3 O,Clock. One reason I use it is that I have a real old lot of it in a 8 pounder that half full. I figgered I'd use it up in the AR. I'm using WSR primers. Maybe the fact that it slams them into battery so hard it positions the powder more uniformly than say a bolt gun. Also, this gun has the very long free bore of a NATO metric military case. Maybe that plays into it too. That bullet is jumping a long ways.
I ran H 4895 in my Quick Load internal ballistics program. This powder is quite a bit slower than R=7 but the pressure curve looks to be even better than R-7 at the gas port in the barrel. The gas port is at 5.7” of bullet travel on the carbine length barrel. It takes 19.8 grs. of 4895 to get a MV of 2120 fps. It takes only 15 grs. of R-7 of my lot of powder to get the same velocity. The port pressure is estimated to be 17,075 psi with 4895 and 16,628 with 15 grs. of R-7. Thus, 4895 should work the action even better than R-7. 19.8 of 4895 is a 79.8 full case and is predicted to burn 73.4 % of the powder in the barrel.
I'll check my powder stash out in the pole barn and see if I have any 4895 to try. My program only lists H 4895 to work with and not IMR 4895 so that is what I used for the calculations.
Tom
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Did some more work with the cast bullets in the AR 15.
A month or so ago I did some accuracy testing in my AR with my standard load of 15 grs. of Rel. 7 and a 55 gr. RCBS bullet. I put a 36 power scope on the AR so as to not be testing my eyes but the load. I shot 3, 5 shot groups and took the average spread at 100 yds. It came out to be a 1.67” aggregate. I shot three five shot groups with FMJ bullets AKA (lead bullets wearing copper condoms) and they shot 1.75” groups. The lead loads were more accurate than the junky FMJ bullets.
I sighted the lead load to be on at 50 yds. and I was pleasantly surprised to see it was right on again at 100 yds.!! This was with a 3/4” riser under the scope so that the barrel was much lower than the line of sight.
My gun has a 9 twist barrel and I know that that twist is way too fast for lead bullets of 55 grs. Yesterday, my brother was visiting from VA. and brought his Colt Miliitary/law enforcement model AR that has an even faster twist barrel at 7 revs. per foot. I was very interested to see if the cast loads for my gun would even group in his faster twist. We were again pleasantly surprised to see it grouped almost as well as mine shooting a one hole 10 shot group of about 3/4 inch at 25 yards. These were heat treated wheel weight bullets at ~ 31 brinnell hardness. That load of 15 grains wouldn't work his action and would occasionally eject the spent casing but wouldn't feed another round. I think that to make it work in his gun, he would have to go to a lighter recoil spring and/or a lighter recoil spring buffer. He doesn't want to mess with the gas port diameter as it would certainly over gas the gun with a hot military round.
Brother Pat has a 70 grain custom mould on order and I'm anxious to see how that one works as it should be well stabilized in the 7 twist barrel, has more bearing length and can develop more pressure. He will send me a bunch to try in my gun when he gets delivery of the new mould. When I get to shoot that bullet, I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
I wonder if we could get Lee to make up some 6 cavity 70 gr. 22 cal. moulds on a special order for us? I see that they don't offer any 22 cal. moulds at all but with the increased interest in them and the lack of bullets available for AR's, it might be to their advantage to start.
Tom Gray
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correction to my above post.
While contemplating what I wrote above, it dawned on me that I mis spoke on describing a 7 twist barrel. It should read one revolution each 7 inches, not 7 revs. per foot.
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I Hope you will get some other opinions too but a 6 cavity mold in .22 would be very hard to operate successfully in my opinion. I have been casting bullets since 1957 and have a few 6 cavity molds. the smaller the cavities are, the harder balanced thermodynamics of casting is to balance. That is a lot of mold metal for 6 small cavities and cooling will be very rapid. The sixes depend on precise timing for sprue cutting or you will break them if metal is too cool.
Good luck if you have one made, but I'd be very cautious and walk up use by first casting in 2 of its cavities till the mold is warm enough to try 4, then full 6 cavity pour. You may not get to the full 6 cavity pour without very fast cadence in a very hot mold. Sprue freeze and cutter plate hinge breakage is a likely problem without a specific mold block and sprue cutter plate temperature maintenance with an accessory heating setup. The small amount of hot metal poured into a 6 cavity, 22 cal mold is not enough to warm the large mold blocks in my opinion and my skill level. Personally, I wouldn't even try that.
Bear in mind that bullet alloy stream temperatures when pouring over 750 degrees F. causes instant oxidation of Tin on the surface of the metal flow before it even gets into the mold. That condition seriously effects bullet quality. You may have to turn your pot to 800 to get casting to work at all, but the bullet quality will be poor and spotted with Tin oxide, voids and poor fill-out.
An example: I can get the Lee 18 cavity buckshot and the SharpShooter 20 cavity buckshot molds to work but they take substantial heating and my fastest casting cadence possible or they freeze right up and I get poor fill-out. My 6 cavity RanchDog molds in 30 cal and 45 cal are both challenging to operate and require very fast cadence. The 45 cal is easy compared to the 30 cal but I could only imagine the difficulty in 22 cal if they were available.
Gary
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