BHN range for rifle bullets

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  • Last Post 15 August 2013
Keith posted this 26 May 2013

I have started to cast for a 30-30 and will be using both plain base designs and gas checked. I have cast for revolvers for some time and have alloys that are 10 to 12 BHN. I have a good supply of linotype to add to adjust these when harder bullets are required for appropriate loads. Loading data for the caliber list velocities from 1200 fps to 2000 and the higher should require a higher BNH. I have read through my own references and the archives here looking for a suggestions on the range of hardness that would be needed but have not found anything definitive for rifle velocities and pressures. My question then is what is ideal range for BHN for both cast bullets in rifles for both plain base and gas checked that is optimum for preventing leading or an available reference?

Some details because that makes a difference. The rifle is a Ruger #1. This is a recreational rifle for range use and experimentation. Alloys are scrap lead of tested hardness and linotype. Molds my own and the generosity of others; Lyman 311042, 311291, and the RCBS 150 PB with others possibly to be added. Powders I have available in these times in sufficient amounts are Unique, 2400 and old Hercules Reloader 7.

Thank you for you thoughts. Keith DVM

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Ed Harris posted this 27 May 2013

Keith,

A simple approximation which will get you going with a high confidence of success is to take 3 (BHN x 480) as a good starting chamber pressure, and don't try to exceed 4 (BHN x 480) on the top end.

Based on this estimator 12 BHN works at 17,000-23,000

92-6-2 alloy at 16 BHN works best at 23,000-30,700

Linotype at 22 BHN works best at 31,700-42,200

This estimator agrees well with experience.

I use wheelweights with good results for plainbased loads and commercial “hardball” alloy mixed 50-50 with wheelweights for hunting loads with gaschecked bullets in cartridges like the .30-40 Krag and .30-30, where I want to load up to about 1800 fps with good expansion and where mild leading for a few rounds of carefully fitted and lubed bullets are not a problem.

With the powders you have 7-8 grains of Unique is in the right range for .30-30 with a plainbased bullet of 150-170 grains.( 170! TYPO CORRECTED)

With #2400 10-12 grs. work with plainbased and 13-16 grs. with gasechecks.

With RL-7 stick to GC bullets and your best target accuracy will be in the range of 18-21 grains, and you can use up to 24 grs. with GC bullets for hunting purposes.

With 150-gr. jacketed softpoint bullet 29 grs. of RL-7 approximates factory velocity.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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LWesthoff posted this 27 May 2013

If you have access to a good supply of lino, I don't think you can go very far wrong. I prefer lino for target competition with both my .300W Savage Production Class rifle and my 03A3 Military Issue Class Rifle. MV for all my most accurate loads run 1700 - 1800 fps. Any faster and I start losing accuracy. I notice you're not a CBA member. If you join, you'll get a lot of very good info 6 times a year on loads, powders, and most accurate MV's for the loads listed, for every load fired in sanctioned CBA competition.

Well worth the very nominal membership dues!

Wes

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CB posted this 27 May 2013

On the CBA website there are military match results posted. The load data for the 30-06, 7.5 Swiss, and 30-40 Krag will also work for other 30 caliber cartridges like the 30-30, 308, 300 Savage and 30 REM. Most of the loads are a medium reduced load and I find will work within about a 10% range of all these 30 cartridges, so I usually start at a 10% drop.

I find 20:1 lead:tin works good ( the softer bhn the better) for the couple of plain-base loads I have experimented with, and not over 1,200 fps. A tumble lube like Lee Liquid Alox or White Label 45/45/10 perform excellent in pb loads.........Dan

(I have had no luck in pushing Unique up much over 10-11 grs in 30 caliber loads. The pressure peaks rapidly and causes leading.)

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Keith posted this 03 June 2013

Thank you for the answers.

I had forgotten the about the formula for BHN and pressures. Even old cow doctors need to be reminded of doses once in while. The starting points for the powders and accuracy ranges are helpful also. This is again a recreational project and I intended to try different molds and alloys and powders once available. I have found that softer alloys are usually better but then all of my prior casting has been for revolvers. Enough linotype is on hand to give that a try also. I am a member of the association and read The Fowling Shot but often give my copy away to encourage others to join. This is a case where I wish I had kept copies or made copies of more articles.

Keith DVM

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jhalcott posted this 10 June 2013

You CAN over think this cast bullet thing! I use clip on wheel weights for MOST of my uses. I do not get into competition, but do hunt and plink with cast in several calibers. I have used straight linotype on occassion, especially in the .22 and 6mm calibers.This works OK for varmints,but can be messy on small edible critters. As far as the old articles, I'm sure there are those here that have them. Just ask!

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JeffinNZ posted this 25 June 2013

You know, the more I shoot alloy bullets the softer the metal I use. I started out, as I am sure many do, burning linotype because if a little bit of hard is good, a lot must be better. Just other day I was shooting the .30-30 bolt gun I have and the alloy was stick on WW with a splash of tin based babbit. BHN is just shy of 8 and with a gas checked bullet I am getting at least 1650fps and clover leaf groups at 50m. Now 8 BHN alloy doing 16-1700fps is a great hunting bullet!

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JeffinNZ/media/Shooting%20stuff/50mCBE311_zps1d76ef2d.jpg.html>

Cheers from New Zealand

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apbluebass posted this 25 June 2013

Keith, How does one calculate pressure?

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LBD posted this 25 June 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7581>apbluebass wrote: Keith, How does one calculate pressure? There is instrumentation available to the hobbyist that requires one to attach pressure transducers to the rifle's chamber.  I think PACT makes such a device but since I'm cheap, I fiddle with QuickLoad and the data in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.  Naturally, I make a lot of mistakes in trying to shoot the softest alloy possible, but that's part of the fun.

BTW, this is my first post and not to highjack this thread but I'm interested in finding out what alloy others are using for plain base bullet in the 30-'06.  COWW (clip-on wheel weight) alloy works pretty well in some cases but long term storage ruins their ductility; i.e., my last batch of bullets cast with COWW+a bit of softer Pb, increased approximately 4 BHN values just by sitting around for about 6 months.  I was able to restore them to BHN 11 by annealing but less than a week later they increased to BHN 12.

Anyway, what alloys and powders are you guys using for serious accuracy with PB .30 caliber bullets?  By serious accuracy, I mean < 1MOA out to 150-200 yards.  Beyond about 150 yards I expect some instability at these lower velocities, especially with my 190 grain .30's with .180” meplats and I realize better stability can be expected with more aerodynamic bullets, but I want to develop these loads for “varminting” with the '06 and 30-30.  I realize I could also paper patch and/or use a gas check design, but that's not my focus right now.  If I need to move or re-post to another forum, please let me know.

Thanks for listening, LBD

P.S. If anyone is interested, I designed the bullet molds mentioned above specifically for the '06, with an estimated BC of .380 or better, which reside in the Accurate Molds catalog. Links available on request.

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Keith posted this 26 June 2013

A few comments now that I have had the rifle to the range a few times. I like Jeff have found that 14 grains of 2400 works well with the Lyman 311041. More opens up the groups and they tend to string upward. The alloy I am using is in the range of 15 BHN. I usually cast in the range of 10 to 11 BHN for revolver loads and will be trying that next. What I am learning from reading and shooting is that just as in the revolver soft alloys are more forgiving and easier to find a accurate load with. If the bullet fits chamber and bore harder will work but it has to be right. My Reloader 7 has my father's hand writing on them dating them to 1988. They powder I am suspect is no long of use as I have been unable to get any accuracy. I will have to wait out the current shortages and try again with new powder. Plain base bullet will have to wait until there is more time for the range.

apbluebass: If you have a loading manual that give the pressure of loads and I thing the Lyman Cast Bullet manuals do you can use those pressures for the formula that Ed reminded me of. The intent of the calculation is get one in to the right range.

Keith DVM

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LBD posted this 26 June 2013

I've been using Richard Lee's formula for maximum chamber pressure which IIRC, is .9(BHNx1440). Unfortunately, accuracy has been hit and miss with 195-200 grain PB bullets. I have shot a couple good groups with 15.0 and 15.5 grains of WC-820 (AA#9) in Remington '06 cases (approx. 1400fps) but have not been able to reproduce the results by going up or down in powder burning rate while simultaneously adjusting charge weight. For example 16.0 grains of 4759 shot OK after a few foulers but after a single five shot group accuracy disappeared even though leading was not apparent. Also, fiddling with Blue Dot has shown some promise at 12.5 grains but at 13.0 accuracy disappeared again. I've made an effort to keep the velocity below 1450 fps with any and all powders while shooting PB bullets. Perhaps I'm just not using enough pressure for my alloys, which as I explained above, grow harder with age.

LBD

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badgeredd posted this 26 June 2013

LBD wrote Anyway, what alloys and powders are you guys using for serious accuracy with PB .30 caliber bullets?  By serious accuracy, I mean < 1MOA out to 150-200 yards.  Beyond about 150 yards I expect some instability at these lower velocities, especially with my 190 grain .30's with .180” meplats and I realize better stability can be expected with more aerodynamic bullets, but I want to develop these loads for “varminting” with the '06 and 30-30.  I realize I could also paper patch and/or use a gas check design, but that's not my focus right now.  If I need to move or re-post to another forum, please let me know.

Thanks for listening, LBD

P.S. If anyone is interested, I designed the bullet molds mentioned above specifically for the '06, with an estimated BC of .380 or better, which reside in the Accurate Molds catalog. Links available on request.

Welcome aboard...I think you'll like this forum over that other one...it seems there a fewer egos here.

What bullet did you design for a PB is the 06? I have been surprised with my accuracy results with PB bullets in a number of cartridges, but most especially in my little wild cat...30 Badger. One thing I have found with it is that if a bullet starts out right below the speed of sound, it stays stable for a long time, which I assume is due to the fact it doesn't go through the trans-sonic transition. Of course the trajectory becomes quite a rainbow!

Edd

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LBD posted this 26 June 2013

Hi Edd... thanks for the welcome.

Links to the two bullets referenced above:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-185J-D.png>http://accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=31-185J-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png>http://accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png

The leading .040” long groove is a debris groove, not a crimp groove.  Since these designs are for a SAAMI '06 chambers, they're supposed to seat slightly above the .445” point (depending on cartridge case length and throat wear) when sized to .311".  Seated in this manner, part of the .14” long base would be below the neck/shoulder junction but the trailing lube groove should be completely contained w/in the cartridge case neck (at least with respect to my pre-64 M70).  I originally designed these two thinking I was going to have Tom cut me a 4 cavity mold with 2 cavities each and now I'm trying to decide which of the two to have a 3 cavity mold made first.  The reason I decided against the 4-cavity is because I use Rowell ladles and just noticed from Tom's photos how close the first cavity is to the sprue pivot on his molds larger than three cavities.  I'd be pretty much guaranteed to get alloy under the plate washer of his 2.9” and 3.45” molds no matter how they are mounted to the handles.  I talked to Tom about making a 4 cavity mold block with a different sprue plate but that would require additional jigs; i.e., more $$.  No big deal, I'll just decide which one I want to play with first.  A two cavity mold with one cavity each would currently be too time consuming for me at the casting bench.

The PB mold I'm currently using was cut for me long ago by MM and drops a bullet weighing about 198 grains in my alloy.  It's a bit more nose heavy due to its slightly longer ogive which is a tangent configuration opposed to secant config's possessed by the designs in the AM catalog and the meplat on my current mold is .2” in diameter (IIRC, the minimum allowed by MM at the time).  The 198 has shot pretty well with 15 and 15.5 grains of WC-820 but has shown what looks to be like instability on the target... perhaps I just haven't got the alloy/powder combo thing down yet with respect to PB .30's.

BTW, it's really warming up in So.KA this week but I still need to shoot a few groups next Monday with MML-Purple to see if I can reproduce my previous results with 15 grains of WC-820.  Hopefully my alloy will register a tiny bit softer than 14 by range day.  I think the last batch registered about 13 the day after casting so I might need to anneal tonight. Watching my bullets age harden even though they were air cooled is gettin' to be a pain in the rear.

Thanks again, LBD

P.S. Let me know if you think 31-185J carries too much lube... that's the one I'm think about doing first.

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jhalcott posted this 27 June 2013

LBD, you COULD just tumble lube these in LLA. You wont notice if too much is used. Since I am LAZY ,I DO NOT worry about a miss on a varmint(just means I sit in the shade longer!) I used the 30-06 and 30-30 (TC CONTENDER)for ground hogs for several years. Tried a bunch of molds and lubes,even teflon tape. I can relate to the frustration of NON repeating results. I BELIEVE mine were self induced though. Much of my alloy back then was “mystery metal” consisting of range pickups, COWW and scrap from work. SOME bullets were cast in the fall and loaded and shot the next summer. Welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the ride!

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LBD posted this 27 June 2013

jhalcott wrote: LBD, ...Welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the ride! Thank you.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=1251>jhalcott wrote: LBD, you COULD just tumble lube these in LLA. I'm sorry, that would be against my religion.

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badgeredd posted this 28 June 2013

LBD,

Those designs remind me a bit of the Saeco #315. I modified a 311466 to kinda clone the Saeco mold. If you are concerned about lube capacity, I'd load 10 each, one set with both grooves filled and 10 with only the bottom groove filled.

One thing I have been noticing is that as our bullet lubes get better, one can use less lube with stellar results. MML is such a lube.

Edd

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LBD posted this 28 June 2013

So which one do you like better Edd, 31-185J or 31-185K? I haven't had either one produced yet; however, the calculated volume of lube that J will hold is about 20% more than K.

LBD

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LBD posted this 28 June 2013

To get back on topic... I'm going to load up some of my 198 grain bullets from my Mountain Mold tonight and I'm shooting for a BHN between 12 and 13 by Monday morning which is when I'll be shooting them with 15 grains of WC-820 (AA#9). If the targets meet my expectations, I'll post 'em here. I'll probably just shoot five from a cold, clean bbl, then a 10 shot group for the record. Lube will be MML-Purple and the shooting should be completed before the thermometer hits 90F.

LBD

P.S. Regarding the same alloy as above:

This time I baked at 400F for about 45 minutes and turned up the heat to 425F for the remaining 35 minutes and allowed the bullets to cool in the oven over night with the door closed. 2 days later they registered BHN 10 or a whole BHN value less than the previous annealing when I opened the oven door one hour after shutting down from 450F.  I'm going to test them again on the night of the 1st rather than shooting them that morning as previously planned.

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LBD posted this 03 July 2013

Well I finally got around to shooting some BHN 10 plain base bullets (from the 198 grain MM) with 16.0 grains of 4759.

The first 5 shot group after a fouler from a clean bbl was good... 5/8” C-C with 3 rounds in one ragged hole at 75 yards.

Unfortunately, the remaining three, 5-shot groups were just plain bad... mostly vertical stringing with shifting group centers. Stats over the chronograph were good (SD=9.5).

LBD

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badgeredd posted this 04 July 2013

LBD wrote: So which one do you like better Edd, 31-185J or 31-185K? I haven't had either one produced yet; however, the calculated volume of lube that J will hold is about 20% more than K.

LBD

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png>http://accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png

 I like this one but that is totally my like and really has nothing to do with its potential. I suspect the radius ogive MIGHT be better.

ALSO, that babbit I sent you(?) ...we shot some PB bullets at our mini shoot last year with a balanced alloy (about 2% Sn, 1.9% Sb, 0.1% Cu),  air cooled in a 357 Magnum carbine at just under 1775 fps with no problems. I am guessing the added elements in the babbit had something to do with abrasion resistance...again that is a guess. The lube was MML BTW.

Edd

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LBD posted this 04 July 2013

Edd,

The only difference between the two designs (J&K) is the location and number of center driving band(s) and lube grooves.  When I designed the two, I wanted a mold that would drop a three-groove and two groove version with no other differences (the 2-groove version holds about 20% more lube).  Now I'm trying to decided which one to have cut first (in a 3-cavity mold).

Sorry, you must have me confused with someone else because I never received, nor was I expecting any babbit from you.  I do have a chunk of something very hard that resembles a Pb alloy I picked up at a plumber's estate sale... I wonder if it's babbit?? It's so hard I have been reluctant to add it to my pot.  Perhaps when I can get four or five consecutive groups to look like the good one in the attachment below, I'll experiment with it... assuming I can even locate it anymore!

Here are the first and second groups from yesterday. The range was 75 yards and the velocity, 1375 fps.  Next time I'm shooting for BHN 11-12 and 13 grains of Blue Dot.

BTW, the orange dot is 1.25” in diameter and I need that size dot to be able to see what I'm doing at 75 yards through my bargain 2x7 Leupold set on 6x.

P.S. My lube is always MML or some derivation thereof.  I think I'm going to drop the microwax for summers in the SW though.  When I start spending more time in NOV-FEB in WY, I'll put the BW-430 back into my winter lube and it'll probably be more like your lube.

LBD

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badgeredd posted this 05 July 2013

I see that the designs are the same now after looking at them again. I must have been tilting my head or something last time I looked at them...(-:

I am wondering if your getting lube purge in the second group since the first group is so good.

I do believe I'd go with the three lube groove design. Based on the Saeco 315 clone experience, you might find you only need the 2 bottom grooves filled with lube.

Edd

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LBD posted this 05 July 2013

badgeredd wrote: I am wondering if your getting lube purge in the second group since the first group is so good.

Edd Edd,

I didn't bother posting groups 3 and 4 because they were equally bad as #2, even though the bore was wiped with a tight dry patch before shooting group 3.  There wasn't any real lead on the patch but there were noticeable stripes in the grooves at the muzzle.  After the 21st round was fired a bronze brush was used to remove the leading and it took several passes before the barrel was smooth again.  Also there was a lot of dirty lube on the case necks.  Ambient was in the 90's and the lube was MML-Red.

LBD

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LBD posted this 09 July 2013

12.5 grains Blue Dot, 198 grain plain base, BHN 11, 1347 fps for 7 rounds (top target).

The round that printed high on the top target was the first one in the group and the second round fired through the “cold", clean bbl.  The next 4 rounds clustered at about 9 o'clock and the next two, low and to the left.

I took a short break before firing the lower target.  After four shots into a vertical string, I stopped to assess the situation.  I don't know exactly what went wrong, but there was roughness near the chamber that required several passes with a bronze brush to remove.  The muzzle looked OK but not quite perfectly “seasoned".  Bullet diameter was .3115” before seating into relatively loose fitting Remington brand case necks; i.e., a .3095” bullet can be easily pushed through the case necks by hand after Lee “collet-sizing” and mouth flaring with my Lyman 31 M-die.

The rounds on the bottom target went over the chronograph at 1338, 1334, 1332 and 1338.  The first round through the clean bbl (not shown) went 1369.  I think I'm going to shoot 13 grains of Blue Dot on Wednesday even though it may push me over 1400 fps.

LBD

P.S. Tomorrow I'm going to try slightly smaller .311” bullets (it looked like most of the crud on Mon was in the throat) and 13.0 grains of Blue Dot.  Temp will likely be in the 90's and I'll be using MML-Red.  Bullet depth will be set to engage the throat as usual.

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LBD posted this 04 August 2013

Here's a group shot with the Modern Bond 190 grain spire point at BHN 16.  The load was 11.6 grains of SR-7625 and the lube MML-Red.  It did take 12 rounds to stabilize the bore conditions before this 8 round group was possible at 75 yards.  The velocity for an average of 19 rounds was 1306 fps.  I shot a total of 20 rounds through the chronograph but never count the first PB round through a clean barrel because the velocity is virtually always more than 3 standard deviations above the mean (average) for my usual 15-20 shot strings.  I got these bullets from a shooter at Cast Boolits who posts as HARRYMPOPE and only have about five remaining.  Even though the results were good, I don't think it carries enough lube to make it to 1500 fps and will be having the following mold cut soon: http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png&nbsp;>http://accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=31-185K-D.png.&nbsp; In my Pre-64 M70 30-'06 it should seat somewhere around the .475” point.  The top groove is a “scraper” (no lube).  Also, the “long” secant ogive and .180” meplat should make this design suitable for varminting at 100 to perhaps 150 yards... assuming accuracy levels can be maintained.

LBD

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Pigslayer posted this 04 August 2013

Ed Harris wrote: Keith,

A simple approximation which will get you going with a high confidence of success is to take 3 (BHN x 480) as a good starting chamber pressure, and don't try to exceed 4 (BHN x 480) on the top end.

Based on this estimator 12 BHN works at 17,000-23,000

92-6-2 alloy at 16 BHN works best at 23,000-30,700

Linotype at 22 BHN works best at 31,700-42,200

This estimator agrees well with experience.

I use wheelweights with good results for plainbased loads and commercial “hardball” alloy mixed 50-50 with wheelweights for hunting loads with gaschecked bullets in cartridges like the .30-40 Krag and .30-30, where I want to load up to about 1800 fps with good expansion and where mild leading for a few rounds of carefully fitted and lubed bullets are not a problem.

With the powders you have 7-8 grains of Unique is in the right range for .30-30 with a plainbased bullet of 150-170 grains.( 170! TYPO CORRECTED)

With #2400 10-12 grs. work with plainbased and 13-16 grs. with gasechecks.

With RL-7 stick to GC bullets and your best target accuracy will be in the range of 18-21 grains, and you can use up to 24 grs. with GC bullets for hunting purposes.

With 150-gr. jacketed softpoint bullet 29 grs. of RL-7 approximates factory velocity.

I'm using 35 grains H4198 behind a 300 gr. GC custom bullet. Got it shooting real good at 50 yds but after about 10 shots it starts to open up. My BHN tests at 15.8 and I'm breaking 30,000 chamber pressure. Do you think it advantageous to go to Lino? Would that help to stop my groups from falling off after 10 or so shots?

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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RicinYakima posted this 05 August 2013

Pat,

Until you find out why your groups are expanding, it would just be guessing.

  1. Powder fouling ahead of chamber

  2. Heating the barrel

  3. Hard lube fouling at muzzle

  4. too much lube

  5. too little lube

  6. tired shooter

  7. bags compressing

  8. cartridges heating in the chamber

These are the first things to check.

HTH, Ric

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LBD posted this 05 August 2013

Pigslayer wrote: I'm using 35 grains H4198 behind a 300 gr. GC custom bullet. Got it shooting real good at 50 yds but after about 10 shots it starts to open up. My BHN tests at 15.8 and I'm breaking 30,000 chamber pressure. Do you think it advantageous to go to Lino? Would that help to stop my groups from falling off after 10 or so shots?

Pat What cartridge and how do you know you're breaking 30K (PSI, or CUP?)?  QuickLoad, which is by no means a substitute for a strain gauge, indicates 35 grains of H4198 behind a 300 grain 45-70 bullet falls short of 15K PSI. The first thing I gotta know is, are you starting from a squeaky clean barrel that leads in approximately 10 rounds with diminishing accuracy?  If so, I'm thinking gas leak somewhere... perhaps near the chamber.  Velocity data would be helpful too.  BHN 15.8 should be good for 2000 fps assuming a cast bullet friendly barrel.

LBD

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Pigslayer posted this 05 August 2013

RicinYakima wrote: Pat,

Until you find out why your groups are expanding, it would just be guessing.

  1. Powder fouling ahead of chamber

  2. Heating the barrel

  3. Hard lube fouling at muzzle

  4. too much lube

  5. too little lube

  6. tired shooter

  7. bags compressing

  8. cartridges heating in the chamber

These are the first things to check.

HTH, Ric

I'm more apt to think it has to be with barrel heat. That had been going through my mind. I didn't really give the rifle the time I should have to properly cool off I have to admit. Also the barrel on that Handi-Rife is a bull barrel . . . a lot of steel.I have both tumble lubed with LEE LLA & pan lubed with my homemade lube. I've found that I'm getting better groups with my homemade lube. I'm using 1 grain polyester filler so I know my powder Is being held in place. I don't find any leading & the barrel is very clean & shiny with little effort in cleaning. Finding the problem will be a process of elimination.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 05 August 2013

LBD wrote: Pigslayer wrote: I'm using 35 grains H4198 behind a 300 gr. GC custom bullet. Got it shooting real good at 50 yds but after about 10 shots it starts to open up. My BHN tests at 15.8 and I'm breaking 30,000 chamber pressure. Do you think it advantageous to go to Lino? Would that help to stop my groups from falling off after 10 or so shots?

Pat What cartridge and how do you know you're breaking 30K (PSI, or CUP?)?  QuickLoad, which is by no means a substitute for a strain gauge, indicates 35 grains of H4198 behind a 300 grain 45-70 bullet falls short of 15K PSI. The first thing I gotta know is, are you starting from a squeaky clean barrel that leads in approximately 10 rounds with diminishing accuracy?  If so, I'm thinking gas leak somewhere... perhaps near the chamber.  Velocity data would be helpful too.  BHN 15.8 should be good for 2000 fps assuming a cast bullet friendly barrel.

LBD

No leading whatsoever. Groove diameter @ .431. sized to .433. Gas Check. 1 grain polyester filler. Pan lubed. Small section of bullet nose is bore ride lightly engaging the lands. Chamber pressures derived from cross-referencing several different manuals. 45/70 is a completely different cartridge.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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LBD posted this 06 August 2013

OK, now that I'm pretty darn sure you're shooting a 444 (kinda hard to get 35 grains of 4198 in a lesser case) we're getting somewhere. I also hope it's a newer Marlin 'cause that's where my experience lies. Assuming a 300 grain bullet, 0.8” long (WAG) and 35 grains of H4198 with a COL of 2.57", QuickLoad estimates 1690 fps from a 22” barrel and 22.7K PSI.

Based on my dedicated experience with a 444P (new “Ballard” rifling... serious misnomer!), shooting mostly the C430-310 and heavier custom designs, I would either heat treat those BHN 15.8 bullets at 400F to get 'em near 20, or go with a slower powder (my gun loved sphericals in the H335-AA2520 range). I would also ckeck my lube for signs of failing; e.g., greasy muzzle or lube blasted all over the chrony, etc. If I were using something like Javelina, I would try a firmer, tackier lube; i.e., MML or Ben's Red made with reduced oils.

When I was experimenting with 4759 and 340 grain bullets in my 444P, I found that I could push the velocity to about 1500-1600 fps and maintain a respectable level of accuracy. But when I tried to retain that level of accuracy up to about 1700 fps or so, I needed to heat treat. Substituting AA2520 for the faster burning powder blew past 2000 fps with 1.5 MOA accuracy and I was achieving that level of accuracy for 5-shot groups with BHN 14 alloy.

LBD

P.S. Just as a sidebar... my best results with heavy GC bullets (340+) were at about .4320-.4325” on the shank (I tested as large as .434” simply because they would chamber!)  I got very good results at 1500-1600 fps with 4759 and .433” 345-347 grain bullets but when I started to push them harder, they started to shoot better at .432".  My theory is, with the “thin” Marlin rifling (bore/groove diameter on my 444P is .425"/.4305") a smoother pressure curve is required to get a good grip... so to speak.  My gun has the 20” twist, so if you're shooting the 38” twist... well, we've got a whole new set of issues that I'm probably not qualified to address; i.e., no personal experience in that domain.  Anyway, the drastic improvement in accuracy I experienced when substituting a case full of 2520 for a reduced charge of 4759 loosely substantiates this “theory".  For your 300 grain bullet, I would definitely give AA2200 or H335 a try.  8208 and H322 also worked OK with LeeC430-310 but I achieved consistently better performance from the sphericals... especially when loaded to 100%+ density.  Crimping with a Lee factory crimp die is a good choice for holding bullets seated under pressure in place.  Also, using drop-tube techniques aids in the loading process... treat this one as a BPCR package even though you're loading smokeless. :)

One other thing... don't full length resize your 444 brass.  Keeping the head diameter in the .469” neighborhood aids cartridge alignment in the chamber and virtually eliminates the need for trimming due to case stretch.  However, you still need to make sure all your cases are the same length to ensure uniform bullet crimps.

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Pigslayer posted this 06 August 2013

My .444 is a H&R Handi-Rifle. Sized up some bullets to .434 & loaded up 20 of them. They will chamber but they are tight . . . Not real tight but they need a little pressure to chamber. Not worried about a factory crimp die as it is a single shot. Roll crimp is fine. My lube is 1 1/2 to 1 beeswax/Vaseline with 5% each of Carnuba flakes & Ivory soap. Middle of the road for hardness and it is sticky. If I find no change as far as groups falling off after 10 shots then I will drop back to .433 diameter & try pure Lino. Just gotta play I guess. I found that 5744 does NOT give good results in this cartridge. I like the 4198 as the first 10 or so shots are deadly at 50 yds. Also switching from LLA to my homemade lube made a fair difference.

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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LBD posted this 06 August 2013

Pigslayer wrote: My .444 is a H&R Handi-Rifle.

6-groove, 1:20 twist?

Sized up some bullets to .434 & loaded up 20 of them. They will chamber but they are tight . . . Not real tight but they need a little pressure to chamber. Not worried about a factory crimp die as it is a single shot. Roll crimp is fine.

Crimp is not to hold bullets in place during recoil... it's to hold them in place under pressure of compressed load of spherical powder.

My lube is 1 1/2 to 1 beeswax/Vaseline with 5% each of Carnuba flakes & Ivory soap. Middle of the road for hardness and it is sticky. If I find no change as far as groups falling off after 10 shots then I will drop back to .433 diameter & try pure Lino. Just gotta play I guess.

I would rather heat treat COWW to BHN 22 than use pure Lino which has too much Sb by itself.

I found that 5744 does NOT give good results in this cartridge. I like the 4198 as the first 10 or so shots are deadly at 50 yds.

I know purchasing powder is a hit and miss proposition now... do you have anything slower burning than 4198 on hand?

Also switching from LLA to my homemade lube made a fair difference.

Your lube may be getting too slick as internal barrel conditions change.  Try adding more beeswax to a small batch of your existing lube formula to see if that makes a difference and please post your results.  Beeswax will provide the tack you need if your lube is too slick which is my guess because of the large proportion of Vaseline.  I'm guessing you added Carnauba because the lube was too soft during hot weather.

Pat LBD

BTW, I know this isn't a bullet lube thread, but I wanted to discuss how you described your lube, more specifically, the “sticky” attribute you mentioned.  Vaseline is sticky but in no way can it be considered a good bullet lube on its own because it's too slick and low in viscosity. “Tack” on the other hand enables the lube to cling to the barrel which is the reason beeswax and paraffin are such good lube ingredients (when properly blended with a lubricant).  One needs enough tack in their bullet lube so it is not blown out the barrel (big oily lube stars are evidence of this); e.g., when conditions warm up.

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rockquarry posted this 07 August 2013

Very good advice offered in these posts. When I read about suggestions for rifle bullet BHN (though it also applies to handgun bullet hardness) I thought of something I read in the CBA magazine years ago. It was written by the editor Latham. I don't recall the exact wording but the intent of the message was that “the softest bullet that does not lead at the desired velocity level will be the most accurate". While I don't recall, Latham may have mentioned perfect bullet fit, lube, and other factors that go along with accuracy.

Nevertheless, the basic message is still very good advice because it works.

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Pigslayer posted this 07 August 2013

LBD, Gonna try some harder lube too. My lube works really well but at the velocity (1700 fps) I'm shooting that bullet at I probably need something a little stiffer. Actually it's the stearate (ivory soap) that makes for good adhesion.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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LBD posted this 08 August 2013

Pigslayer wrote: LBD, Gonna try some harder lube too. My lube works really well but at the velocity (1700 fps) I'm shooting that bullet at I probably need something a little stiffer. Actually it's the stearate (ivory soap) that makes for good adhesion. So QuickLoad did a pretty good job of estimating your velocity... good to hear.

I wouldn't add any more stearates to your lube.  I've been in soapy bullet lube hell before.  IIRC, you're pretty near the practical limit of soap at 5%.  Much more and you'll have a foamy mess.  Adding heat to homogenize the foam will not only scorch the beeswax but could turn the lube into bullet gel rather than bullet lube; i.e., given enough oil content, (from the Vaseline) you could end up with a gooey, slimy mess.  Before attempting to add more stearates, ask your wife if she's got any panty hose that are ready for the garbage because you may need a fine screen mesh to filter out the lumps of gel.  If you accidentally go too far with the stearates, after straining out the lumps of gel, (or excess soap if you don't get your lube much above 250F) you can still add tack and firm up the lube by adding beeswax.  I wouldn't add any more Carnauba because that'll destroy the lube's flexibility.

That's the last thing I'm going to say about lube here because this is supposed to be an alloy thread... good luck.

LBD

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LBD posted this 15 August 2013

From the '06 today, I shot my MM311-195 at BHN 19 using 11.5 grains of Scot 453 (like 231 or HP-38). The average velocity for 19 rounds (after one fouler) was 1339 fps. Unfortunately, the accuracy was pretty bad although it did improve with more shots in contrast to my experience with Blue Dot and softer bullets (see above) when accuracy held for a few shots then disappeared. I'm thinking either more pressure or a softer bullet is needed. Since I don't want to exceed 1350 fps right now, I'm going to attempt to anneal a few bullets to BHN 16 and repeat the experiment with the same charge of 453.

LBD

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