Slivers of lead on first patch.

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  • Last Post 14 May 2016
John Alexander posted this 04 July 2013

I am familiar with full blown leading when a misfit bullet or trying for too high velocity lets gas past the bullet and plates the bore with lead that is no fun to remove. My experience is that this ruins accuracy immediately and wild shots get wilder if you keep on shooting.

I have been seeing another type of lead in the bore. With some loads I can feel resistance to the first patch part way down the barrel and long slivers of lead come out on the patch, sometime even thin foils of lead. A second patch will usually go through the bore smoothly so the lead seems to usually comes out easily as opposed to the results of real leading.

The strange thing is that the rifle will usually continue to shoot fairly well (not its very best) in my recent shooting the rifle was a 223 shooting an 85 gr bullet over light charges of fast burning powder at between 1,300 and 1,500 fps. The rifle usually averages 5 shot groups of around 1 MOA even when these slivers are coming out on the patch afterwards.

The bullet seems to seal into the throat and even passes the Bill Caffee baloon test so it is hard to see how gas leakage is the cause and if it is why does the lead come out so easily and accuracy stay reasonable good?

Has anybody had this happen? What is the mechanism causing it? What is the cure?

John

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99 Strajght posted this 04 July 2013

I have had that in the past. It is usually my mix. Try a little harder mix or try a little more tin. I know adding a little more tin has always worked for me. 

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R. Dupraz posted this 04 July 2013

I have had the exact same thing happen with my 7.62 mm K-98 Mauser. This rifle is capable of shooting minute ten shot groups out to 200 and sometimes less, when I do everything right.

I cast twenty lbs. at a time and using a Lee tester, set the BHN between 12-15. Everything else remaining the same, I think it has something to do with that particular batch of alloy. Other than that, no clue.

RD

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badgeredd posted this 04 July 2013

99 Strajght wrote: I have had that in the past. It is usually my mix. Try a little harder mix or try a little more tin. I know adding a little more tin has always worked for me.

I've found that adding a bit of tin to bring the tin/antimony ratio close to a even balance seems to eliminate this type of stripping/leading in small caliber bullets. Too hard of an alloy without the balance has also given me the same leading in larger diameter cast when I try to drive them a bit faster than the 2200 fps range.

Edd

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RicinYakima posted this 04 July 2013

FWIW, I had this happen and upon investigation, it was the edge of the base of the bullet being scrapped off during gascheck seating. The lead was hidden in the lube in front of the gascheck, and getting blown into the space between the end of the case neck and leade. Like the others, adding more tin to the wheel weights made the alloy more mallable and it stopped scrapping, chipping, flaking off when seating gaschecks. When pushing a patch down the bore, I think the patch is absorbing the lube residue, then you feel the lead grabbing the lands.

Ric

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.22-10-45 posted this 05 July 2013

John, I had Fred Leeth make up two identical nose-pour 55gr. copies of the Ideal #22636..one a plain-base, the other gas-checked..I had him make g.c. shank a bit longer to allow scrapings to collect. Now neither of these bullet lead in proper loads in my Hornet..but no matter the alloy or lube, there are very tiny lead specks on first patch thru with the plain-base bullet. None are found when using the g.c. version. I do impact coat bullets using the NECO steel ball/moly process..and there is a slight tightness of first patch going thru, but Hoppe's solvent removes this with regular cleaning.

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onondaga posted this 05 July 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

John, did you really polish that bore yet? If you have done everything else, are positive on your fit, then polish your bore. I don't think the amount of tin in your alloy means squat if your bullets fit and your load level is within the ultimate compressive strength of your alloy. If you are going to polish, try my method:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8364&forum_id=63>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

The lead coming out so easily is a sign to me that your bore is pretty smooth already and your cleaning and bullet fit and lube are pretty optimized or the lead would stick harder. Don't chemically clean your bore and leave the metal open and naked or the lead will stick harder and worse. Polish that bore slick .

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 06 July 2013

Thanks to all for the substantial discussion.

I will try each of the suggestions and try to have the discipline to only try one at a time so maybe it will be clear which one or which combinations will solve the problem.

If this testing is successful it may move the understanding of CBs a tiny bit closer to tested guidelines and tiny bit away from the opinions we sometimes have to depend on.

This short thread is a good example of how much advice based on experience can be be focused on an issue. I hope additional folks will post their experiences if there are other possibilities not mentioned yet or other experiences that support one of the approaches already mentioned.

Thanks.

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 06 July 2013

interesting that col. harrison mentioned this ... mysterious ... leading with plain base bullets ....way back in his 1958 review of cast bullet behavior ... funny, he didn't mention the cure for it, either .... ( g )


fwiw ...during the 6 or 8 years i shot serious ara 22 rimfire .... with plainbase lead bullets .... a similar ( first patch ) leading was common ... some barrels required occasional cleaning ... some others were never ” lead-de-scrubbed ” ... no breakthrus from that experience ( g ) ...

the good news is that we haven't run out of projects ...

ken

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RicinYakima posted this 06 July 2013

I believe this, and 22 RF slivers, are mechanical in origin and not related to firing / land engagement. FWIW, Ric

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John Alexander posted this 06 July 2013

I am shooting a bullet with a relativity small amount of driving band for the weight/length of the bullet in a quick (1 in 8".) The bullet has a slightly oversizes gas check shank so some, maybe 10 %, of the gas checks do shave tiny amounts of lead. I can feel it when it happens and also see the lead in the dark LBT lube in the groove. So I could just set those aside and shoot them independently from the ones that the gas checks slip on easily and see what was to be seen.

John

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RicinYakima posted this 07 July 2013

When I did that in a 1903 NRA Sporter, no slivers in the lube but no better accuracy, but I just shot 4 or 5 ten shot groups. I haven't worried about it since in my military match rifles. On a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet, it doesn't seem to make any difference. It may on your 22. HTH, Ric

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Chickenthief posted this 28 October 2013

Leading can happen/start as early as in the throat!

If the bullet is shorter than the throat, gas will escape around the bullet in its path from brass to rifling.

To learn more than you ever thought possible buy and read the book: “Jacketed performance with lead bullets” by Weral Smith.

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John Alexander posted this 29 October 2013

Chickenthief:

I agree that Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets by Veral Smith is a good book and contains much useful information. I read it when it first came out many years ago and a few times since. However, I don't remember that Veral discussed the type of lead on first patch event being discussed in this thread. This is not the usual leading as I explained in my first post.

If I have missed it in Veral's book please tell which page it is on.

Thanks.

John

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bushranch posted this 29 October 2013

I have had small lead flakes happen with the 30-30 when using softer bullets with faster powders. It was always there but never more , just showed up on the first cleaning patch. I felt the gas check in the proceeding round cleaned it up and what I was finding was the lead flakes only from the last round fired before cleaning so no concern about buildup.

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Dirtybore posted this 21 January 2016

This last summer I had much the same thing happen while shooting a 170 gr Lyman #31141 bullet in my 30-30. After 3 rounds, the patch would come out full of ribbons of lead.

I have since shipped the mould back to Lyman due to the mating faces not perfectly matching up. I haven't heard back from them yet. I shipped the mould before Christmas and e-mailed an inquiry last week.

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Brodie posted this 21 January 2016

John, I have experienced this “sliver” leading in my 38/55 Stevens M44.  The alloy is COWW and Plumbers lead 50/50 or 1:1.  The load is 8 gr. Unique with a 250 gr. Lee plain base bullet seated out so that the rifling engraves the nose upon chambering.  I have also seen the same TYPE of leading in a charter arms 44 bull dog (early first model with the squeezed in barrel) shooting a 265 gr. pure lead bullet with 7.5 gr. of Unique.  In that case accuracy did not deteriorate.  In fact it was the most accurate load I ever used in that pistol. I had no trouble keeping above 95 at 25yd slow fire. 

It seems to me that the lead must be stripping some how.  I know that this is the case in the Charter Arms bull dog,  but I question it in the 38/55.

Just some more data for you to cogitate with. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 January 2016

i have always thought it was most likely due to the ” little space ” ahead of the case neck ....

for instance, say the chamber neck is 0.380 for a 35 cal cartridge ... and the case is trimmed 0.050 short ...there is a ring-gap of 0.380 dia x 0.050 just ahead of the end of the neck .....then when the ignition pressure squishes the 0.357 putty/bullet into all available spaces ....it fills this little ring groove .....a little later the bullet decides to move forward into a 0.360 throat entrance and the little ring is torn off .... about 0.010 thick, it seems ...if this groove is filled for the next shot, it doesn't tear off quite so much ....so we can keep shooting and maybe not notice any real problem ... especially with 2 moa groups ...


some chambers are throated with a taper from the case neck o.d. .... and then there are the breech-seated plain base .... do these two configurations leave that little lead ring ?? and little lead flakes down the barrel ??

ken oh, my 6mm super-rook will have a chamber neck of 0.243 ...heeled bullet ... so there won't be any little ring groove ... it will be almost breech-seated ... hey how come everybody else isn't building super-rooks ??? what could go wrong ...

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Dirtybore posted this 12 May 2016

Last year I was shooting a Winchester model 94, 30-30 using the Lyman #31141 mould and was also getting those long ribbons of lead out on the first patch. It didn't appear to hurt accuracy but certainly didn't help it either. at first I was shooting heat treated wheel weight bullets and later tried quenched wheel weight bullets. It didn't change a thing.

I eventually found that mould was not matching up properly and shipped it back to Lyman. They shipped me a new #311041 mould and as of this date, I've only shot quenched wheel weight bullets in it and the same thing has taken place.

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onondaga posted this 12 May 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7944>Dirtybore

” They shipped me a new #311041 mould and as of this date, I've only shot quenched wheel weight bullets in it and the same thing has taken place." You got the same result because you didn't address the problem. Both of those molds cast the same diameter. You have not verified bullet diameter for the rifle. Cast bullet diameter is very individual to rifles. The most common reason for the type of leading you have is that an undersized bullet is wobbling down the bore and being sliced up by the rifling.

You will not progress toward accuracy or stop leading until you fit bullets to the specific rifle and load level.

Do you have  a clue how to do this? Do you need help?

The cause may be simple or complex. Your casting technique may not include casting for maximum diameter methods and your bullets could be small in diameter because of that. Shiny bullets are undersized compared to velvety looking bullets with maximum fill-out. Casting thermodynamics and casting cadence control that.

Lyman makes that mold to be cast with Lyman #2 alloy for best fill-out. Your alloy has no where near that amount of Tin for good fill-out. Switching to the right alloy and a casting method for maximum diameter could make your bullets .002” bigger and end your problem.

Your bullets are big enough when  a dummy round with an inked bullet chambers easily and shows marks on the bullet from contact sliding into the chamber. Any smaller than a bullet showing with ink proving fit decreases accuracy potential and increases leading potential.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 12 May 2016

Dirtybore, Gary has given excellent advice for curing conventional leading caused by poor bullet fit where the lead build up ruins accuracy but has missed the point of your question about  slivers of lead on the first patch being discussed in this thread.  In spite of Gary's good general advice for conventional leading, it will not cure your “slivers of lead” event.  In effect, it is a solution to another problem but not yours and isn't likely to cure yours.

If you have read the initial and following posts in this thread and my article “When is Leading not Leading” in the Fouling Shot about three years ago you will you will see that a lot of good shooters, including some shooting sub-MOA aggregates in competition sometimes see these slivers of lead that don't seem to affect accuracy.  I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation for them.  My experience is that better bullet fit, #2 alloy, more tin, or other things that may cure regular leading don't seem to have an effect on “slivers".

The advice I got from experienced shooters was to ignore them if you are getting good accuracy.  I have won some matches with loads that produced slivers using that advice. 

I hope someone solves what exactly is causing this type of event.  Someone may have already but if so I haven't seen it.  In the meantime if it works don't monkey with it.

John

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onondaga posted this 12 May 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander,  

My response is theoretical because our bullets don't have cameras to document the slivering of bullets.

The rifling in a bore can either slice slivers off a bullet or can burnish grooves into a bullet. The most control we have over that is alloy selection and load level when the fit of the bullet can be taken for granted as a good fit.

Fit is of first importance for accuracy and stopping leading. The slivering type of leading is from slicing of the bullet by the rifling. The lead will slice if it is either too soft or too hard for the load level and undersized bullets exacerbate the effect. The shooters that don't believe this have not offered a more plausible answer.

Some see this theory as unproved. I see it as a practical solution that works for me and many other successful cast bullet shooters that have nice groups and no leading at all. For me, the answers are verified completely within chapters 8,9, and 10 of Modern Reloading 2nd Edition by Richard Lee. I have re-created Lee's testing and proven Lee's theories on alloy selection by load pressure and consider them the best guideline. Lee assumes good fit, and shooters that don't know what good fit is or how to achieve good fit will not benefit from Lee's theories on alloy selection related to load pressure.

I  see both regular leading and slicing as a symptom of ignoring Richard Lee. Following the guidelines of Lee in chapters 8,9, and 10 will solve the OP's leading with bullets that fit correctly and match the load level. It is obvious from what the OP has written, he as tried none of what works as outlined by Lee.

Gary

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Dirtybore posted this 12 May 2016

Onondaga, the #31141 though a 170 gr FN bullet was not the same bullet. The mould block halves did not line up correctly so it cast out of round. The new #311041 line up correctly so it casts a round bullet.

The #31141 bullets being our of round often wouldn't chamber at all. At times, the ogive portion was contacting the lands and being too large the lever action couldn't squeaze the bullets into the lead. The new mould casting round bullets so far have always chambered.

The #31141 mould was dropping bullets that measured the following: Ogive portion .304” turned 90 degrees and it measured .303” The bullet boddy measured .312” and turned 90 degrees, measured .315". I trried sizing to .309” but that didn't help due to the bullet being out of round.

Lyman replaced that mould with a new #311041 mould. So now I'm back to square one.

I understand that Lyman makes their moulds to the specifications of their #2 bullet metal but that doesn't preclude the use of wheel weight alloy. If it did, most likely half of the bullet casters would be out of business or having to order Lyman #2 alloy.

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onondaga posted this 13 May 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7944>Dirtybore

"The #31141 mould was dropping bullets that measured the following: Ogive portion .304” turned 90 degrees and it measured .303” The bullet boddy measured .312” and turned 90 degrees, measured .315". I trried sizing to .309” but that didn't help due to the bullet being out of round." Did you try this bullet un-sized?, will it chamber? If yes, Shoot it. The barrel will size it round.  If it doesn't chamber use the largest bullet sizing die that will allow chambering and pass the ink mark slide mark test..

If you are serious about shooting cast bullets in 30 caliber, consider the Lee Lube and Size kits for the whole range of thirty caliber from .310-.314". Also the Lee bullet sizer dies are easily honed to specific diameters.

Your .309” bullet sizing die is useless for 30 Cal lever rifles. 30-30 chambers don't go that small. .310” is usually small for lever rifles too. .311-.313 is common for lever rifles, but in any case, the biggest that will chamber has the highest accuracy potential.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 13 May 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7944>Dirtybore

How large of a sample do you use in measuring your bullets. 20 bullets is a reasonable minimum and will point out if you have a variance related to casting method. Many molds are sensitive to how you hold them and will produce wide variation without a strong grip on the handles and clean molds. This will show up in a 20 consecutive mold drops of bullets or more and be much more truthful than it is with just 5-10 bullets.

Your out of round should be checked by an expert and your mold should be too. Starrett Micrometers accurate to 1/2 of 1 thousands of an inch work great. Digital and analog calipers are insufficient for bullet measuring and seldom are accurate to .001".

So, I am questioning your measuring accuracy and your measuring tool quality and your sample group size for measurement.

Gary

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Dirtybore posted this 14 May 2016

John Alexander, I remember your article, “When is Leading not Leading,” and read it with great interest.

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Dirtybore posted this 14 May 2016

Onondaga; I believe I had that mould checked by an expert. I sent it back to Lyman along with 5 of the out of round bullets. They shipped me back a new mould. I'm sure they would have checked the mould and the bullets before shipping me a new mould.

I suppose I'm remiss in my bullet measuring technique. I measured 10 rather than the prescribed 20. should I have sent 20 instead of 5 to Lyman with that mould?

You could also be correct about my micrometer. It's a Reed Small Tool Works, of Worcester, Mass. USA that my dad used while he was a Millwright. He gave it to me in 1973. Knowing my dad, he didn't use junk tools, even when he was a boat wright. If and when the boat shop couldn't get good tools, they made them themselves. A case in point were chisels and caulking irons. Dad ended up making chisels, caulking irons, and caulking hammers for the boat shop because good ones were unavailable.

At least the micrometer doesn't say, Black and Decker or made in Japan.

When I get around to it, I plan on making a chamber-lead casting of the forward portion of the chamber, throat, and lead area. That will tell me precisely what it's dimensions are.

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