Anyone Shooting 200 Grain Cast in .38/40?

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  • Last Post 21 October 2016
Little Debbie posted this 20 July 2013

I just acquired a Win 92 in .38/40 with pristine bore and only have a 200 grain .40 cal mold. Anyone using 200 grain bullets and care to give me some advice/starting loads? I cannot find any data.

Thanks

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onondaga posted this 20 July 2013

Well it will certainly work with a case full of black powder or BP substitute.

Best start is get your bullets fitting first. A chamber throat casting will give you the ideal bullet diameter to size your bullets. It is best to work that out before you load anything cast.

Chamber Casting Alloy:

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chambercastingalloy.htm

Gary

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Ed Harris posted this 20 July 2013

Also depends on head length and shape of bullet. With most 200-gr. .40 cal. pistol bullets, when seated deep enough to feed through the Winchester 92, the base band may be below the neck, depending upon how much your dies set back the shoulder.

I have not loaded the .38-40 for the 92, but many revolvers of this caliber have very sloppy chamber dimensions and the shoulder blows forward a 1/16th inch or more upon firing, in a manner like the .303 British “trench” chambers.

This results in a shorter neck, and excessive working of the brass in resizing, resulting in short case life, unless you adjust your sizer to back off a bit from contacting the shell holder, resizing no more than necessary to restore easy chambering and proper bullet fit.

This takes some experimentation. Same situation occurs iin varying degrees with the .44-40, but not as bad as in some .38-40s I've seen, which is why I haven't messed with them much in the last 25 years or so...

The 92 is strong enough it's hard to get into much trouble until you get really stupid. In absence of specific 200-grain data, revolver charges listed for the Colt single action with 180-grain bullets should be safe enough for 200-grain bullets in the 92.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 20 July 2013

Dies used to be guilty of pushing the shoulder way too far back for the two '-40s; I don't know what they are up to now. My 20 years old LEE 44-40 set is spot on for a 191x New Service.

I should have the data from Ken water's article on the caliber, using a similar rifle; ... need to dig it up :).

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mckg posted this 21 July 2013

Alright, so Mr Waters only tested 180gr bullets, loaded at 1.6 in (jhp's) and 1.55 in (Ohaus 40170, now RCBS); all in a 24 inches mod 92 Winchester.

Hornady 4th edition Reloading Handbook lists 200gr J-bullets in the pistol section, tested in a 6 1/2 Blackhawk (1.59in OAL): Unique: 6.4 to 9.2grs AA9: 11.1 to 14.3grs 2400: 11.5 to 14.5grs IMR4227: 14.4 to 18.5grs All starting loads are given at 800 fps, all max are given at 1100fps. SR4756 and Solo 1500 are also listed.

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Little Debbie posted this 21 July 2013

Well the bad news is my 200 grain RCBS .40 mold doesn't want to feed from the dummies I made up. The good news is I found a Lee 175 grain TL mold I forgot I had from years ago when I was going through my .40 S&W /10mm phase.

Thank you guys for all of your research and time in responding, I was feeling a little lost, but have a solid start now. I'll let you know how it goes.

Matt

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Ed Harris posted this 21 July 2013

With the 175 Lee TL 5 grains of Bullseye or Trail Boss, 5.5 of W231 or 6 grs. of Unique are safe starting loads in the Colt Single-Actions. You could increase these up to a full grain in the '92 or the Colt New Service with no trouble. I never got #2400 to burn well in charges I felt comfortable shooting, that were not straining the Colt New Service revolver.

Revolver velocities should fall in the 750-850 fps range and in the '92 work in the range of 1000-1200 fps for best results.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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onondaga posted this 22 July 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5364>Little Debbie

"Well the bad news is my 200 grain RCBS .40 mold doesn't want to feed from the dummies I made up."

Put Ink or mayonnaise or some of each on the bullets on another few dummies and determine if length, diameter or point shape is hanging up on feed . Figure where the hangup is and start again. It may just be the particulat point will only feed with a particular LOA. That is a common problem. Ignore the book LOAs and get some to feed.  This will not cause a pressure problem by shortening LOA if you are shooting light loads. 

Seat your bullets shorter till they feed Then check again with safety question if you are concerned. Give load data including LOA  and projectile length and case length. A picture would also help.

You may have to ignore the crimp groove and seat a lot deeper to get that longer heavy bullet to feed, This is OK with cast bullets, but still crimp your brass into the bullet lightly.

Gary

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badgeredd posted this 22 July 2013

I've been shooting the Ideal/Lyman 40143/401043 bullet in my Uberti Low Wall. As said above watch your set up on the sizing dies to minimize working the shoulder area of the fired cases. This bullet is dropping at 175 grains with the alloy being 25% COWW and 75% pure lead. I crimp into the crimp groove The bullets are sized .001” over the groove diameter of the bore. My best load to date is 9 grains of Unique.

Edd

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marlin3855 posted this 30 August 2013

I use 14.5g 4227 with mine, shoots really well and has a fair bit of knock down power for CLAS pistol calibre.

Dave

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Little Debbie posted this 30 August 2013

Thanks guys for a couple of new ideas. Still working with my new to me 92, going slower than I had hoped.

Matt

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Little Debbie posted this 27 September 2013

An update on the .38/40. Found a forgotten Lee .40 caliber 175 gr truncated FP TL mold I had. Cast a bunch of bullets with my bullet trap scrap which is pretty soft. Bullets weighed 181 grains. Tumble lubed twice with 45-45-10, no sizing. Primed cases with WLR primers before I realized all data recommends LP primers. Will try that next. They measured .401. Fired 100 W-W factory loads for brass. Gun was zeroed for 150 yards, POI at 50 was a little more than 3 inches high. Groups (5 rounds) at 50 yards with the factory 180 gr soft point averaged 3 inches, 100 7 inches, and minute of rock at 200 yards. Recoil was mild.

As Ed Harris suggested I loaded with 5 grains of Bullseye. Crimped in the top TL groove behind the driving band. Dummies cycled very smoothly through the action. At 50 yards windage was good, POI was 3.5 inches high, just like the factory ammunition (later turned out to be zeroed for 150 yards) So far so good. At my home range I fired a 20 round group at 50 yards that measured 2.5 inches, but the rifle started mis firing, discovered I had a broken firing pin. My last eight shots were fired by manipulating the firing pin for each shot to make the rifle fire. Did a total teardown and cleaning when I replaced the firing pin, including removing the Marble's tang sight. The paper shim under the left side of the base was so fragile it disintegrated when I touched it. Reassembled the rifle without the shim and the rifle shot about 1 1/2 inches to the left! Re-shimmed it with a piece of manila envelope and regained zero, pretty cool. Planned to shoot 10 rounds out of the magazine today so loaded the rifle up and fired five rounds at 50 yards. Knew they were hitting the trap, but couldn't see any holes (didn't take my spotting scope) couldn't stand it so I went and looked. The lower groups shown was those 5 shots, 1.5 inches. I fired the 2nd five and got the upper group 2.25 inches. I knew I shouldn't have looked. Don't know if it was the magazine feeding caused this or changing positions, maybe a combination. Anyway thanks for all the suggestions, feels good to get this old rifle to shoot with cast better than factory ammunition.

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badgeredd posted this 27 September 2013

It looks like you've found a decent load. I really like 9 grains of unique behind the Lyman 40143 or the RCBS 40-170 TC. I'd like to get a 200 grain bullet to try out eventually. In my Low Wall it is a fun shooting round.

Edd

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M3 Mitch posted this 21 October 2016

<user=207>Ed Harris wrote: “Also depends on head length and shape of bullet. With most 200-gr. .40 cal. pistol bullets, when seated deep enough to feed through the Winchester 92, the base band may be below the neck, depending upon how much your dies set back the shoulder. I have not loaded the .38-40 for the 92, but many revolvers of this caliber have very sloppy chamber dimensions and the shoulder blows forward a 1/16th inch or more upon firing, in a manner like the .303 British “trench” chambers. This results in a shorter neck, and excessive working of the brass in resizing, resulting in short case life, unless you adjust your sizer to back off a bit from contacting the shell holder, resizing no more than necessary to restore easy chambering and proper bullet fit. This takes some experimentation. Same situation occurs iin varying degrees with the .44-40, but not as bad as in some .38-40s I've seen, which is why I haven't messed with them much in the last 25 years or so... The 92 is strong enough it's hard to get into much trouble until you get really stupid. In absence of specific 200-grain data, revolver charges listed for the Colt single action with 180-grain bullets should be safe enough for 200-grain bullets in the 92."

I think many die makers, particularly RCBS, will adjust the sizing die (for a nominal fee or for free) if you send them the dies and a few (I think 3) fired and unsized brass empties.   For a revolver it might be good to send all 6 chambers.  I guess the die makers can tell you what they need.

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