Crimping a RCBS .310 Heel bullet

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  • Last Post 17 September 2013
Jeff Michel posted this 08 September 2013

I've been doing a considerable amount of experimenting with a Martini Cadet lately and most of the information I have been able to dig up doesn't address the crimping of heel style bullets. It seems most folks thumb seat them and let the Alox coating coating hold them in place..... I'm not too keen on that as the bullet are easily pulled from the casing with my fingers. I have a 125 grain flat point mould on the way from CBE and would like to be able to crimp as these are going hunting and don't want to suffer bullets falling out of the case, getting stuck in the breech and the like. Any guidance would be appreciated.

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mckg posted this 09 September 2013

britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/ has a sticky in reloading; I haven't read it though. You can also use their search function, Let us know how it works.

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onondaga posted this 09 September 2013

Try a larger diameter bullet that doesn't depend on lube type for neck tension at all. Hope you didn't order your CBE the same size diameter. Crimping is not a remedy for small bullets. Crimping enough to grab an undersized bullet significantly increases the risk of gas jetting and accuracy loss from the bullet deformation.

A change in alloy and a modification of casting method can usually increase bullet diameter .001” or better.  If you are casting COWW or range scrap, going to Lyman #2 and changing your casting cadence faster for higher mold temperature and velvety or slightly frosted bullets will bring them up over .001” in diameter.

45:45:10 tumble lube is not tacky like LLA, goes on thinner, dries clear  and is more preferable to me.

Seating depth is also very relative to bullets sticking too. All your concerns so far are addressable, work at them and ask questions.

Gary

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RicinYakima posted this 09 September 2013

When Joe Gifford and I were working with the 310 Cadet for The Fouling Shot article, we simply pushed the case up into a 32/20 full length sizing die until it was required to use a seating die to seat the bullet. It takes a lot of fiddeling, but works. It is not “crimp” but will hold the bullet fairly well. FWIW, Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 09 September 2013

In the .32 S&W Long for use in my Army and Navy C.S. Rook rifle which John Taylor relined and rechambered for me, I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die for .32 S&W Long / H&R Mag. to crimp the heeled bullet. It does take some fooling around to get the correct setting, but it shoots well. These are 50-yard groups, with quiet, subsonic loads, using the RCBS .310-120 heeled bullet for the .310 Greener in .32 S&W Long brass, 6X Unertl small game scope.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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argie1891 posted this 09 September 2013

please explain how you get a bullet of .321 or so to go into a crimp die as the die was smaller than the bullet it pushed the bullet into the case so it would not allow the case to enter the chamber. the case being smaller than the bullet I couldn't make it work. I did try crimping with a wire stripper of the correct die and that didn't work either. but as ric says we just push the bullet into the case either with our fingers or I can use a 9mm seat die. the advantage of the 9mm die is it is big enough that the bullets don't stick in the die. I have found that the bullets without crimp shoot very well. I have a hard time getting to shoot mine as my grand daughter grabs it first thing and shoots all my ammo. not that I mind. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Ed Harris posted this 09 September 2013

I ran my bullets through a .316 sizer.

Using unsized bullets don't use the seater die at all, just press the heel into the case mouth with your fingers until the stop shoulder rests against the case mouth, then bump it slightly in the factory crimp die.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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argie1891 posted this 09 September 2013

yep I seat most of them just with finger pressure when my fingers get sore I use a seating die. ok you size .316 I don't think that would work well as my 310 cadet has a bore of .321. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Jeff Michel posted this 09 September 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I ran my bullets through a .316 sizer.

Using unsized bullets don't use the seater die at all, just press the heel into the case mouth with your fingers until the stop shoulder rests against the case mouth, then bump it slightly in the factory crimp die.

If I understand correctly. You would be creating a slight roll crimp beneath the shoulder of the bullet. If so, this is what I'm striving for. I have been trying an RCBS taper crimp (.32 acp) but the bullet shoulder is pressed out of existence or being forced into the case. It is definitely holding the bullet securely, but I'm reducing the diameter of the bullet at the same time.

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Ed Harris posted this 09 September 2013

You understand my explanation correctly. I don't use the regular seater die with unsized bullets at all, just the Lee Factory Crimp.

If bullets are sizaed to .316 then I can seat and crimp normally at the top of the heel, below the shoulder, using a standard (though 30 year-old) RCBS .32 S&W Long seater.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 09 September 2013

You understand my explanation correctly. I don't use the regular seater die with unsized bullets at all, just the Lee Factory Crimp.

If bullets are sized to .316 then I can seat and crimp normally at the top of the heel, below the shoulder, using a standard (though 30 year-old) RCBS .32 S&W Long seater.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 09 September 2013

You understand my explanation correctly. I don't use the regular seater die with unsized bullets at all, just the Lee Factory Crimp.

If bullets are sized to .316 then I can seat and crimp normally at the top of the heel, below the shoulder, using a standard (though 30 year-old) RCBS .32 S&W Long seater.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Jeff Michel posted this 09 September 2013

Excellent, I will order one directly. Thank you for everyone's input.

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JeffinNZ posted this 12 September 2013

I have used a .303 British Lee factory crimp die and insert the .310 Cadet in the TOP of the die holding the round upside down. I made a spacer on the lathe to govern the depth.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Jeff Michel posted this 14 September 2013

A bit off topic but still of use to some. I just took delivery of a CBE mould. It is a two cavity, brass with two different bullet styles. A 120 grain round nose and a 125 grain flat point. Pretty marginal piece of equipment, regretfully. The mould blocks were out of square, enough to allow finning to occur on the base of one bullet and on the nose of bullet in the other cavity, about.004 thick if I measured correctly. Both cavities, burrs, lots of burrs. The alignment pins were steel but the mating holes were not lined, just holes in the blocks. This in itself may not be a problem but, all the other non-ferrous moulds I possess have a steel insert. I have since reworked the mould to the point that it will cast usable projectiles. I have since acquired RCBS's version of the .310, as recommended by Mr. Ed Harris in an old but related thread. It has worked flawlessly both in castability and in actual shooting. Please don't interpret this as unmitigated complaining, it is meant as more of a precautionary tale. Historically, they have had an excellent reputation. It is my understanding that the company recently changed hands and this may be partially to blame.

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DavidC posted this 16 September 2013

Jeff, I must apologise that you are not happy with the mould. I must say it might have been nice for you to email me first before posting here, anyway what's done is done. I'd like to ask about the blocks and the burrs though, I take some time to try and ensure the blocks are square and that you cannot see any light through them when closed. They certainly appeared ok when the mould left here. Every mould and every cavity I hand finish, just as JIM Allison taught me. I am very surprised you found any burrs at all. Regarding the alignment pins, CBE moulds as far as I am aware, have never had steel sockets for the pins, that can be seen on the website photos. I am looking to find a supplier of matching pins and sockets, as that is a change I would like to make myself, but have had no luck whatsoever yet. I know I could make my own, but I work a full time job as well, and time is of the essence to me.

I would like to offer to you a full refund however, as I would prefer everyone to be happy. Even though the mould has now been altered, warranty does not apply, however, I am still prepared to give you a full refund if you wish to send the mould back to me.

Your choice, and again, I am sorry the mould did not meet your expectations .

Regards, David Commens Cast Bullet Engineering.

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Jeff Michel posted this 16 September 2013

Mr. Commens, I appreciate your comments and thank you for your offer of refund. I too, apologize if my posting offended you. It was not my intent to air any grievances in a public forum to malign or embarrass nor do I feel I have. I have never went back to a manufacture for any replacement or adjustment following a purchase. This is why I did not notify you of my concerns. I had bought it, made alterations as I saw fit and have every intention of keeping it and using it. My posting here was, as I stated in my prior post. A single experience that I had, nothing more. Any reader can choose whether the statement provides information necessary before making a purchase or discounting it entirely. Seldom is feedback from consumers entirely good or entirely bad. Your customer service, as your post will alluded, is excellent and seemingly unconditional. The things I observed and adjusted were in fact small and quickly set right. I have the luxury of a complete machine shop at my disposal, but many of the people on this forum do not, hence my posting. You possess a unique product line of bullets that are of immense benefit to the shooting fraternity and I have no doubt of your's and CBE's continuing success. Sincerely, Jeff Michel

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DavidC posted this 17 September 2013

Jeff, Thank-you. I suppose you could say any negative feedback or comments is always going to be embarrassing. The trick will be to learn from it and improve, and as you would imagine, I will spend more time on the little things and try and improve the moulds even moreso now.

I Thank you for bringing it to my attention, and I hope I can market an item shooters will be happy to own and use.

My offer will still stand should you not have confidence in that mould in the future.

Regards, David Commens Cast Bullet Engineering.

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JeffinNZ posted this 17 September 2013

On the subject of the Cadet mine has always given me fits with smokeless powders. I have the CBE 320-120 and 323-125 and neither will shoot over smokeless powder. I get severe leading with ANY powder. Over a charge of Swiss 3Fg and a small H4227 kicker they both shoot incredibly well and the burn is so clean the bore is shiney after firing. The heels of both bullets measure .310 nominal in 40-1 alloy.

Only very lately I finally clicked that maybe my heels needed to be fatter. I made a little swage die and using my arbor press I have bumped the bullets such that the heels are now .314-.315 and the bands .325 inch. I trimmed one case short enough that the bullet will just engage in the throat when seated and do not size the case - hand seating only. The results are MUCH better. Not as good as the duplex load but getting there.

Out of interest the other evening I seated a 320-120 into the case as if it were a regular bullet. That is a .319-.320 driving band INSIDE the .310 Cadet case and behold, it chambered just fine. I am going to open up the swage die some more to get the heel out to .318 and try again.

The factory loads I have are loaded with the cupped base bullet and that cup is probably enough to compensate for the heel. It may also be my chamber is oversized.

Cheers from New Zealand

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argie1891 posted this 17 September 2013

it would be boring without the custom mould makers. the ability to order designs that are not marketed by rcbs, lyman or saeco keeps our sport interesting. I have several cbe, nei lbt moulds and must say they make our guns shoot to their potential. ok maybe not that good as I don't think I am good enough to shoot to the potential of the all the rifles I own. but if all we had was the major players to buy from there would be no .316 or other diameters to play with. I thank the custom guys argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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