Blown Guns at SASS Matches

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Bryan Austin posted this 16 January 2019

Folks are starting to list a few, seems to be quite a few Lightly Loaded Squibs, Henry Chain Fires and a few double charges.

https://www.sassnet.coms/index.php?/topic/283467-blown-guns-during-sass-matches/

What are your experiences?

Mine...I have a few squibs when I first started CAS but never refired........got fed up and started shooting them as God intended!!

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Chargar posted this 02 February 2019

I have been loading since 1959 and have never blown up a gun. About 1990, I took a flyer and bought a new fangled progressive press and loaded about 1K 38 Special rounds. When I fired one of them, the recoil told me something was amiss. No doubt the pressure was up there. The revolver was a 1931 Colt Officers Model and no damage was done. 

I sold the press down river and continue to peer into each case before the bullet is seated. No problems before or since. There was a lesson here for me and perhaps for others. 

 

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M3 Mitch posted this 02 February 2019

Agreeing with Dale, that article that Ed dug up is great.  Note, also, how even a relatively minor deep seating of the bullet almost doubles pressure on a normal load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye.  Deep seating could occur if you let bullet lube gum up your seating die.  Should not happen, but if it does happen, clean things out, use less lube, drill a bleed hole, do something, just be sure to break down any ammo where the bullet is seated over deep. 

Worth noting that automatic pistols need adequate case neck tension or the feeding cycle can push the bullet deeper into the case, and you can't see it unless your intuition prompts you to eject that round and look at it.  Worthwhile to test your auto loads by pushing them against a bench or similar, and push good and hard, try to push the bullet back into the case, if you are not a circus strongman, you should not be able to push it into the case.  There is probably a more scientific way to go about this but I don't know it, would be grateful to anyone who posts up a better way.

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M3 Mitch posted this 02 February 2019

You know, and I am just saying what works for me, take it or leave it - I don't even own a loading block.  I must have 100K rounds of brass all told, and empty brass, if it's not in a bulk container of some sort, is in MTM boxes, open end down.  I have seen guys with hand-held measures going around a loading block.  Most people who do this don't have double charge or no charge problems.  I'll just say that this procedure does not appeal to me and I think that, for me, it would be error prone. Anyway, again, regardless if I am using a 310 tong tool or my 450 Dillon - powder gets dropped, and a bullet is placed into that open case.  This works for me, I drop exactly one measure of powder, then I plug up the hole with a bullet so another one can't get in.  If someone tries to interrupt me, I ignore them till the bullet is seated, if the powder has been dropped.  If I am not on the Dillon, or a turret press, the primed, belled brass is head up and mouth down in an MTM box right up to the instant I drop powder.  Knock on wood, I have not had any double charge or no powder events. 

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Dale53 posted this 01 February 2019

Ed;

In spite of my heavy interest in this problem, I had never seen that article by Hercules. I mentioned that I had read the American Rifleman's article after the H.P. White tests but that illustrated article of yours, above, REALLY illustrates the problem. It is the best I have seen,

Thank you, for sharing this with us! This again reminds me why we are so fortunate to have you and your personal experience and expertise amongst us!

Dale53

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BigMan54 posted this 01 February 2019

I just read through the complete thread on the sasswire. I was struck by a comment made by one "contributer". He stated these blow ups were caused by  bad reloads.

I don't believe there is such a "bad reload". I believe that there are the products of Bad Reloaders. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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RicinYakima posted this 01 February 2019

Stupid OHV Olds and Chevies are just a passing fad.

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jchiggins posted this 01 February 2019

Yep, just like shaving the heads on your flathead V8 Ford.

I haven't worried about that since 1960.  Flatheads were my specialty.  Man, we're getting old. 

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Bryan Austin posted this 31 January 2019

Ed that seems consistent with what I have seen. I do believe 95%, if not more, of old west gun blow ups are from double charges or  an under charged load causing the bullet getting stuck in the barrel followed by another shot causing a high pressure blowup/out.

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RicinYakima posted this 31 January 2019

Yep, just like shaving the heads on your flathead V8 Ford.

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Ed Harris posted this 31 January 2019

Here is some info on double charges in .38 Special

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Dale53 posted this 31 January 2019

When I got active in local PPC matches, the Star Reloader was the most poplular progressive press out there although their were others that were quite useful. Police departments often had a designated reloader for the department. During a PPC match, it was not uncommon, with lots of people shooting on the line to hear the normal "pop, pop, pop" then a BANG! You absolutely KNEW that "Bang!" was a double charge. The common 2.7 grs. of Bullseye with wadcutters was used a LOT! The quick reload required on some stages were a round nosed bullet with another light load of powder. A double charge would not blow up a K-frame revolver but did get your attention. However, enough new shooters with NO reloading experience got into the game. They, of course, HAD to have a progressive loader. Put a progressive loader in the hands of CLUELESS shooters, and suddenly guns began blowing up. The NRA commisioned H.P. White to try to find out what was causing the blow ups. They DID find out (a double charge PLUS deep seating of the bullets) raised the pressures to somewhere north of 60,000 psi and destroyed revolvers, right and left.

The lessons learned were remembered when IPSC got popular. However, IPSC shooting also had their share of blow ups but not nearly so much as the PPC problems, as I remember.

The same thing happened AGAIN, when SASS became popular. New shooter/reloaders with NO CLUE about proper reloading procedures. The interesting thing was that, by that time no one seemed to remember the NRA reporting on PPC. So, all of the speculation began all over again. Progressive presses were blamed for the problems instead of the real cause - the operators.

Full confession:

I have had one SUSPECTED double charge in my .32 H&R Mag Smith Model 631. I was rabbit hunting with a friend (shotguns), and the friend shot a rabbit (around the edges). The rabbit came near me and sat down. I pulled my 631, and put a S&W Long topped with a 98 gr. RCBS SWC through the slats, settling the issue. However, I knew by the report and increase in recoil that I had loaded a double charge. Since the original load was reasonable, and in the "magnum revolver", no damage was done. However, I took it to heart and rigged up a better light so I could see down in the case when loading. I also made certain that I "looked" at each loaded case just after the powder dropped.

I also re-examined my loading procedures and realized that the most dangerous time is when starting up the press after an interruption (biggest problem was failure to drop a charge at this point). Distraction was limited and followed. In other words a "new protocol" was developed the minimize the dangers.

During my IPSC years, occasionally my two young sons, who also were taught to run the Dillon, would discover a round without powder (once or twice). That was corrected. Neither I, nor my sons, lost a single point during the five years we shot IPSC and ran matches. I probably shot in fifteen or twenty matches a year. Counting practice, I shot 75,000 rounds in five year period of .45 ACP alone (full charges). My two sons, together probably shot about half as much.

A couple of years ago, my youngest son was visiting, and we, together decided to load some .38 Specials for he and his wife. Remember me mentioning distraction, well, when starting up the press after a break, I, while loading and talking to my son, failed to put in a charge in a case.

So, progressive presses are NOT the problem, but "lack of experience", distraction and/or improper "protocol" CAN be a problem. That is correctible.

The worst "accident" that I have had in 69 years of shooting, bullet casting, and reloading, was with Military factory 30'06 in a O3A3. The ammo had been given to me by a friend who neglected to tell me he had had serious problems with the ammo. I believe it was the third shot fired. The case split from the primer hole to the outside of the case dumping the whole charge through the action. Particles of brass blasted my face and would have absolutely blinded me had I not been wearing safety glasses. It looked like I had been shot in the face. It drew blood but I was able to pick the brass from my face (with help) and did not require hospitalization. So, everything is relative. 

P.S. This FACTORY ammo was very old (but looked to be in very good condition) corrosive ammo. After my problem (and another friend had been gifted some of this ammo with the same results) we did a little research. We learned that that ancient ammo had a bad past. Either of us could have lost our vision. I did have a talk with the original gifter and we still remain friends to this day. I chalked up his failing to youthful ignorance.

Keep safe, friends!

Dale53

 

FWIW

Dale53

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R. Dupraz posted this 31 January 2019

 

1.  A Dillon electronic scale

2.  Hornady single station press

3..  A dowel of appropriate size to fit mouth of case and marked with a line at the mouth of the case when charged

4.  Hornady AP progressive press with a powder cop die in the station following the powder measure

    Mind set that the Hornady is actually five single station presses put together and operating it as such

    Not pumping the handle with reckless abandon.

5.  Uninterrupted attention to detail

6.  When it is, check everything before and after the interruption or attention lapse and restart

 

ARE MY FREINDS 

   

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Brodie posted this 31 January 2019

The only time I have used a loading block was several years ago when I was fire forming 22/250 cases into

6.5Creedmore.  I only had one powder measure and I would load the cases put them in the loading block and after they were all done fill them to the bottom of the neck with cream of wheat, then a TP plug was stuck in the neck and tamped down.  All but one fire formed successfully the first time.  The caliber was new, and it was during the Obama component shortage when you couldn't get any thing.  I still use the cases, but right now I have no idea where that plastic block is.

B.E.Brickey

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BigMan54 posted this 25 January 2019

I still use the old Flambeau Twin-60 case blocks. After charging cases I step outside and check in the strong light. At night I use a flashlight.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Eutectic posted this 25 January 2019

I caught several mistakes using a loading block to charge cases. This worried me that I might miss one (or a whole line) sometime.

Now I use two loading blocks: Cases mouth down in one block, lets you check all the primers. Powder measure is solidly mounted, (it works better) charge case move it to the other block repeat as needed. I set the bullets on the case mouths and look as I do this, then feed them into the progressive for seating, crimping and final Lee Factory crimp die with no crimp insert.

Takes longer but the peace of mind is worth it!

Steve

 

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Bryan Austin posted this 19 January 2019

 I ran a test today. For those that use light loads of Unique...if a double charge is missed....

Today I tested 12gr of Unique in my 44-40 MGM 1 1/4" diameter 20" "testing" barrel.

200gr Magma 
5 Shots, 2 1/2" Group @ 100 yards
1,635fps 21,786 psi, That could be upwords to 25,000cup, which is mid 44 Magnum pressures with a 200gr bullet.

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BigMan54 posted this 19 January 2019

I single stage load all .32 cal & the rare Hot load for Handgun. And all Rifle.  Much the same way Frogperson does. The 9mm to .45Colt get finished on the Progressive. 

Except I expand case mouths before priming. Cause if the case mouth is gonna split, it's gonna do it when the case mouth is expanded. Why chance wasting a primer. I size/decap, expand & then prime. Then the cases go to the Progressive for powder, bullet & crimp.

All loads on the Progressive are light, but still listed in the LYMAN CAST BULLET HANDBOOK #4.

That little flashlight makes the difference. And my Safety Glasses have good strong bifocals. 

Garage Doors are closed & locked, a Do Not Disturb Sign is Posted. The music is loud enough to block out most noises. 

Even on the Progressive I load in lots of 50 or 100. And loading in small batches helps me load carefully and not crank like a maniac.

And that Clone that blew up on me. Nobody that was at the match in NV with TZ bothered to tell me that TZ had blown up his Rifle at that match.

Only time I ever had  problem in 60+yrs of loading. Except for the occasional Bloopers My DAD liked to "slip" into his boys Trap shell pouches on non-match wknds.

Something I never did to My Kids. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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RicinYakima posted this 19 January 2019

"The point is, the reloader needs to pick a strategy that works for him and stick to it!  No distractions must ever be allowed to creep in and every step must be done in order and consistently.  There is no one, safe, perfect strategy, each of us must develop and follow the one that works best for him."

Wise words, Frogperson, wise words.

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Green Frog posted this 19 January 2019

When I am doing any non-progressive reloading I have found I'm most comfortable using the method Ed described.  I like to batch load, so I deprime and size a bunch, then hand prime about 50 to a batch, then I bell them all and place them in a loading block.  Next I use my chosen powder measure of the day and charge the whole batch in the block.  I religiously take the next step friend Ed described, using strong light I look into each case to see that the level of powder is the same in every one.  Then I pick them up one at a time, insert a bullet, then seat and crimp.  Of course I use a variation on this when I'm breech seating for Schuetzen... I skip the belling step and after the cases are all charged I seat my over powder wad, mainly to keep the powder from falling out in transit.  excited

The point is, the reloader needs to pick a strategy that works for him and stick to it!  No distractions must ever be allowed to creep in and every step must be done in order and consistently.  There is no one, safe, perfect strategy, each of us must develop and follow the one that works best for him.  I even had a well meaning, fairly new shooter see me in my case charging step and helpfully tell me how dangerous it was to do it that way.  Fortunately, another grey beard shushed him before I got distracted (and upset) and I was able to continue my loading. cool

 

Froggie

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Bryan Austin posted this 18 January 2019

I have been waiting for someone to post that!!! 

 

Exactly!

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