Blown Guns at SASS Matches

  • 1.5K Views
  • Last Post 02 February 2019
  • Topic Is Solved
Bryan Austin posted this 16 January 2019

Folks are starting to list a few, seems to be quite a few Lightly Loaded Squibs, Henry Chain Fires and a few double charges.

https://www.sassnet.coms/index.php?/topic/283467-blown-guns-during-sass-matches/

What are your experiences?

Mine...I have a few squibs when I first started CAS but never refired........got fed up and started shooting them as God intended!!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
RicinYakima posted this 16 January 2019

One: primed and belled cases go neck down and primer up in a loading block.

Two: pick up case and turn upright, drop powder into case, look to see it is there.

Three: IMMEDIATELY put bullet into case and seat bullet.

I have had two un-powdered cases in 52 years of reloading and no double charges. The other key that if anyone comes into the room, that case gets turned upside down back into the empty block. No radio, no TV, no visitors while powdering and seating bullets. FWIW

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 16 January 2019

Frank Marshall, Giorgio and I all figured out that when loading the fast-burning pistol and shotgun powders, the correct charge is one in which an accidental double charge will not blow up the gun, but may indeed lead the barrel, blow the primer and otherwise give you a good scare, getting your attention, but one in which your eyeballs, well protected by glasses, and all of your fingers remain intact.

Case in point, doubling the infamous 13 grains of Red Dot in the .30-'06 with 160-grain GC drops the primer and requires application of a dead blow lead hammer to open the bolt, but did not blow-up a sound Remington 03A3. 

Ditto for the famous 16 grains of #2400.....fired in the same rifle!!............. Headspace remained OK, and shot better afterwards because both lugs then bore evenly. Much easier than lapping the lugs, but absolutely not recommended practice!

Ditto for 12 grains of Unique in an 1884 Trapdoor with #457193.  DID bulge the chamber, turned a nice shooter into a wall hanger which is hanging now on a restaurant wall in Upperville, VA.

IMPORTANT SAFETY TIP!!!

NEVER load at the range when people are liable to ask you stupid questions and distract you from your task!

One I cannot take credit for personally in loading the ammo, but one in which I fired the Ransom-Rested .45 is 4.2 grains of 700X with the H&G#68.  Double charged shot dropped 4" low out of the 2" group at 50 yards and gave about 1200 fps.  Blew out the magazine bottom, spring and follower, but Joe White's Clark wadcutter gun was undamaged and he took it to Camp Perry.  REALLY glad it was held in Ransom Rest, because blowing the grips off when you are holding onto the gun is most unpleasant.  Took a guy to the ER who did that same summer.  Cured me of using progressive loaders observing other's snafus.

I love the RCBS Little Dandy.  I love strong rifles and RUGER reevolvers. I got rid of my black powder era ones.

I treat my Colts gently and charge one block of 50 cases at a time and visually inspect every one of the little boogers with a penlight and compare against its Brothers.

OK, you'all have heard MY confessions, let's hear yours.

 

 

 

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

BigMan54 posted this 17 January 2019

I used to have a nice pair of Cavalry twill pants that were ripped along with my leg when the Lady Shooter next to me at a SASS EOT Team Match had a .357 Clone blow up in her hand.

This was back in 1989, her Husband had loaded the ammo on a brand new dillon. I saw a lot of guns blown up in my first 10 yrs of Cowboy Action Shooting. 

Way too many people learning to reload on dillons with no experience/ no instruction. Just a recipe from someone and off they go, reloading as fast as they can. NOT EVEN a RELOADING MANUAL.  Saw a man blow up a rifle on his first reloaded round. He THOUGHT the dillon came factory adjusted for his load !!!

I even lost one of my own clones. To someone who's revolver busted, do to a "Shade Tree Mechanic" type of action job. I loaned him a Uberti .45 Colt, I gave him a box of ammo to shoot in My gun.He thought my loads were too heavy, After AGREEING to Shoot ONLY my Ammo in My GUN. My ammo was .45Colt with a 230grTC over 6.0grs of WW231. 

His was 5.0 grs of Red Dot over a 200gr RNFP. Way too light, and that blasted sliding aluminum bar on dillons crappy powder measure, probably stuck. Gave a charge and a half, or double.

Saw it more then once. Eventually one of the reasons I gave it up. People moving to .38's, even .32's lighter loads. Changing the rules from a .38spl std 855fp "Police" load as a minimum. To NO minimum. Rule book thrown out the door.

Wasn't fun after 22 years. I reached a point of thinking, next time I'll just bring my Buntline and reach out and tap the pistol targets. Wouldn't have to waste powder & lead that way.

Load faster & lighter with less attention. 

Great Sport ruined by greed & idiots. 

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

Attached Files

longhunter posted this 17 January 2019

When I was shooting SASS and NCOWS I loaded a full case of Black Powder in all my guns.

44-40, 44Colt and Shotgun.  It is the correct powder for the Cowboy era! Never a problem.

Jon

Jon Welda CW5 USA Ret.

Attached Files

Ed Harris posted this 31 January 2019

Here is some info on double charges in .38 Special

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Attached Files

M3 Mitch posted this 17 January 2019

I use the same routine as Ric, I seat a bullet IMMEDIATELY after dropping powder.  Knock on wood, I have loaded good ammo with my old Dillon 450, here again the way the machine works, I drop powder, cycle the primer gizmo, push the lever back up to bring the loading stage down, seat the primer, pull out the finished round, turning the case holder rotor, bullet goes into the charged case, an empty fired case goes into station #1, lever goes down again, repeating the process.  My own idea about using the Dillon is that I am not really trying to load 450 rounds per hour, more like 150-200, and while I may have a radio going in the background, yeah, I am paying 99% of my attention to loading.  Knock on wood, have had no double charges and no empty rounds with no powder either.  You also have to look up and around periodically, make sure the powder measure is not about to run empty, etc.  To me, the only downside for the Dillon is that it takes quite a while to change from one round to another, particularly if you are changing primer size.  For that reason my other various turret presses still have plenty of "job security".  Probably my favorite "short run" press is the old Lee Turret, it easily changes from one caliber to another.

IMHO, people who get in trouble with a progressive are either trying to go too fast, and/or not really paying attention.  Same dog that bites them with motorcycles and cars. 

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bryan Austin
  • Bud Hyett
David Reiss posted this 17 January 2019

These errors mostly happen when people get distracted loading and are caused from double loads or missing powder followed by another round without clearing the barrel. We had very strict rules when loading at the PD and only a handful were allowed do the loading. Before there were powder checker dies, we rigged mirrors on progressive machines to help with powder issues. 

I'm with Ric and his suggestions. Have followed them in my 42 years of loading. No double charges and can't think of a powderless one. That goes for personal and PD loaded rounds. 

However when I was 18 and started loading (first day) with a Lee Loader, I loaded 6 so light (overly cautious beginner) my first time just to check them, they all stuck in the barrel! No real damage, but I thought I was a really bad shot. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bryan Austin
  • Ed Harris
MarkinEllensburg posted this 17 January 2019

I once blew apart the grips on a 1911 and the magazine out. The remaining two or three cartridges were firmly wedged in the bottom of the mag. It was with a cast 230gr. RN and 700x powder. Still not sure of the exact cause. The round didn't chamber all the way into battery and I as taught tapped the back of the slide. I still have the ruptured case and it is in a prominent place on my loading bench as a reminder as to the serious business at hand.I can attest to how unpleasant it is to have such occur. I had little splinters on my hand and  powder burns on my face. The pistol on the other hand for a while sported a set of Pachymayrs but was just fine. Sadly years later it was stolen from my truck while at a secure hazmat loading facility; turned out that they didn't really have very good security.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bryan Austin
  • M3 Mitch
Brodie posted this 18 January 2019

This is why they came up with Trail Boss.  It fills up those large capacity cases and doesn't rock the shooter back on his heels, or raise the sights off the target. 

B.E.Brickey

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • RicinYakima
  • Bryan Austin
Green Frog posted this 19 January 2019

When I am doing any non-progressive reloading I have found I'm most comfortable using the method Ed described.  I like to batch load, so I deprime and size a bunch, then hand prime about 50 to a batch, then I bell them all and place them in a loading block.  Next I use my chosen powder measure of the day and charge the whole batch in the block.  I religiously take the next step friend Ed described, using strong light I look into each case to see that the level of powder is the same in every one.  Then I pick them up one at a time, insert a bullet, then seat and crimp.  Of course I use a variation on this when I'm breech seating for Schuetzen... I skip the belling step and after the cases are all charged I seat my over powder wad, mainly to keep the powder from falling out in transit.  excited

The point is, the reloader needs to pick a strategy that works for him and stick to it!  No distractions must ever be allowed to creep in and every step must be done in order and consistently.  There is no one, safe, perfect strategy, each of us must develop and follow the one that works best for him.  I even had a well meaning, fairly new shooter see me in my case charging step and helpfully tell me how dangerous it was to do it that way.  Fortunately, another grey beard shushed him before I got distracted (and upset) and I was able to continue my loading. cool

 

Froggie

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Ed Harris
  • M3 Mitch
RicinYakima posted this 19 January 2019

"The point is, the reloader needs to pick a strategy that works for him and stick to it!  No distractions must ever be allowed to creep in and every step must be done in order and consistently.  There is no one, safe, perfect strategy, each of us must develop and follow the one that works best for him."

Wise words, Frogperson, wise words.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Ed Harris
  • M3 Mitch
BigMan54 posted this 19 January 2019

I single stage load all .32 cal & the rare Hot load for Handgun. And all Rifle.  Much the same way Frogperson does. The 9mm to .45Colt get finished on the Progressive. 

Except I expand case mouths before priming. Cause if the case mouth is gonna split, it's gonna do it when the case mouth is expanded. Why chance wasting a primer. I size/decap, expand & then prime. Then the cases go to the Progressive for powder, bullet & crimp.

All loads on the Progressive are light, but still listed in the LYMAN CAST BULLET HANDBOOK #4.

That little flashlight makes the difference. And my Safety Glasses have good strong bifocals. 

Garage Doors are closed & locked, a Do Not Disturb Sign is Posted. The music is loud enough to block out most noises. 

Even on the Progressive I load in lots of 50 or 100. And loading in small batches helps me load carefully and not crank like a maniac.

And that Clone that blew up on me. Nobody that was at the match in NV with TZ bothered to tell me that TZ had blown up his Rifle at that match.

Only time I ever had  problem in 60+yrs of loading. Except for the occasional Bloopers My DAD liked to "slip" into his boys Trap shell pouches on non-match wknds.

Something I never did to My Kids. 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Ed Harris
  • M3 Mitch
Dale53 posted this 31 January 2019

When I got active in local PPC matches, the Star Reloader was the most poplular progressive press out there although their were others that were quite useful. Police departments often had a designated reloader for the department. During a PPC match, it was not uncommon, with lots of people shooting on the line to hear the normal "pop, pop, pop" then a BANG! You absolutely KNEW that "Bang!" was a double charge. The common 2.7 grs. of Bullseye with wadcutters was used a LOT! The quick reload required on some stages were a round nosed bullet with another light load of powder. A double charge would not blow up a K-frame revolver but did get your attention. However, enough new shooters with NO reloading experience got into the game. They, of course, HAD to have a progressive loader. Put a progressive loader in the hands of CLUELESS shooters, and suddenly guns began blowing up. The NRA commisioned H.P. White to try to find out what was causing the blow ups. They DID find out (a double charge PLUS deep seating of the bullets) raised the pressures to somewhere north of 60,000 psi and destroyed revolvers, right and left.

The lessons learned were remembered when IPSC got popular. However, IPSC shooting also had their share of blow ups but not nearly so much as the PPC problems, as I remember.

The same thing happened AGAIN, when SASS became popular. New shooter/reloaders with NO CLUE about proper reloading procedures. The interesting thing was that, by that time no one seemed to remember the NRA reporting on PPC. So, all of the speculation began all over again. Progressive presses were blamed for the problems instead of the real cause - the operators.

Full confession:

I have had one SUSPECTED double charge in my .32 H&R Mag Smith Model 631. I was rabbit hunting with a friend (shotguns), and the friend shot a rabbit (around the edges). The rabbit came near me and sat down. I pulled my 631, and put a S&W Long topped with a 98 gr. RCBS SWC through the slats, settling the issue. However, I knew by the report and increase in recoil that I had loaded a double charge. Since the original load was reasonable, and in the "magnum revolver", no damage was done. However, I took it to heart and rigged up a better light so I could see down in the case when loading. I also made certain that I "looked" at each loaded case just after the powder dropped.

I also re-examined my loading procedures and realized that the most dangerous time is when starting up the press after an interruption (biggest problem was failure to drop a charge at this point). Distraction was limited and followed. In other words a "new protocol" was developed the minimize the dangers.

During my IPSC years, occasionally my two young sons, who also were taught to run the Dillon, would discover a round without powder (once or twice). That was corrected. Neither I, nor my sons, lost a single point during the five years we shot IPSC and ran matches. I probably shot in fifteen or twenty matches a year. Counting practice, I shot 75,000 rounds in five year period of .45 ACP alone (full charges). My two sons, together probably shot about half as much.

A couple of years ago, my youngest son was visiting, and we, together decided to load some .38 Specials for he and his wife. Remember me mentioning distraction, well, when starting up the press after a break, I, while loading and talking to my son, failed to put in a charge in a case.

So, progressive presses are NOT the problem, but "lack of experience", distraction and/or improper "protocol" CAN be a problem. That is correctible.

The worst "accident" that I have had in 69 years of shooting, bullet casting, and reloading, was with Military factory 30'06 in a O3A3. The ammo had been given to me by a friend who neglected to tell me he had had serious problems with the ammo. I believe it was the third shot fired. The case split from the primer hole to the outside of the case dumping the whole charge through the action. Particles of brass blasted my face and would have absolutely blinded me had I not been wearing safety glasses. It looked like I had been shot in the face. It drew blood but I was able to pick the brass from my face (with help) and did not require hospitalization. So, everything is relative. 

P.S. This FACTORY ammo was very old (but looked to be in very good condition) corrosive ammo. After my problem (and another friend had been gifted some of this ammo with the same results) we did a little research. We learned that that ancient ammo had a bad past. Either of us could have lost our vision. I did have a talk with the original gifter and we still remain friends to this day. I chalked up his failing to youthful ignorance.

Keep safe, friends!

Dale53

 

FWIW

Dale53

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
  • RicinYakima
RicinYakima posted this 31 January 2019

Yep, just like shaving the heads on your flathead V8 Ford.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bud Hyett
  • M3 Mitch
RicinYakima posted this 01 February 2019

Stupid OHV Olds and Chevies are just a passing fad.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
  • Bud Hyett
Bryan Austin posted this 16 January 2019

Ed, the makes sense since most SASS shooters load very light. I think most post that I read are cause by lightly loaded double charges that bulge barrels and pop out botls and levers while under loaded loads squib the barrel and a second fire blows out the side and lever guts.

Sounds like a pattern?

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
750k2 posted this 17 January 2019

I like how you lapp your lugs

Knock on wood I've never doubled but had some squibs with 820 and low bullet pull.

But then I have never done anything but load on a single stage and one round at a time.

Prep and prime all my brass then charge and seat before I charge another - always took

more time but works for me but I don't shoot high volume sporting events.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bryan Austin
Bryan Austin posted this 17 January 2019

I have decided to load up 5 each 44-40, with 12gr of Unique IN MY 1 1/4" dia TEST BARREL. This will replicate an assumed lightly loaded (6gr) double charge into a heavy 12gr load!. This is also the max used in Lyman's 49th for the 44 Magnum with a 200gr bullet. I am going to shoot these in my strain gauge test barrel and see what kind of results I get. Check back Saturday around noon. If ya don't hear from me by then./......

Ya'll stand back!!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
jchiggins posted this 17 January 2019

About 8 years ago I saw some commercially reloaded 9mm ammunition for sale at a local sporting goods store.  The price was right so I bought a box of 250 rounds.  The ammo comprised different brands of brass, but otherwise looked "normal".  My son & I were at the range one day and i was shooting that ammo in my Beretta M9.  Everything was fine until one round blew the right grip panel off. Surprised me, to say the least!  Being a mental giant, I checked out the gun, put it back together and continued shooting.  After a while another one went off and blew the grip panel off.  Decided those rounds must have been double charged.  No injury to me or the M9, but I will never again buy reloaded ammunition, no matter the source.  Plus, I won't push my luck either.  My son took the remaining ammo and ran it through his Thompson SMG w/o incident.

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • Bryan Austin
Bryan Austin posted this 17 January 2019

Yeap, looks like those pistol powders in large volume cowboy cartridges are eating people's lunches!!

Attached Files

  • Liked by
  • M3 Mitch
Show More Posts
Close