CAST BULLET ACCURACY APPROACHES

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  • Last Post 18 December 2017
joeb33050 posted this 13 December 2017

There seem to be two accuracy approaches under way at CBA matches.

One is the PBB ~1400 fps soft bullet breech seated Miller/CPA action recipe

The other is the hard bullet, ~2000 fps, fixed, scheme.

Either approach has small case = 30BR/32 Miller Short vs. big case = 32-40/308 advocates.

Somewhere in there lurks the "best" concoction that might lead to toppling of the <.5" hurdle.

joe b.

 

 

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John Alexander posted this 13 December 2017

Maybe minor observation -- The theoretical advantages of the small - full case (adopted from jacketed benchrest) are easy to understand but I see that some schuetzen shooters are still using 32-40s and doing well. 

John

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Ed Harris posted this 13 December 2017

I think if you measured the water capacity of .32-40, .30BR, 7.62x39, they might be strangely similar.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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John Alexander posted this 13 December 2017

You may be right Ed. It is a lot longer but a skinny devil.

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Ross Smith posted this 14 December 2017

The CB accuracy seems to be dominated by .30 cal and bigger. Is there a reason for this?

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RicinYakima posted this 14 December 2017

1: Easier to make "perfect" bullets. 2: At the speeds we shoot, less wind drift. 3: We tend to be old guys who like traditional calibers.

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Ross Smith posted this 14 December 2017

Yes I fit the bill.

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joeb33050 posted this 14 December 2017

I think if you measured the water capacity of .32-40, .30BR, 7.62x39, they might be strangely similar.

 They might be strangely similar even absent my measuring. However, that has nothing to do with the point. The 30 BR vs 308; the 32 Miller Short vs 32-40, are symptoms of the "smaller cases are more accurate than larger cases" legend. This legend has no evidence to support it, other than the Ardito experiments; is perhaps as untrue as the much quoted and several-times--disproved  bullet hardness/pressure/accuracy myth.

They both make sense, like the phlogiston theory of heat.

joe b.

 

 

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joeb33050 posted this 14 December 2017

The CB accuracy seems to be dominated by .30 cal and bigger. Is there a reason for this?

Recoil/accuracy is minimized in the vicinity of .30.

Wind drift is driven by, among others, BC. BC is constant with bullet length, given = shape.

Around .30, recoil is acceptable, accuracy is good, bullet length/diameter is reasonable and wind drift is low.

The SS shooters of the past reduced caliber to ~ .32; then the 28-30 came along. WWI slowed Schutzen and development. I've often thought that absent WWI, 28 would be more popular than 30.

joe b.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 December 2017

... after a year or so of trying to develop CONSISTENTLY  accurate cast bullet loads ... about year 1984 ....  i made a very satisfying breakthrough ..

I lowered my requirements for an accurate cast group ... i now think 2 inches at 50 yards will let me enjoy my old rifles and even allows me to use cheap lee molds ... and i have a shelf full of ... gasp ... purchased castings ....  some that shoot 2 moa ...

....... and just to keep my life spicy and full of wonderment, occasionally i find a load that for no known reason shoots 7 inches at 50 yards ....    whether 30-06 or 22 hornet brass capacity ...  

... as soon as i figure out why 14 moa groups come and go i will also set my goals back to 1 moa ...

*************

the strongest argument for small cases is that there are a lot of good groupers using them ... they make " common sense " ...... heh and then there are those pesky tiny 22 rimfires ...   

my fanatical mj benchrest friends tell me the small cases give more consistent ignition ... and specifically the 6 ppc is easier to get a good load ... a wider sweet spot, they claim ..  but then we casters are not loading to 65000 psi as the mj guys do ...

.... and then there is joeb ... and his tests with 6 or 8 barrels in smaller 223 vs. larger 22-250 and 5000 shots recorded ...

***************

i see joeb is going to play with 7-08 ... think i will play with 7-08 also ......  could this be the real sweet spot ?? ...   wonder if i can get a 1.5 moa load ?? ....  anyone else wanna play 7mm ?? ... pope liked them ...

ken

 

 

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45 2.1 posted this 16 December 2017

There seem to be two accuracy approaches under way at CBA matches.

One is the PBB ~1400 fps soft bullet breech seated Miller/CPA action recipe

The other is the hard bullet, ~2000 fps, fixed, scheme.

Either approach has small case = 30BR/32 Miller Short vs. big case = 32-40/308 advocates.

Somewhere in there lurks the "best" concoction that might lead to toppling of the <.5" hurdle.

joe b.

 Now why would you think that? Those are only two of many approaches. Basically, the breach seat guys prove that a bullet started straight down the bore, concentrically, has an advantage over one whose alignment is questionable. A Barlow design two diameter bullet has it's limits due to ALIGNMENT problems (except in some tight bored rifles). Maybe you've found that limitation and do not accept it or you simply don't realize that the current crop of popular designs are somewhat undersize for what you're doing. I can assure you that a properly design bullet has much less limitation in regards to accuracy. Technique is another limitation or advantage depending on what you've picked to shoot: bullet, powder, primer, rifle, etc. All things effect what you do. There are people out there who have solved these problems and they don't participate due to people not listening to what they've learned. There are things supposedly written in stone that are actually written in a very perishable medium.

 

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joeb33050 posted this 16 December 2017

 

Those are only two of many approaches.

I don't see other approaches, please elaborate.

Basically, the breach seat guys prove that a bullet started straight down the bore, concentrically, has an advantage over one whose alignment is questionable.

Breech seat guys haven't proven "that a bullet started straight down the bore, concentrically, has an advantage over one whose alignment is questionable", in any data I've seen.

ASSRA results are fuzzy because of the re-entry tradition. I saw Gerry Ventura shoot the first 200 yard 250 at an ASSRA match, in Alabama NY, in 1988. Since then many have done it, it's almost common today. Something has happened to make ASSRA shooters more accurate. Miller action? Ron Smith barrel? H108 etc?

But! PBB shooters at the CBA NM face the < .5" hurdle, as do the other shooters.

 

 

All things effect what you do.  My experience and experiments suggest that many of the things that cast bullet shooters do have little or no effect on accuracy. Orienting cases is an example.

joe b.

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Ross Smith posted this 16 December 2017

Joe: You seem quite knowledgeable about Schutzen and Harry Pope. Do you believe in loading a single cases at the shooting line or loading ammo in advance?  Thanks, ross

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joeb33050 posted this 16 December 2017

Marlin Bassett once said to me, paraphrasing here, that it would be nice to have a set of loaded cases to shoot when bad conditions turned good for a few minutes. Could be fixed, or primed, charged, cases.

I think a large part of the one-case benefit comes from slowing the shooter down.

I shoot fixed now, otherwise throw the case or primer or bullet into the weeds-old guy shakes.

joe b.

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John Alexander posted this 16 December 2017

Competing with a single case used to be part of the conventional wisdom with a lot of good shooters preaching it as the only way and using it themselves.  That has mostly (but not entirely) died out as multi case users have won a lot of matches.  Ability to shoot quickly to take advantage of a condition that may not hang around as Joe noted and more time to watch down range for condition changes are good reasons not to be diddling around with reloading at the bench for most shooters.

John

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Ross Smith posted this 16 December 2017

Thanks Joe: I find myself walking around the range looking at fired cases on the ground just to see what everyone else is shooting, and slow my self down. The <.5" is in no threat from me. Ross

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joeb33050 posted this 16 December 2017

 

WNYSS

 

VENTURA

1988

ASSRA???

 

GROPPE

1993

ASSRA

BROCKWAY IRONS

PINNEY

1997

BEESON

SEPT 3RD

AMBERGER

1998

BEESON

MAY 26TH

AMBERGER

2000

BEESON

SCHOYEN

EICKOFF

2000

ARIZONA

 

HANKS

2002

ARIZONA

 

HANKS

2002

BEESON

SEPT 3RD

AMBERGER

2003

BEESON

SCHOYEN

McDERMOTT

2003

BEESON

SCHOYEN

ZAHORNACKY

2003

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

BORTON

2004

CHINQUAPIN

JUNE 10 SHOT SCORE

BORTON

2004

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

ZAHORNACKY

2004

ASSRA

SCHOYEN

BORTON

2006

BEESON

SUMM SCHOYEN

BORTON

2006

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2006

BEESON

SUMM SCHOYEN

SCHULTZ

2006

BEESON

SUMM SCHOYEN

VIETZ

2006

BEESON

.25 SCHOYEN 2006??

VIETZ

2006

WNYSS

SCORE FALL

ZAHORNACKY

2006

BEESON

SUMMER

AMBERGER

2007

WNYSS

SUMM SCORE

BASSETT

2007

ASSRA

SCHOYEN

BORTON

2007

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

BORTON

2007

AURORA

POPE CF/BR

EHLERS

2007

ARIZONA

10 BR CF 200YDS????

MASON

2007

SAN DIEGO

NOV SCHOYEN

REAMS

2007

BEESON

FALL 07?? SCHOYEN

REAMS

2007

WNYSS

SUMM SCORE

REYNOLDS

2007

AURORA

POPE CF/BR

VIETZ

2007

ARIZONA

10 BR CF 200YDS????

WEBER

2007

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

ZORIN

2007

BEESON

SCHOYEN

CONROY

2008

BEESON

SCHOYEN

MINIHAN

2008

BEESON

SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2008

BEESON

SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2008

BEESON

SCHOYEN

ZORIN

2008

ASSRA

SCHOYEN

BORTON

2009

BEESON

SPRING SCHOYEN

BORTON

2009

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

McDERMOTT

2009

BEESON

10 SCORE SING ENT FALL

MINIHAN

2009

WNYSS

200 CF SCORE SUMMER

REYNOLDS

2009

BEESON

SPRING SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2009

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2009

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2009

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2009

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2009

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

SCHULTZ

2009

BEESON

10 SCORE SING ENT FALL

SCHULTZ

2009

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

ZAHORNACKY

2009

BEESON

FALL BENCH AGG

McDERMOTT

2010

BEESON

SCHOYEN

McDERMOTT

2010

TACOMA

SPRING

MILLER

2010

BEESON

FALL BENCH AGG

REYNOLDS

2010

BEESON

FALL BENCH AGG

REYNOLDS

2010

BEESON

FALL BENCH AGG

REYNOLDS

2010

BEESON

SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2010

WILTON

MAY 200 YD SCORE

BUZZEO

2011

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

GLEASON

2011

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

GLEASON

2011

ARIZONA

MATCH 4 NOV

HANKS

2011

WNYSS

200 CF SCORE

McDERMOTT

2011

BEESON

SPRING SCHOYEN

MERZ

2011

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2011

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2011

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2011

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2011

WNYSS

FALL SCORE

REYNOLDS

2011

BEESON

SPRING BENCH AGG

SCHULTZ

2011

BEESON

SPRING BENCH AGG

SCHULTZ

2011

BEESON

SUMMER BENCH CHAMP

SCHULTZ

2011

ARIZONA

MATCH 4 NOV

WRIGHT

2011

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

MARTIN

2012

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

MARTIN

2012

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

MARTIN

2012

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

McDERMOTT

2012

BEESON

FALL SCHOYEN

REYNOLDS

2012

BEESON

SPRING BENCH CHAMP

REYNOLDS

2012

BEESON

FALL BENCH CHAMP

WOODRUFF

2012

MODESTO

SCHOYEN 2-9-13

MacHALE

2013

ASSRA 250's

joe b.

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45 2.1 posted this 16 December 2017

 

 

I don't see other approaches, please elaborate. Article in Fouling Shot about very low velocity loads basically sligshoting bullets into 0.3" groups. Done it myself with Browning Traditional Hunters in 38-55 and 45-70 with issue sights ( Lyman type tang site and front bead) at 100 yards (Pope figure eight site picture). Sights at full extension to just zero at 100 yards. Another article showing most all bullets are undersize and effects in groups. There are more as these are in the Fouling Shot! Not all those methods are discussed by the CBA.

Breech seat guys haven't proven  in any data I've seen.

But! PBB shooters at the CBA NM face the < .5" hurdle, as do the other shooters.

I shot a match in St. Louis a long time ago in which one of the owners of Lock, Stock and Barrel was shooting with his granddaughter with a Miller action in 32-40 beach seated. Afterwards he invited us to try it. I had no trouble getting the holes to overlap and I didn't get the bullets seated evenly either. I would say that pressure gets to people and they mess up, but that rifle sure had the potential to shoot bugholes. It can't be the only one out there either.

 Basically Joe, many people shoot really well in practice and not so well in a match.... It's called Nerves and doesn't reflect what a rifle can do, but what the nut behind the butt does when he can't keep his blood pressure down.

 

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joeb33050 posted this 17 December 2017

 

 

I don't see other approaches, please elaborate. Article in Fouling Shot about very low velocity loads basically sligshoting bullets into 0.3" groups.

Would you point me toward the TFS issue?

Thanks;

joe b.

 

 

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45 2.1 posted this 18 December 2017

I've been a member since the early eighties. The article, I believe was in the late eighties. Better than that I can't do. Article was about a couple of guys shooting one of the small 30 caliber rifles very slow.

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