Cast bullets in .17 caliber centerfire rifles

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  • Last Post 08 April 2019
mashburn posted this 11 March 2019

Is there anyone out there who has fired cast bullets in .17 caliber centerfire rifles? I'm not talking about the pip squeak rimfire cartridges, I'm talking about real rifles. I have a .17 Mashburn, which no one except me and possibly a few other old-timers have ever heard of. I built it with the old man Mashburn's shop made reamer. I met a fellow with a .22 caliber black powder rifle a few years back. He was a member of the Arkansas Black Powder Association.. by their rules he had to shoot a patched round ball in competition but his favorite loads were with .22 caliber pellets. It was very accurate. I planned on building one but I have too many projects.

After reading the information on bunny rifles I got very interested and have one under construction. And of course being a .17 caliber fan I got to thinking about the possibility of shooting lead pellets in my .17 and have a unusual variant of a bunny rifle. The .17 Mashburn that I have has about the same powder capacity as a .17 MK IV. The shoulder is 40 degrees and the neck is about .173 thousandths in length, A much hotter cartridge than the .17 Ackley Bee. One tenth of a grain powder increase results in about 100 fps. I ran through about 2.5 lbs. of powder working up the loads that I shoot. If there is anyone who has experimented with something like this or has a interest, I would like to hear any and all comments.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 08 April 2019

Hello delmarskid

That would be a neat little contraption to play with, Keep up the good work. If your neighbor decided to light the world up with too many Christmas lights  I'm sure you could discourage him somewhat Take a look at my info. just above this one and take a look at what I did to shoot pellets in a .357 revolver.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 08 April 2019

Hello Bud,

I did this in reverse. I fired a .172 caliber cast bullet in a pellet gun . It exited the rifle and hit a tree. I was careful to aim at the edge of the tree instead of the middle. Years ago I was down walking around the pond with a pump up pellet pistol. I picked out a little spot on a big pecan tree just about eye level and was going to put a pellet in it. I fired, hit the spot and the .22 pellet bounced back and hit me right in the center of the forehead. OUCH. That's why now if I shoot a pellet gun at a tree, I don't shoot it dead center, I don't want a knot on my head again. The bullet was undersize for the rifle, rifle-centerfire bullets are .172,but I guess I could have done like I did when I was a kid and didn't have any pellets. I would wrap a BB in tissue paper and shoot it in a .20 caliber air rifle. What your doing sounds like a lot of fun. I'll be writing some of my work with the .17 along as I go. Keep and eye on it, I think you will enjoy it. 

I took a .177 caliber air rifle barrel and chucked it up in the lathe and made six pieces that look like .357 cartridges. I made the necks longer so that they would reach even with the front of the cylinder I machined a little chamber for the pellet and machined out a place for a no. 7 1/2 primer. The accuracy with these things at 50 feet or so is amazing in a .357 revolver. I've been intending to make a barrel liner of some sort but never have. I enjoyed your info,

Mashburn

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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delmarskid posted this 07 April 2019

I think a barrel stub fit to go in a single shot shot gun in .177 and a shotgun primer to drive it should be in my next Christmas stocking.

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Bud Hyett posted this 07 April 2019

Shooting pellets in a T/C Contender or centerfire rifle, .22 Hornet or .22 Remington Jet case, with the primer pocket drilled out with a 1/8 inch drill and Remington 7 1/2 primers works well. Simply reprime and set another pellet in the case neck, almost flush, and wait for the next starling. With a good hit, this load will permanently tame starlings, opossums, and other similar-sized vermin. 

Hold the rifle or T/C Contender about a foot back from the window and the slight sound will be absorbed.

SEGREGATE these cases with the enlarged primer pocket. I have two only that reside with my pellet pistol.,  

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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mashburn posted this 07 April 2019

Hello 4570 sharps,

This project is getting well underway. I have a bullet mold, Gas checks, sizing dies and bullets have already been cast. I will be writing up some of the info for the forum in the near future. The biggest problem is that I have five rifles that I am just getting started with to shoot cast bullets. I just need to be younger.

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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4570sharps posted this 07 April 2019

22 caliber is as small as I'll go!

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mashburn posted this 20 March 2019

Hello again,

You got me with that one, WHAT A COME BACK.I didn't write what my first thought for a comeback was, I'll keep that one to myself.

THIS IS A JOKE ISN'T IT??? I have really enjoyed our correspondence.

Thanks,

Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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delmarskid posted this 17 March 2019

Mine is a blue streak in 20. I married that blonde girl. She remembered you.

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Urny posted this 17 March 2019

Thank you for the kind words, David.

Linda got the rifle about '90 or '91 of the last century, and I think the seller, who was a very good older friend of ours, said it was about 25 years old.  Other than that I do not have any dating information, unless it is with the book in Missouri, about 1550 miles away.  Our friend, George Abbeglen, had bought it for his wife Ellie, who had no interest in rifles.  It was a birthday gift, and for his next birthday she bought him a mink stole.  I wish George had kept the original receipts to pass on to me, but he did not.

You are likely correct about cut rifling, that was the practice for the early .17's as I remember it.  Primers we used were RWS small rifle which George provide in a half pint jar, about full with one empty box for identification.  Things were sometimes done differently then.  Think of surplus 4831 in paper bags, the last of which was selling about the time I got out of the Army.  At least, the last of it at Simm's Hardware in Sacramento.

Regards to you and your family.

 

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mashburn posted this 16 March 2019

Glad to hear from you again Urny,

I'm glad you weren't injured. I took Dick Sanders advice and loaded with nothing but Remington #61/2 bench rest primers. I would be afraid to know what the peak primer pressure is when this this thing ignites. I've fired it several thousand times and evidently it is going to hold. I have always been afraid to use any kind of solid bullets.

I don't know when your rifle was made, but when they first started playing with 17 cal barrels I think the rifling was cut. I'm not exactly for sure. I know they had  heck with them  I believe that Remington tried to use cut rifled barrels when they were developing the .17 Remington rifles. I don't try to load mine to the Max. I keep it about 3,600fps.Out of curiosity, what year was this rifle made?

Thanks for your correspondence.

David Cogburn

David a. Cogburn

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Urny posted this 16 March 2019

Good morning Dave,

I believe you are right about something being wrong with that rifle and probably at least two things, maybe three.  One was the visibly rough bore, possibly made when the manufacturer was struggling to master a bore that small.  Another was very likely the powder capacity to the 222 Magnum derived case.  The barrel was only 18" long, and chronographed over an Oehler 33 only managed 3900 fps, give or take a bit.  The standard load developed by the original purchaser used 24.2 grains of a Dupont powder I will not name, given the slippery hold my memory has on reality.  The bullet was the 25 grain Hornady.

We tried a load with the machined 25 grain solid copper bullet from a relatively new company called Bullberry.  Before loading these I had written to Mr Sanders asking what he thought a good load for the new bullet might be, using the same powder as worked OK with the Hornady.  His thought was that 10% reduction might work, but if it was his rifle, he would not do it at all.  I should have listened to that very good advice, but did not.  The first (only) shot with the 10% reduction blew out the extractor and welded the case to the bolt head.  There was no further damage to the bolt or other rifle parts, and after getting the bolt face cleaned up and the extractor replaced, the rifle continued to give groups that were acceptable, but not brag worthy.  The 10% reduction is another possibly flawed figure related to my memory, and the records are not available to me right now.

Sadly, during a time of financial stringency, the O'Brien went away to fund a new engine for a Wagoneer.  There was a good side to that, a story for another day.

Thank you for bringing back these, on the whole, pleasant memories.

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mashburn posted this 15 March 2019

Hello max503,

Everyone needs a little motivation once in a while. My motivation has really been fired since I joined the Cast Bullet Association.  Your shotgun primed idea should add a little extra umppp. A fellow member, David Reiss is loaning me his .17 cal mould, so I should get started with this project pretty soon. I appreciate your info, we should all encourage the others.

Thanks again,

David Cogburn-Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 14 March 2019

Hello Urny,

I appreciated your response. Sanders used to come to Tulsa, Oklahoma to shoots out at the John Zink ranch. In regards to your 17-222 mag It sounds like something was wrong ,maybe too much case volume for the bore, but it sure does sound like it is pretty. My 17 wildcat has about the same case capacity as a 17 MKIV. When I was shooting prairie dogs we would clean our rifles after every 50 shots. All of my rifle barrel bores were pretty slick and I quit cleaning so often. When I started missing 200 yd. headshots I would clean. it is amazing that how well it would hold its accuracy with a dirty bore. It is oh so nice to hear from true rifleman like you and your wife.The barrel I used when I built my 17 was a Sako  pulloff. I can't remember what 17 cal that it was. Speaking of myrtle wood, I have some for a two piece rifle buttstock and forearm. It is myrtle wood burl-very beautiful. It is Sanders book that broke a spring in my brain.

Thanks for your comment,

David Cogburn-Mashburn

David a. Cogburn

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mashburn posted this 14 March 2019

Here we go again. My 17 cal rifle is capable of producing velocities around 3700 fps. I don't load it that hot, I shoot somewhere around 3550 fps. Like I stated earlier, I'm a small game hunter. A squirrel shot with this thing is unusable. When I was younger and could walk long distances over rough terrain we hunted with dogs. I don't walk so well anymore and have to find a likely spot and set down and wait. Distances can be very long. If I can get from, 1800 to 2,000 fps with accuracy that  some 17 hornet shooters are claiming I will have filled the bill. Yes, I have plenty of rifles that will do this but I want to do it with this one, with a feeling of satisfaction that few people ever feel. I will put my knowledge and experience about rifles against anyone. During 7 years in the army my assignments varied from playing ball, shooting on the small bore indoor match team, and having possession of a very accurate .30 cal scoped  rifle that I do not care to talk about..

I think you are entirely missing the point, there are a lot of us out there that are creative machinists.To me, guns are my form of art. I have built not only rifles but several actions in my personal shop. Like the oldtime major league pitcher Dizzy Dean said "if you've done it, it ain't bragging." There seems to be a lot of people who are jealous of these creative people. I can't understand why you joke about casting needle sized bullets. It has nothing to do with what I'm trying to accomplish. I go up to my friends gunstore and watch people put together pretty little colored parts and think they built a custom rifle. Remember, this is a cast bullet forum and we should be trying to learn instead of belittling others who are. I notice you aren't a Cast Bullet Association member.

Mashburn 

David a. Cogburn

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max503 posted this 14 March 2019

I've been wanting to try pellets out of my 22 Hornet, powered by a shotgun primer.  This thread may give me the motivation to do so.  I have pellets on my shopping list.

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Urny posted this 14 March 2019

David,

I corresponded with David Sanders back in those wonderful days, after I ordered a copy of the book, which my wife still has at our place in Missouri.  She had bought one of Vern O'Brien's 17-222 Rem Magnum rifles, beautiful myrtle stock with basket weave carving, rosewood tip and cap, and finish like polished chrome.  As Mr. O'brien used to say, 'the only thing wrong with that Weatherby fellow down in Southgate is his conservative tastes.'  The Krieghoff barrel fouled quickly enough that we cleaned after every five shot group.

The idea of casting bullets for it never occurred to me. 

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shastaboat posted this 14 March 2019

I apologize for insinuating anyone here might be foolish!

Because I said so!

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shastaboat posted this 14 March 2019

I think I remember P.O. Ackley shooting burros in Arizona with a .17 cal and jacketed bullets. Since we both know that cast bullets are limited in regards to velocity and air guns can attain the velocity within those limitations, does it sound prudent to load a powdered and primed cartridge to the same performance?  Air is free!   I've got some sewing needles around here that I'd like to develop a load for and if I can get someone to cut a mold for me I'm sure I can also find someone to build me some gas checks I can fit...lol...just think about this for a minute....

Because I said so!

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mashburn posted this 14 March 2019

Hello David,

Man what a great offer. I would love to borrow your mold but I would want to put up a deposit. You must be one very nice guy, but would your wife agree with me. Of all the people that I conferred with in the short time I've been on the forum, I've only had two that don't seem like someone I would want to be friends with. I'll discuss it with you later by phone.

Thanks,

David

 

David a. Cogburn

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David Reiss posted this 14 March 2019

David,

I have a NOE 172-27-FN mold 2 cavity that cast one PB and one GC. If you would like to borrow it, you are welcome to it. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
- Also deal in: Land, Banjos, Nails, Firearms, Manure, Fly Swatters, Used Cars, Whisky, Racing Forms, Rare Antiquities, Lead, Used Keyboard Keys, Good Dogs, Pith Helmets & Zulu Headdresses. .

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