IMR 4895 in 223 or 22-250?

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  • Last Post 04 January 2017
joeb33050 posted this 24 December 2016

Looking for loads ~ 1500 fps with 40-60 gr CBs.

Thanks;

joe b.

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Larry Gibson posted this 24 December 2016

IMR4895 probably won't burn efficiently, even with a Dacron filler, in either of those cases at such a low end velocity.  Best try would be in the smaller capacity 223.  Start with 14 gr, work up to 16 gr and use a Dacron filler.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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SierraHunter posted this 24 December 2016

One of my all time favorite loads in the 223 is 18gn of IMR4895 with the 55gn CBA bullet. My old 788 shot this load better then any other load, and my current savage also shoots it quite well, but not as well with the faster twist. Not sure what the speed was is on it off the top of my head.

I would not even waste time with cast in the 22/250. Not that it won't shoot good, but the 223 is much better suited for it.

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OU812 posted this 25 December 2016

Joe, I know you have experience using Titegroup which is very good. Have you tried Unique or Bullseye? Faster burning powders work verywell in the 223.

Maybe 4759 will work well also?

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OU812 posted this 25 December 2016

Hodgdon also recommends Clays as a reduced 223 powder. It may burn cleaner than Titegroup, but it is a flake powder that may not meter as well. Most skeet shooters swear it is the best for their needs.

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 25 December 2016

don't forget nostalgic old 4227 .... i at least try it  for 1500-1800 fps loads in the 222 range cases .  hey i still have some 1204 .... color me ancient ...

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 27 December 2016

IMR 4895 has worked well for me in reduced loads in the past.

225646M and 16/IMR4895 in the Iffland-barrel 223 was notably quiet, low-recoil and slow and produced no detectable groups at 100 yards. Maybe 18 grains.

joe b.

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RicinYakima posted this 27 December 2016

IMR 4895 has worked well for me in reduced loads in the past.

225646M and 16/IMR4895 in the Iffland-barrel 223 was notably quiet, low-recoil and slow and produced no detectable groups at 100 yards. Maybe 18 grains.

joe b.

You got a way with words that make me smile Joe!

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Larry Gibson posted this 27 December 2016

Joe

Your original question regarding IMR4895 was;  “Looking for loads ~ 1500 fps with 40-60 gr CBs."

 

In a 223 using 18 gr IMR4895 with a 55 - 60 gr cast will run 1800+ fps out of 20/21” barrels, probably closer to 1900+ fps.  With a Dacron filler 16 gr under a 225462 runs a little over 1700 fps with 2" ten shot groups at 100 yards out of my 21” Contender.  Below 16 gr ignition, even with the Dacron filler, is erratic.  Best low velocity accuracy (Contender barrel) with IMR4895 comes in at 17.5 gr with the Dacron filler but velocity is right at 1900 fps.  H4895 gives a bit better accuracy at a bit lower velocity.

If you can live with more noise and the higher velocity where the IMR4895 will burn efficiently then the IMR4895 may work for you.  However, I have found in over 45 years shooting cast in the 223 cartridge that for 1500 fp loads a fast burning powder such as Unique will give accuracy at 1500 fps along with a quieter report.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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joeb33050 posted this 27 December 2016

Ric, if you think the words are funny, you should see the targets!

joe b.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 December 2016

wonder why the big groups with the 4895 ... shouldn't the assumed poor ignition just string  impacts in a perfectly straight vertical pattern ??  why any sideways dispersion ...? ...

the secret to good groups is in the study of poor groups... right ?

ken

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joeb33050 posted this 02 January 2017

Today with 223, 18/IMR4895, 225646M, 100 yards 5 shots , 5 groups averaged 1.73". Not great, but way better than 16/IMR4895. I think that there's hope hidden somewhere, maybe 19 or 20 gr.

 

joe b.

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Larry Gibson posted this 02 January 2017

wonder why the big groups with the 4895 ... shouldn't the assumed poor ignition just string  impacts in a perfectly straight vertical pattern ??  why any sideways dispersion ...? ...

the secret to good groups is in the study of poor groups... right ?

ken

 

Probably not unless tested at longer range with 10 shot test strings.  What you see on target is just poor accuracy.  In a 30-06 with a 311299 for example starting low with 4895 at say 24 gr you will find large groups that will get smaller as the powder begins to burn efficiently around 29 - 31 gr or around 28 - 29 gr if a Dacron filler is used.

 

The inconsistent barrel nodes caused by an erratic rise to pressure during firing probably contributes to the large group size.  Measuring the pressures and observing the pressure traces in the 22-250 using 55 and 60 gr cast bullets verifies that 4895 does not begin burning efficiently until the velocity is 1800 - 1900+ fps and really doesn't get to it's best burn efficiency until the velocity is above 2400 fps.

 

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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onondaga posted this 03 January 2017

Hodgdon is the powder maker with reduced load recommendations for H4895 with their 60% Rule where they also mention that H4895 loads are recommended down to 50% available case capacity in any cartridge Hodgdon recommends H4895 at all. 50 % is where Hodgdon draws the line for safe ignition with that specific powder. This produces safe loads that are lower than any of the velocities mentioned so far in this topic.

I use H4895 in reduced .458 WM loads and use BPI Original filler for lower ES of velocity and it makes a significance reducing ES of my 57 gr 4895 with a 350 gr FNGC @1700 fps. The ES is ~40% lower with BPI than without BPI. The BPI also meters very well from my Lyman #55 measure with the clapper.

My reduced loads in .223 with H4895 use no filler. I get my BPI direct or from Midway:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb

 

Gary

 

BPI

 

 

 

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joeb33050 posted this 03 January 2017

Joe, I know you have experience using Titegroup which is very good. Have you tried Unique or Bullseye? Faster burning powders work verywell in the 223.

Maybe 4759 will work well also

I've failed to get good reliable < 1.5” accuracy in 223 with Titegroup, IMR4227, Unique, Blue Dot and SR4756. I'm thinking that a slower powder at higher velocity might work. Thus IMR4895, which has worked for me in the past with reduced loads in 30/06 and others.

joe b.

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joeb33050 posted this 04 January 2017

Today with 223, 18/IMR4895, 225646M, 100 yards 5 shots , 5 groups averaged 1.73". Not great, but way better than 16/IMR4895. I think that there's hope hidden somewhere, maybe 19 or 20 gr.

Today, 1/4/17, 223 HV Iffland barrel,225646M, 100 yards 5 shots , 5 groups averaged:

19/IMR4895  1.79", 1st group from cold clean barrel, last 4 groups averaged 1.563"

20/IMR4895, 1.585"

This is in the neighborhood of all my cast bullet group averages over thousands of shots and several barrels.

< 1.5” averages happen, but not reliably.


joe b.

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