Lyman 429421 - tumble lube or FWFL?

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  • Last Post 26 August 2018
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max503 posted this 13 August 2018

I'm making deer loads with this bullet.  Is it possible to get around 1200 fps without leading, using Lee liquid lube?  I shooting these out of a 10" Contender.  I'm thinking of using my lubrisizer and FWFL instead of the Lee lube.  Would I be better off filling that big groove with lube instead of trying to tumble lube?  I do get some leading when using 1cc of Unique - dipped - and I've been brushing the barrel with copper chore boy to clean it out.  That's why I'm thinking of setting up the lubrisizer and digging out the stash of FWFL.

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David Reiss CBA Membership Director posted this 13 August 2018

Before you start thinking the lube is a contributing factor to the leading. Make sure the bullet fits the chamber and bore. Also too small diameter bullets combined with too hard of an alloy, will lead in most instances. 

David Reiss - NRA Life Member & PSC Range Member Retired Police Firearms Instructor/Armorer
-Services: Wars Fought, Uprisings Quelled, Bars Emptied, Revolutions Started, Tigers Tamed, Assassinations Plotted, Women Seduced, Governments Run, Gun Appraisals, Lost Treasure Found.
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max503 posted this 13 August 2018

I thought about that.  Contenders have a long jump between case and rifling - like maybe they aren't built for cast bullets.  There's no way I can seat the bullet into the rifling.  I've used a filler and a gas checked bullet in the past and it seems like that kept the leading down.  I'm bound and determined to use this 429421 bullet.  Maybe some shot buffer filler would help?

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Geargnasher posted this 13 August 2018

Not the answer you were seeking, but a 300-grain WFN should help with the fit.  And given the choice, I will pick FWFL over tumble lube and most (not all) other lubes, every time.  Another option might be to powder coat the 429421 and seat it out far enough that the front band touches something, even if only the base band is in the case.  No additional lube required.  You could also size the bullet to about 1.5 thousandths larger than the bore diameter and paper-patch it (wet), work up a load using non-flowing buffer, and seat it out so the lands just bite the paper curving over the front band.

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onondaga posted this 13 August 2018

Lee LLA tumble lube and Whites Deluxe 45:45:10 tumble lubes do not have a speed limit if your bullets fit the chamber throat ink test. Lube becomes the least critical with a good bullet fit. Tumble lubes are a surface lube and wont flow out of grooves no matter how much you put in there. They don't need to either. Warmed bullets, warmed lube applied sparingly works best. MORE is not better, just messier.

I prefer the Whites Deluxe, it dries clear and tack free in under 5 minutes when applied warm. I shoot it up to 2450 fps with cast bullets that fit a .308 Win. NO LUBE FAILURE and I get a small lube star on the muzzle after 10 shots. For high velocity rifle bullets I follow Lee instructions and apply 2 light coats after size/check. Slow stuff, only one coat.

Whites:

http://www.lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13

A lifetime supply for $17.25

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delmarskid posted this 13 August 2018

Sometimes I use both lubes. They smoke like a steam engine but they shoot okay. I get leading at speeds over 1200 in my 44's using that bullet. I've used it in six different guns. That's just the way it is over here.

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beltfed posted this 13 August 2018

Max.

I shot thousands of full bore 44 mag/429421 loads during my handgun silhouette days. mostly thru a

SW 29 and 29 Silhouette model.  Bullet jump is probably half inch from the end of case to the

barrel throat.  Probably a longer jump than in your contender barrel...

Bullets were sized/lubed .430/ mostly used the NRA formula 50/50 Alox /beeswax

filling that large gg.

Excellent accuracy, No leading even in 80 round championships with no cleaning.

beltfed/arnie

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max503 posted this 14 August 2018

Thanks for the replies.  I need to set up my lubrisizer.  That grease groove is there for a purpose.  Gonna give it a try. 

However, I've got a few bullets already lubed with LLA.  Just for grins I'm going to load those with some shot buffer between bullet and powder.

I've got a GC bullet mold but I'm trying to keep away from that.  We'll see.

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delmarskid posted this 15 August 2018

I've found that I need to shoot over 50 full house plain based bullets before I lose best accuracy. That's a lot of deers.

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max503 posted this 20 August 2018

I have cleaned and set up my Lyman lubrisizer, and reloaded it with fresh Felix lube.  Then I reloaded some more of the 429421 bullets, sized .431, over 10.4 grains of Unique.  With LLA this load leaded.  I'll see what it does with the Felix lube.

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BigMan54 posted this 21 August 2018

I have a 10" Contender bbl in .357 MAXIMUM".

I used to have a .357 MAGNUM 10" bbl.

Big difference.

In the .357Mag, using the #358446 over a HOT LOAD  of 16grs of 2400 I got leading in front of the chamber that lessened as it got closer to the muzzle.   Switching to the #358156GC over the same charge, I got a small bit of leading just in front of the chamber.

Switching to the .357MAX bbl, in .357Mag brass, those same loads leaded the end of that long chamber and accuracy was very poor.

I even tried the #358429 over 14.5grs of 2400, leading the MAXIMUM bbl was really bad. After 20rds I couldn't even  chamber a .357 MAX case. 

Moving on to shooting the .357MAXIMUM Loads. 

Shooting only the .358MAX brass, using the #358156GC & #358446 over 18grs of 2400, leading was reduced to a few streaks just in front of the chamber. Accuracy was much improved when I dropped down to 17grs for the #358156GC. I just dropped the #358446 & #358429. They just weren't as accurate. I tried WIN 296 & H4227 too, but they didn't deliver the accuracy. 

The 10" .357MAX #358156GC blew the chickens off the stands like they were hit with a sledge hammer. 

I also used the LYMAN #358315GC ? on Rams. Sorry can't remember those loads.

40+yrs & 5 Concussions have fouled my memories.

But all this shooting was done with factory sights in the Creedmore position.

I also have a 10" .44MAG, for it I used the #429244GC over 22.5grs of 2400. Had to hit Rams dead center to get them knocked off the base. Size .430, none of the big KEITH bullets with their heavy front driving bands ever gave me good accuracy with full power loads in the CONTENDER in any of those 3 cartridges.  So I never got what I needed out of the #429421. However a softer bullet cast exclusively for Hunting only might give you exactly what you need.                  

 

I DON'T RECOMMEND ANY OF THESE LOADS IN ANY GUN THESE DAYS, SO TRY THEM AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The Gas Check bullets worked better for me. Cast of #2, sized .358 with an old style LYMAN Slip On gas check. Lubed with my Dad's 50/50 plus lube. I wish I remembered that recipe. LYMAN 450 Lube-Sizer & dies.

SORRY to be so long winded.

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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max503 posted this 21 August 2018

Thanks Big Man and everyone.  I shot the 10.4 Unique loads yesterday and quit after 3 shots!  Leading was heavy and accuracy was poor.  

My original load with 1cc of Unique leads a little in front of the chamber but it stays very accurate for a good number of shots.  

"none of the big KEITH bullets with their heavy front driving bands ever gave me good accuracy with full power loads in the CONTENDER in any of those 3 cartridges."

This is what I'm finding out.  It looks like my choices are to 1) Stay with a mild load with the 429421, or 2) Go back to using a GC bullet.  Now that my lubrisizer is up and running I can easily go back to shooting a GC bullet.  I was hoping the Felix lube would be an improvement over the LLA with this load\bullet but that is not the case.

Just have to make my decision and do my homework before November hunting season gets here.

Thanks everyone for the help.  Good thing range time is so much fun.laughing

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Larry Gibson posted this 21 August 2018

Max503

I've shot thousands of 429421s in numerous revolvers, rifles and 2 Contender barrels.  I found for the Contender barrels bullets sized over .430 leaded the throats similar to what you describe.  I believe the problem being the throats on both barrels have been .430 diameter with a fairly sharp edge from chamber to throat. Groove diameter is .429 on both barrels. I believe the larger bullets sized at .431 had small amounts of alloy scraped off instead of swaged down. Subsequent bullets smeared those lead scrapings onto the throat area and left their own scrapings for the next bullet which is why the leading got progressively worse the more shots fired.  I have gone to using bullets sized no larger than .430 and when loading specifically for the Contender I use .429 sized bullets.  I've not had a leading problem since.

I also lube with BAC or a NRA 50/50 lube on my own cast bullets.  However, I also have shot a lot of commercial "hard" cast bullets sized .429 and lubed with the hard wax lube most commercial casters use which doesn't work all that well.  On those commercial bullets a TL of LLA (light coat and let thoroughly dry) most often prevents any leading with loads up through 1400 fps.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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max503 posted this 22 August 2018

I'm sizing to .431. I might buy some smaller bullets before investing in another die.

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Wineman posted this 22 August 2018

Not any advertisement but Mike Bellm has many stories on the throating of TC Contenders. I shot one in 7 mm TCU and 30 Herret with jacketed back in the 1970's and they were very accurate (IHMSA). I had a Ruger BH in 357 with a tight chamber. It leaded like crazy with anything around 0.360", shot like poop with anything at 0.358". I sent it to the Guitar Guy in NC along with a Lee push through die. Using the modified die, I now get 0.360" and I can shoot any cast load, in 38 SP or 357 mag (~1,200 fps) plain base and a few passes with a patch cleans out the works. Accuracy is as good as I can hold and see the sights (pretty good out to 25 yards). This is with 45:45:10 lube on 148gr WC and 160 gr SWC (bhn around 15).

Dave

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Ed Harris posted this 22 August 2018

For hunting loads in my .44 Magnum and .44-40 rifles and revolvers I use 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals and the Accurate 43-230G bullet of my design, as-cast at .433" in the .44 Magnum Rugers and .44 Mag Marlin 1894S, and sized to .430" in my .44-40 S&W Model 544, a custom Bowen .44-40 cylinder chambered by John Taylor and fitted to my Ruger Super Blackhawk, my Ruger Vaquero .44-40 rechambered by John with the same reamer and my Marlin .44-40 1894S and Rossi .44-40 92 SRC.  I use Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits and make no attempt to full the lube grooves, just turn the bullets a uniform brassy color.  I get no leading.  Here is velocity data and typical groups for my loads:

.44-40 Load Description__Ruger 5-1/2"______Ruger 7-1/2"____Marlin__20" 

-------------------------------------Cyl.Gap 0.003"-------Cyl.Gap 0.002"-----Solid barrel

 *43-230G 1to30Sn/Pb 7.2 BE__997, 10 Sd_______1052, 9 Sd_______1199, 6 Sd__+P,  1.60" OAL crimped top groove

*43-230G 1to30___24.5 RL7___1127, 28Sd______1252, 32 S_______1439, 25Sd___1.60" OAL crimped in top groove

 .44 Mag .Load Description_Ruger 5-1/2_____Ruger 7-1/2"____Marlin 20”__Remarks

-------------------------------------Cyl.Gap 0.008"-------Cyl.Gap 0.008"------Solid barrel

43-230G 1to30Sn/Pb 7.2BE___978, 18Sd________1044, 21Sd_____1178, 7Sd___1.59” OAL cr. top groove

43-230G 1to30Sn/Pb 24.5RL7_1022, 18Sd_______1151, 21Sd_____1432, 26Sd__1.59”OAL cr. top groove

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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BigMan54 posted this 22 August 2018

LMG,

I've shot a lot of Commercial Cast BULLETS with that hard lube, never really seems to do the job. I've found hundreds strewn around the front of of the back berm with the Hard Lube still in the grooves. Found my own bullets, lube grooves empty.

I want to try that trick of Tumble-lubing those Commercial Cast BULLETS. Might just cure that minor leading problem. Bought about 20,000 .44's some 20yrs ago from a gun shop at $10.00 per box of 500. Couldn't pass it up.  

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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Ed Harris posted this 22 August 2018

When somebody gives me a batch of commercial hard-cast bullets which didn't work for them, I usually give them an overcoat of Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits.  This dissolves some of the hard blue lube, and coats the entire bullets with a dark brown coating of mixed dissolved LLA and Hard Blue Garbage.  The tumble lubed bullets don't lead and shoot good enough for practice in the .38 Special and .45 ACP.

It's easier than melting them down and dealing with the smoky, half melted blue monkey excrement.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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max503 posted this 26 August 2018

Looking at my old notes I came across my deer hunting load.  It is the 429421 bullet, Felix lube, over 1.6cc of imr 4227 topped off with .5cc of shot buffet as a filler. 

I loaded up 10 of these and went to the range.

There wasn't one speck of leading in the barrel and this is a fairly stout load. 

My next step is to see if the shot buffet eliminates leading in the Unique loads.

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JSH posted this 26 August 2018

As noted, the TC barrels can be a challenge. I have played with a wide variety of calibers on the TC platform. I know of no known standard to refer to on any of them.

My 357 magnum barrel was no easy fix. I tried various lubes and sizes along with a lot of designs. The harder I pushed it the better it shot, but still not what I thought it capable of. Mulling the issue one evening, I decided to neck size(actually partial size). I sized just the length of the case that the bullet would be in. That in itself solved a whole bunch of issues real quick. That is when I quit building generic ammo. Each of my serious loads are specific to a barrel/frame combo.

Your findings on the 4227 not leading does not suprise me. I have found some of the fast powders to cause issues. I try to wrap my head around this, I believe the fast sharp curve rather than a longer push can cause grief at times. I run the 429421 with 2400, a few tenths short of Elmers load from years back. Shot in my FA and Blackhawk. Both shoot better than I can. Recoil may be stiff to some, I have shot 40 round matches with both guns.

I am of the belief two things go inside a cartridge, powder and projectile. Try a few partial sized,maybe 1/2" of case length.

Ed, what twist is your 44 mag? My Marlin 44 throws me fits. Where the 357 is a pleasure to work with. Jeff

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