Original Smokeless Powder for the 44-40

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

With the help of a few folks I wrote up this article. I think it's 99% accurate. Help is always welcome at correcting inaccuracies mostly do to the lack of historical information..  

 

"Dupont #2"

 

"Twenty two years after its introduction, the first .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridge is found in Winchester's catalog No. 55, dated August, 1895. In its manufacture, Winchester used 17 grains of DuPont No. 2 which was a "bulk" type smokeless powder patented on August 22, 1893. DuPont's description of "bulk" smokeless powder indicated that it was to be loaded in "bulk" measure just like black powder. 

In the .44 W.C.F., 17 grs. of DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless occupied the same volume as 40 grs. of FFG. Velocity was cataloged at 1,300 f.p.s. for a 55 f.p.s. increase over the the black powder cartridge. To identify the new .44 W.C.F. smokeless powder cartridges from those containing black powder, which looked identical, Winchester put a "W" in a circle on the primer." Dupont #2 had a similar burn rate as today's IMR-4227. However, Unlike 17gr of Dupont #2, 17gr of IMR-4227 is not a case capacity load but is a published load. Also unlike Dupont #2, IMR-4227 is formulated in a way that retards burning which prevents high pressure spikes.

 

Lyman's 49th lists a max load, 17gr of IMR-4227 with a Lyman 427098. They claim 1,083fps with no pressure listed for Group I rifles like the Winchester 73'. I tested 17gr in my 20" MGM barrel I used for high pressure testing. 17gr with a 427098 resulted in 1,127fps (closely replicating modern Winchester Super-X ammo velocity) @ 9,500psi. I tested 20gr with a 43-215C (427098 replica) resulted in 1,418fps @ 16,500psi but also included .5cc of PSB shot buffer to keep the powder at the back of the case. IMR-4227 is position sensitive and could be why some of my early velocity tests were lower than the manual.

Lyman's 49th handloading manual shows a max load of 18.5gr of IMR-4227 with a Speer JHP@ 1,212fps. This load only gave me 1,097fps. 20gr of IMR-4227 produced 1,297fps but also created 12,000psi, just a tad over the 11,000psi max. A caseload (26gr) of IMR-4227 with the popular Magma type 200gr lead bullet resulted in 1,733fps but produced 20,913psi....only safe for Group II rifles like the Winchester 92/94 and Marlin's 1894. I am getting consistent 10 shot 4" groups at 100 yards.

22gr with a Winchester 200gr JSP (.425) produced 1,386fps at a lower 12,000psi, which closely replicated early Dupont #2 velocities. I also tested black powder loads in semi-balloon head cases and got a consistent 12,000psi, so I feel safe using 12,000psi loads in my Winchester 73 replica and revolvers with .425-.427 lead or jacketed bullets.

Because of my black powder results using semi-balloonhead cases, I am beginning to think that original BP and smokeless factory loads produced a consistent 12,000psi to 13,000psi. I have yet to see original factory data other than 22,000cup for the High Velocity loads that produced 1,500fps. It would appear that Dupont #2 powder was not coated with a flame-deterrent coating that would retard burning thus causing high pressure spikes and may be why Winchester advertised their new smokeless powder ammunition to NOT be used in revolvers...referring to those black powder frame revolvers.

 

 

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

 

"Sharpshooter and SR80"

By 1900 - Much information by John Kort

 

By the early 1900's, Sharpshooter replaced Dupont #2. 

 

Unlike Dupont #2, L&R Sharpshooter was specifically used in black powder frame firearms. I assume this must be because of the addition of the flame-deterrent coatings that would retard burning allowing lower pressure curves even lower than black powder. In 1903 the High Velocity .44-40 cartridge was introduced. It to used "Sharpshooter" powder in larger doses to achieve its 1,570 f.p.s. velocity. (note Sharpshooter powder can photograph below) They were discontinued by the mid 1940's.

In 1913, DuPont introduced SR80 (Sporting Rifle) . It was a granular type powder, similar in appearance to DuPont No.2 Bulk Smokeless but was a bit faster burning and was not a "bulk" type powder. It's burning rate was in the same range as "Sharpshooter".

“Sharpshooter” and "SR80" fueled millions of .44-40 smokeless factory cartridges up until at least the 1950’s (SR80 was discontinued in 1939) when ball powders began appearing on the scene. Winchester switched to a ball powder similar to the old W630 which also has a similar burning rate to 2400. Remington continued to use “Sharpshooter”. 

During all that time,factory ballistics for the standard cartridge remained at 1,300 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet.
John had the opportunity to find and shoot cartridges of the period and they equaled and sometimes slightly exceeded the 1,300 f.p.s. cataloged velocity.

By the early 1970’s, factory ballistics had been reduced to 1,190 f.p.s. in the catalogs. The reason? It would appear faster burning powders in smaller 7 to 8 gr doses had replaced the slower burning powders. Thus, to keep the pressures within the specified SAAMI limits for the .44-40, the velocity was reduced. I still do not know what the early pressure were for the 44-40. My testings find that some black powder loads in early semi-balloonhead case produces 12,000psi to 14,000psi pending which powder I used. I used Swiss FFG and Goex FFFg, Swill being the hottest.


Unlike the earlier smokeless cartridges that produced catalog ballistics, John also found that in testing the current Winchester and Remington JSP cartridges, they fell a bit short of the 1,190 f.p.s.specification ( closer to 1,150 f.p.s. average). My testing resulted in a consistent 1,050fps @ 8,000psi. Most of my factory smokeless powder testings resulted in pressures 10%-20% lower than SAAMI MAP.

By the 1990’s a new class of 44-40 cartridges were introduced called “Cowboy”. This was due to the interest in Cowboy Action Shooting. Bullets were lead or lead alloy going at around 900-1000 f.p.s.(rifle). Ballistics are 30+% reduced from the original smokeless (and black powder) cartridge and are just fine for recreational shooting. 

 

Some more information from John....

 

there is SR80 "more dense" and there is SR80 "less dense". I say that because I have had the pleasure of working with 5 different lots of SR80 and found that some are more dense than others.

It was one of the powders used in factory ammunition for many of the low pressure factory cartridges.... .22 W.C.F., .32-20, .32-40, .38-40, .38-55, .44-40, etc. 

It is considered to be a gelentanized powder and thus pretty impervious to moisture which was not true of the old DuPont No. 1 & No. 2 bulk smokeless powders. 

I currently use what I have in the .22 W.C.F., .44-40 and .30-30 SR (Short Range) cartridges. It produces accuracy as good as any other powders I have tried in those applications. 14 grs. in the least dense lot of SR80 that I have, is a capacity load in the .44-40 and produces very good groups @ 1,290 f.p.s. 

17 grs. of 4759 is the equivalent to 14 grs. of SR80 in my .44-40. That is with the lots of powder I have and doesn't necessarily mean that the % difference would be the same with different lots and/or different cartridges.

Regarding the smell, Frank Marshall ("Speaking Frankly" column - CBA) said it was the "perfume" powder. I would describe the smell as "barnyard". Since it was around from 1913 to 1939, no doubt, tons of it were used by the factories and reloaders. 

Historic SR80.....a vintage powder from the past........ 
(SR - Sporting Rifle)

 

A good bulk powder, impervious to moisture, with a burning rate of, say, 4227 (Dupont No. 2) or 4198 (DuPont No.1) would be fantastic!~ John Kort 

 

 

 

 

Early Smokeless Powder was sold in Kegs just like black powder. The kegs came in various sizes...some not much bigger than a can of beans. Below are some examples of kegs and flask type containers.

Note that Dupont #5 was also used but only for Pistols.

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

Dupont #2 was patented in 1893 and was sold under the "Deer Banner" not as No. 2. It was a semi-bulk powder and not very popular compared to No. 1 or Shotgun Bulk.  ~photos from RicinYakima

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

 

https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/early-smokeless-powders

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Wineman posted this 02 March 2019

Is the 32 Win Automatic the same as the Win 32 SL? If so, surprising to see it loaded under the 32-20. Prior to the transition to becoming the 30 M1 Carbine ammunition was it lower in velocity than the 32-20?

Dave

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Bryan Austin posted this 02 March 2019

Someone answer his question....I got nothing!!! cheerful

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Larry Gibson posted this 02 March 2019

There was/is a 32 Remington Autoloading cartridge and a 32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge, different cartridges.  I am not aware of a "32 Winchester Automatic" cartridge.  There was 35 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge which is different from the .351 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 02 March 2019

The .32 Remington was a rimless cartridge having ballistics similar to the .32 Winchester Special chambered in the Model 8 autoloader and Model 14 pump guns.  The base diameter is smaller than the .35 Remington, but the same basic case was used for the .25, .30 and .32 Remington Autoloading cartridges.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 02 March 2019

Looking at the charge rates, I would guess for the 7.65 Browning (32ACP) that they would not call that after the break up of Winchester and John B.

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frnkeore posted this 02 March 2019

The Remington, rimless cartridges had the same case head diameter as the 30/30 and were the same length. They had a shoulder of 23 deg. The 30 Rem has slightly more capacity than the 30/30. There was also a 25 and 32, both with the same shoulder. I even have a 30 Rem in my Model 30 Remington Express rifle. I always wanted to shoot that rifle in CBA production class and it would now fit the Hunter class but, I can't bring myself to D&T it for a scope.

The exception, was the rimless, 35 Rem. It has the same case head as the 30/40 but ~1.91 long

The Winchester line of Self Loaders had a 32, 35 and 401, that were blow back operated. I believe the 401 was that latest of those but, I believe there was revisions of the 32 and 35 caliber, called 321 and 351. I also believe the 321 had a longer case, about .10 longer and was what Win revised to the 30 Carbine.

Frank

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frnkeore posted this 02 March 2019

I dug around, a little more and couldn't find a revised 32 SL but, it's dimensions were .346 case head and 1.28 long, with a simi rimmed diameter of .388. It wasn't a bad cartridge, you cold get a 165 gr bullet, going 1480 fps, similar to the original 32/40 load.

The 35 SL became the 351 SL with a increase of 1.15 to 1.38 case length change.

All this OT, I know but, I wanted one of those 401's, BAD, that's why I became interested in the Win SL.

Frank

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Wineman posted this 03 March 2019

Thanks for the info.

Dave

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Bryan Austin posted this 21 March 2019

Notwithstanding the information above........

On the back of the SR80 can I have on hand, it states that 13.7gr is to be used with a 200gr lead bullet to achieve 1,300fps. On a Dupont SR80 load data sheet maybe around WWII...shows 14gr with a 200gr M.C. (JSP) bullet for 1,299fps and 18gr with a 200gr M.C. (JSP) for 1,625fps. I assume the later to be a High Velocity load not to be used in the Winchester 73' or revolvers.

In my testings I feel confident that early black powder loads were closer to 12,500psi rather than 11,000psi in certain semi-balloonhead cases. 11,000psi would be directly equivalent to 13,000cup in SAAMI, not established until the 1960's testings. Early Winchester cartridges used Dupont #2 (Similar burn rate as today's IMR-4227 BUT 4227 IS NOT a bulk powder) which Winchester warned their Dupont #2 loads not to be used in Revolvers but okay for the 73'. IMR-4227 is perfectly safe for all firearms chambered for the 44-40 if modern published data is used. Dupont was replaced by Sharpshooter and SR80 which was developed to replace black powder to be used in all black powder firearms chambered for the 44-40. Ironically these newer powders are all magnum powders.

My testing are divided into two sections, normal velocities that replicate early factory loads and High Velocity, that replicate early High Pressure loads only to be used in the Winchester 92, Marlin 94 type rifles.

Remember Winchester's smaller diameter JSP bullets produce less pressures than any .429 bullet/.429 bores. My 12,500psi BP/BH case loads would probably be higher in older smaller diameter bore rifles.

Using IMR-4227 (have yet to tests 2400 loads), my results follow......

SAAMI MAX 11,000psi/13,000cup

20" MGM custom barrel

10 shots each load

17gr with 200gr Lyman 427098 (.429), 1,127fps @ 9,389psi

19gr with 200gr lead "Magma" (Oregon Trail Laser Cast .429), 1,296fps @ 10,643psi

19.5r with 200gr lead "Magma" (Oregon Trail Laser Cast .429), 1,296fps @ 11,430psi

20gr with 200gr lead "Magma" (Oregon Trail Laser Cast .429), 1,357fps @ 12,238psi

22gr with 200gr lead "Magma" (Oregon Trail Laser Cast .429), 1,514fps @ 14,541psi

25gr with 200gr lead "Magma" (Oregon Trail Laser Cast .429), 1,665fps @ 17,915psi

22gr with 200gr Winchester JSP (.426), 1,386fps @ 12,035psi

25.5gr with 200gr Winchester JSP, 1,735fps @ 19,652psi...this could exceed Winchester's published 22,000cup High Velocity loads. My guess is 18,000psi might be closer to 22,000cup.

26gr with 200gr lead "Magma" (Oregon Trail Laser Cast), 1,733fps @20,913psi...well beyond 22,000cup is my guess!!!

 

https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/early-smokeless-powders

https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/pressure-testing

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Bryan Austin posted this 21 March 2019

Grab some popcorn and a few laughs!!

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JeffinNZ posted this 22 March 2019

Got some trees that need pruning if you have time to spare.  Great video.

Cheers from New Zealand

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RicinYakima posted this 22 March 2019

My goodness! You guys are having fun!

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John Alexander posted this 22 March 2019

Great video.

I would have stopped after the first three shot group at 265.

John

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Bryan Austin posted this 22 March 2019

lol, I kinda did. After the three shot group that hit the bottom of the target, I adjusted for the last center shot. (I was aiming at the left side of the target) in order to hit the center. Then I only had a few left out of 50...for the gong!

Adjusted the sights and gonna load up 50 more for Monday morning and go right for the 265yard target...and gong.

 

Also swapped tripod stands for the spotting scope...maybe this one is a bit more steady.

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