PB 120 Grain in 30-30 Model 94

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  • Last Post 26 February 2017
papertrl posted this 16 February 2017

I've been on a quest to make a 120 grain PBFN (Lyman 3118) shoot accurately in my 30-30. It's a Model 94 20” barrel from the 1950's. I started out with some fairly fast powder, and have been moving down the burn rate chart. Here are my results so far, although the quest is not over. Everything was fired at 50 yards. Alloy is 50/50 COWW/PL, baked @430 for 45 minutes and quenched. (I've been given a suggestion by someone much smarter to bake it longer, and perhaps hotter.) A pattern that seems to be appearing is that as I try progressively slower powders among the assortment of fast powders I own, the differences between best and worst groups narrows. It also looks like the slower the powder I try, the better the larger charges do. I know three isn't a very large sample size to draw conclusions, but it's what I have so far.

The next three stops in powders I own are Herco, AA-5, and 2400. The loads I've tried so far don't seem to be position sensitive. I'm thinking that I'll soon run into a powder that will stop burning well at plain based pressures/velocities. Based on several older discussions in this forum on Bullseye and cast bullets, I really thought 700X would work out better. I suppose with a little harder bullet that could be the case. Oh well, I'm making progress, and it's been fun so far. That's the most important part.

Best for Each Powder Tried                     Worst for Each Powder Tried

2.0 gr 700X, 530 fps, 0.266"                       3.5 gr 700X, 901 fps, 3.976"

5.0 gr Vectan 206V, 1043 fps, 1.263"         3.5 gr Vectan 206V, 803 fps, 3.551"

6.0 gr Unique, 1147 fps, 1.165"                  5.5 gr Unique, 1026 fps, 2.187"

Here are some bullets I recovered this week after our snow melted. Snow really does seem to be a good recovery medium. It just takes awhile!

Reed

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onondaga posted this 17 February 2017

Ipapertrl

Im not familiar with the Vectan 206V but all the others you list are pistol powders. Pistol powders slam hard on ignition in rifles and that effects accuracy. My first choice would be H4895 due to it's soft start that cast bullets like. Cast bullets in a 30-30 like to go 2,000 to 2150 fps to shoot well. 28.0 gr H4895 will yield ~ 2,000 fps with your bullet and 30.6 gr ~ 2150 fps. A capacity load of H4895 at 37.0 gr yields 2619 fps @ 39,789 psi and the Hodgdon 60% rule is valid so reduced charges of H4895 have no ignition problems.You can safely go down to 22.2 gr H4895 with your 120 gr cast bullet in 30-30 and get ~ 1660 fps.

 

Gary

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papertrl posted this 17 February 2017

Thanks, but these are plain based bullets. Seems a little fast ... ??

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 February 2017

hi mr. p

we keep trying for reliable rules for cast bullets ... but it seems  just that some are more * probable * rules than others .

i like that bullet ... shot a few buckets of them in 30 carbine and 32-20 .  without gas check i stayed under 1300 , with any scrap alloy including 22 rf metal .

the rule that seems most valid is that of snug bullet fit in the throat .  i notice that i see no engraving on the nose ... and half that bullet is nose ... i would work on that first, even not worrying about heat treat just yet . remember 22 rf shoot really well at 12-1300 fps, and they are about as soft as you can get ... oh, they have no gas check either.

i think if you can get engraving on the nose the groups will start to be more consistent .. and maybe smaller .... those unique groups at 50 yards look pretty good to me already , so i would stick with unique as long as it burns fairly clean ... my next favorite is 4227 then 2400, but those might be a little dirty at 1200 fps .  poor burning means erratic ignition ... usually a bad thing.

to get a fatter nose, check the archives ( search button ) here for ( best : )  mold lapping ....... ( goofy but next best : ) mold beagling  .... if you have harder alloy, it will get a slightly larger casting, but i doubt it will make enough larger in this case.

oh, another trick ... maybe ... is to powder coat the castings ... also search for that  ... another technique is to squeeze the bullet lengthwise  in a vise  to make it fatter ... this actually works better than it sounds ... probably because size is more important than a perfect bullet ... strangely enough ... which is why beagling kind of works .

just some ideas , please feel free to comment or ask further ... we are still learning ...

ken

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papertrl posted this 17 February 2017

Ken,

Thanks. I appreciate the suggestions.

Reed

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Scearcy posted this 17 February 2017

I too would skip the heat treating. You don't need very hard bullets to do what you are trying to do. If you sized these bullets in a lube sizer w/o heat treating them, you could bump that nose up some with very little difficulty. I have beagled a mold in the past and it didn't work too badly.  Ken's powder choices are good ones. I have had a little better luck with 2400 than unique and YMMV.  They are both rather dirty.

Jim

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onondaga posted this 17 February 2017

Ipapertrl, you said, “Thanks, but these are plain based bullets. Seems a little fast ..."
The heat treat hardening you mention  matches your plain base bullet strength very well to the load level with H4895 to 2150 fps. and slightly beyond.. Lyman #2 or Hardball Pistol, both at BHN 15 would also be a good choice. You can verify this in the chapters on matching alloy to load level in Lee's Modern Reloading 2nd Edition.
Gary

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papertrl posted this 17 February 2017

Ken, after pondering what you wrote, I decided to experiment with the vise. Beagling, lapping, and bumping are no doubt more refined/controlled, but the vise experiment is pretty quick. I've read about that idea before, but dismissed it as too crude. If you are seriously suggesting it, it must not be totally off the wall. It didn't take much effort with my little vice to expand the nose from .308 to .311+. Base went from .310 to .315. Shortened from .645 to .598! It's easy to see the difference in the picture. No micrometer required. No clue how bent this bullet may be now! I may need to refine my squishing technique a little, but I'll fire off 20 or so of these and see how they do.  Cartridge was added just to show how puny the vise is that did all that “improving.” We'll see. big_grin

Reed

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 February 2017

ha ... i love it !! ...you should see if the bullet will chamber in your '94 before you size the base dia. down ...

also you might be interested in a couple/three recent threads here concerning * building your own bump dies * .... ou has a great idea and has one working pretty well .....  there is a difference between * bumping * and * sizing * but are similar up to a point . ( no pun intended ) ...

ken

 

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papertrl posted this 18 February 2017

Follow-up question: For a .309 bore, what would be a good size for the nose?

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John Alexander posted this 19 February 2017

You will spend much less time beagling you mold with a few layers of al foil that individually squashing bullets in a vice and they won't vary from one to the next.  It is goofy as Ken says because it makes the bullets less round but it works I have won a fair number of matches with beagled bullets.  I assume the competition were shooting rounder bullets.

Most everybody says that bullets should be round.  I have never seen a good test to confirm that.  Fit is much more important.

 

John

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RicinYakima posted this 19 February 2017

John, As I have said before: the bullet is a wad of bubble gum going down the bore. The only question is: does the bullet fit the throat when the primer lites everything off? If it is square and seals, it will shoot well, if not it will not. Ric

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rhbrink posted this 19 February 2017

You will spend much less time beagling you mold with a few layers of al foil that individually squashing bullets in a vice and they won't vary from one to the next.  It is goofy as Ken says because it makes the bullets less round but it works I have won a fair number of matches with beagled bullets.  I assume the competition were shooting rounder bullets.

Most everybody says that bullets should be round.  I have never seen a good test to confirm that.  Fit is much more important.

 

John

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rhbrink posted this 19 February 2017

I always thought that if the bullet fit the throat and you shoot it will be round when it comes out the other end? Now whether or not that it will be accurate that's the $64,000 question?

RB

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Scearcy posted this 19 February 2017

I have beagled bullets over the years. There is no question in my mind that they will produce sufficient accuracy for most purposes - for sure. There is an aluminum high temperature tape available a the big box stores which works just fine. I have a nice old Eagan mold that casts its bullets about .002 smaller than I would like. I may have to beagle that and try it today. Many if not most over the counter molds drop bullets that are somewhat out of round. 

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John Alexander posted this 19 February 2017

The post above that seems to be from rhbrink but has my name at the bottom is mine.  Not sure how that happens but any brick bats should come my way -- not at Richard.

John

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rhbrink posted this 19 February 2017

Not sure what happened on the above post I tried to quote John and write my post but they came out as two different post hope that no body took them the wrong way?

Richard

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Hmm. I'm good!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 February 2017

mr p. ::

just got back ... usually if your throat/bore is 0.309, then 0.309 will show good accuracy ... even better is 0.310 but if you have a fresh chamber you might run into tolerance stackup and some loads would be hard to chamber and some might push the bullet back in the case neck, giving ignition variances .  ...

notice we are talking mostly about your chamber throat more than the barrel proper size ...if you have a new chamber, you probably have much of the throat in your cartridge at 0.309 ...  for best information you really should slug the chamber and throat and 1/2 inch in front of the throat ...  this chamber image is very helpful in fitting your cartridge for best results .  if you are not quite ready for this interesting process, just size the nose 0.309 .

from my plinking standpoint, i try to avoid tight chambering .... everybody has to have a bullet stick and pull out once ... dumping powder into the action .... but once is enough .  ( my most recent disaster was dumping 50 gr of stick powder into a remmy 742 ... did full 2 hour takedown ... ha ) .

let us know how your project is progressing

ken

 

 

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Thanks  for the thoughts on the chamber Ken. I've done impact casts on a couple .303 Brits, and they were very informative. Learned that one was way tighter than I was giving it credit for. I've never tried Cerosafe, but would imagine that could give the best picture. I've also been thinking about John's post, and I know he's right. Time wise it makes sense to Beagle the mould, and I probably will. But it was kind of fun watching the nose of that bullet grow in my vise. I have about 30 bullets remaining, and during breaks between working on my taxes I'll probably amuse myself by seeing how close to .309 I can make those noses. Then I'll try Beagling. I will pursue a chamber cast at some point.

Reed

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2017

I would like to see close-up photos of the BASES of your fired bullets.  I believe that in extruding the square-edged, sharp-based bullet into the tighter .30-30 barrel that you are dragging a “fin” off the base.  That wire edge has less heat capacity than a more rounded or beveled base, which upon upset gives the displaced material somewhere to flow.

The Accurate 31-125D in a plain, bevel-based bullet I intended for small game loads in .30 cal. rifles which could be loaded as-cast without sizing, simply tumbling in Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits, to provide a very thin lube coating all over, just enough to turn the bullets a uniform “brassy” color, making no attempt to fill the grease grooves.

In the .30-30 I use 3.0 to 5.0 grains of Bullseye.

 

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Ed, I'd be glad to have you look at them. Now that you've mentioned it, these bases don't look very flat anymore. Will check out your 31-125D.

Reed

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2017

Looks like the wire edges where the “fin” used to be have been blasted off.

Those lead deposits are probably distributed down your bore!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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papertrl posted this 20 February 2017

Looks like the wire edges where the “fin” used to be have been blasted off.

Those lead deposits are probably distributed down your bore!

Did I want those fins, or is it good they were blasted off? Kept things balanced that way? I had a few lead flakes on the first couple of patches and a little fine glitter that appeared in the first two brush repetitions. There weren't any globs or streaks that I could see looking down the bore. Of course I did shoot some GC rounds after the PB. Maybe they helped with the janitorial work?

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Ed Harris posted this 20 February 2017

Best to avoid the fins in the first place.

Purpose of a bevel-based bullet is not just for easier loading, but to help prevent cupping and finning of the bullet base.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 21 February 2017

100 years ago, fining was considered a problem. There has not been a complete test, that I know about, in the last 50 + years. Cupping does appear to limit the pressure a plain base bullet will withstand. Myself, I just shoot them at 1250 f/s and don't have a problem. HTH, Ric

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 February 2017

mr p.

upon re-reading my last/previous reply it occurs to me that we should differentiate between * bore * ...and ... * groove * ... diameters .

another consideration ... and another reason to do a chamber cast is that 30-30 chambers are supposed to not have much groove-diameter in front of the chamber neck ... ( in my freshly new hr handi-rifle i shot 0.314 wadcutters bumping the rifling ) ... anyway, if you have a great old classic 1949 or so m94,  the throat could be about anything ... maybe even improved by firing .

on ” vice-bumping ” ... ( g ) ....  you could put a control rod between the jaws , about in the center of the jaws, next to the bullet ... to control the squish ...    a small ( 10-32 ?  ) machine screw with a nut off the end would be adjustable ... or a piece of loosely fit tubing around the bullet ..

ha i like these ” ol' boy ” reloading tools ... when i was a kid i sized cases by jacking them into/out of a homemade sizer die with a bottle jack pushing against the bottom of our allis-chalmers tractor ... nails filed down made a great de-primer punch ...

so shoot a few of those vice-swaged slugs for us old guys ... we might still learn something ...

ken

 

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papertrl posted this 21 February 2017

Ken,

The rifle is from the mid 50's. Lands are .302, grooves are .3091. I know I said earlier that the bore was .309. I think technically it's .302, or is that the English that do that?

I spent some time on a farm as a kid, and learned quite a bit about farmer repair and construction methodology. My grandpa and my dad both farmed. Early on my dad started logging and the methods were often similar. I lived a big chunk of my summers on my grandpa's farm and received numerous refresher courses in old school farm ways. Not much in the machine shop other than a coal-fired forge, hammers & tongs, a big anvil, and of course a stout vise. I guess that's where my interest in expedient methods comes from. It still tickles me to see cardboard covering the radiators of work trucks around here, and homemade doors and windows on cars occasionally.  So that probably explains why I found the vise to be so entertaining. A little old school creeping in. I like your stopper idea. Another field expedient. Same reason I still use a Lee Loader once in awhile.

From the sounds of your early reloading methods, you might have a book waiting to be written. Sounds like you were pioneering early forms of Lee Loader and its predecessors.  If I could clearly remember a fraction of the down home stories I heard when I was young, I'd have a book out by now.

Reed

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SierraHunter posted this 21 February 2017

I would try shooting the bullets non heat treated. No reason to heat treated if we keep the velocity around the sound barrier. Softer left will obturate better as well.

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shootcast posted this 26 February 2017

I haven't used the bullet that you are but I have used both Herco and 2400. Both work well enough in 30-30 loads that should make you happy. Mine are G/C but have no reason to believe that you won't get good results. Check Lyman manual or other for load data.

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Cary Gunn posted this 26 February 2017

Sounds like “Papertrl” is happy with his Lyman 3118 120gr. slug, but another easily available pill in the same weight-range is the little Lee “Trashcan” bullet, the C309-113-Flatnose.

The Lee Trashcan has been very accurate in virtually every .30 caliber shooter I've tried it in. It does well in the .308 Win. and the 30-06, and even groups nicely in the slightly larger tubes of my Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R rifles.   It also pulls duty for me in the 7.62x25 mm Tokarev pistol, and the 7.62x38R Nagant revolver.

Although I've never tried it in the .30-30, I'd bet the Lee pill would be fine there too.

I run the little fellow with a bare base at velocities up to 1300 f.p.s. or so, and gas check it if I want to kick the speed up into the mid-to-high teens.  I've never tried to run it over 2,000 f.p.s., but I'm guessing that with a gas check and suitable bullet alloy it would shoot fine at that level too.

What's more, the Lee molds are very inexpensive, and I've always found the Trashcan design very easy to cast.

If you decide to “branch out” a bit from your Lyman 3118 slug, the Lee Trashcan would be a good one to consider.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

 

  

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papertrl posted this 26 February 2017

I haven't used the bullet that you are but I have used both Herco and 2400. Both work well enough in 30-30 loads that should make you happy. Mine are G/C but have no reason to believe that you won't get good results. Check Lyman manual or other for load data.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll get there. Was working my way down the burn rate chart, but have been sidetracked by several good suggestions from others regarding finning, alternate bullets, nose size, and I'm probably missing some others off the top of my head. 

Reed

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papertrl posted this 26 February 2017

Sounds like “Papertrl” is happy with his Lyman 3118 120gr. slug, but another easily available pill in the same weight-range is the little Lee “Trashcan” bullet, the C309-113-Flatnose.

Cary, no I'm not entirely happy with the 3118--yet--maybe never. Is the Lee “Trashcan” also called the “Soup Can,” or is that an entirely different bullet? You've given some good details in the use of this “Trashcan.” Tempting. Ed Harris has also suggested a good-sounding alternative, although my budget likes the sounds of the Lee. I have quite a bit of Lee equipment, and overall I'm satisfied with it, but I hesitate to buy more of their moulds. Maybe it's just my luck, but the last several I've bought have cast quite undersized no matter what my alloy. In addition, I've been lucky enough to have the little locator pins fall out, even with sprue plate lube on them. If I could find some old Lee moulds on EvilBay, I'd certainly bite. (Not sure of the exact vintage when things were still pretty round and size could be trusted. How long has Richard Lee been gone?)

Reed

 

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