SierraHunter's 300 blackout thread

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  • Last Post 01 March 2017
SierraHunter posted this 02 February 2017

I've been working with the 300 blackout for a while now. I'm just starting to start working with cast bullets in it, and have been asked by several people to document my load development. My elderly goal is to have a load thay will shot a inch at 100 yards and cost under 10 cents each. When I bought the blackout, I saw it as a modern 32/20, with the ability to get cases much easier, and shoot any bullets I might have laying around.

So far, I have shot just enough to know the rifle will shoot that we'll, but not consistently. I pulled the rifle from the stock this morning and noticed the finish worn off the stock towards the end of the stock. I sanded this out so it does not touch, but have not shot it since. Before I was averaging about 2 inch groups at 100 yards, sometimes putting several under a inch, and then 1 or 2 fliers. I have only worked with a couple bullets so far, but plan on trying quite a few, both powder coated and lubed. I know with jacketed bullets, the rifle likes the lighter weight bullets better then heavy ones, even though it has a 1 in 7 twist.

The rifle is a Ruger American Ranch, with a 4-14 Falcon Optics scope on it. Most of my shooting is done from a Bipod and rear sand bag off a bench at 100 yards.

I don't know if I'll reach my goal of 1 MOA or not but I think it's worth a try. The rifle will do it with Jacketed and I can't push the jacketed that much faster then cast out of this cartridge.

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onondaga posted this 02 February 2017

SierraHunter

Ruger specifies that model as a 1MOA rifle with factory ammo. That means 5 shots in an inch every time at 100 yards. you want a cast load to do the same. Well so would everyone else.

I have had success getting the Lee 300AAC cast bullet in my 7.62X39 Remington Spartan but actually got the Lee 32 ca. pistol bullet TL-314-90-SWC, sized for my rifle and shooting better and the Ranchdog 31 cal 165 gr FNGC does too. My fluted 24” barrel is 1:10 twist and chrome lined. I also polished the bore with my method in the Accuracy forum. The rifle loves cast and I have all 3 bullets I shoot grouping under 1/2” at 50 Yards.. My best 5 shot group with the 300AAC was 1.2"@100yards but groups averaged 1.6". My rifle is NOT a lightweight at all at 9.5 lbs all up. I see your Ruger is under 6 lbs. That is a very light short barreled carbine rifle you have. I wish you well but your expectations may be unreachable with cast bullets even if you add up everyone's tricks..

Three powders, H Titegroup, H4895 and AA2230 are the powders I tested. The titegroup was for low velocity and subsonic only and gave me a killer squirrel round at 1160fps with the little SWC pistol bullet.

I tried H Titegroup with the 300AAC at subsonic-1600fps without and with gas checks.The best load was #2 alloy and sized/checked .3125” but the RD165FNGC  bullet shoots better.

Any of those 3 bullets  are large enough in diameter to size/check for your rifle. You sound like you want to get a heavy one shooting well but don't pass up the little Lee TL-314-90-SWC. It is cheaper to load than buying .22 Rim-fire.  It is my best shooter for the caliber and a joy squirrel hunting.

 

All my bullets are #2 alloy tumble lubed 45:45:10

Gary

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Scearcy posted this 02 February 2017

I did a series of 3 articles on the 300 BLK for the TFS last spring.  I also used the 300 BLK in a number of CBA matches the past two years. It seemed that the small case should allow pretty good accuracy. This is particularly true with the unusually long throat that the 300 BLK possesses. I still have two 300 BLK bolt guns.  Pretty good accuracy should come easily.  Very good accuracy not so much.  I'll be very interested to see what you come up with. 

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 02 February 2017

Gary, I wouldn't really say that I'm looking to use a heavier bullet. I plan on trying them. The one that I have high hopes for is the Lyman #311466 and the Lyman #311410. With the small amount of shooting I've done so far, I've had pretty decent results with the NEI 200gn DD design.

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frnkeore posted this 02 February 2017

Let me see if I can be of some help.

I built a 32/20 (12 twist, .308 Douglas bbl) on a high wall action, for my wife to shoot in our ASSRA matches.

Shot breech seated, it should have a simular case capacity as your BLK with a bullet in the neck.

Depending on the day, she is getting 1.9 - 2.5, five shot groups at 200 yd, using a 184 gr bullet. The rifle has put 10 shots in 2.5 @ 200.

Her load is 10.5 gr AA #9, using either Rem 7 1/2 or Fed 205M.

I would suggest starting with that load, including the same primers and jamming the bullet as much as possible, using a bore riding bullet, to help align it. Then move up, as much as 1 gr (.5 increaments) and down .5 gr. We use a BW/Alox lube and I would also suggest that, too.

#9 is THEE powder for small capacity cases in my sport. I use it in my 33 ELCO (357 Max case) and have shot 200 yard groups as small as .46. Must people that shoot the 32 Miller short use it, too. Our national record @ 200 is .2 something, using a surplus #9 powder.

Frank

 

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SierraHunter posted this 02 February 2017

I'll have to try that. The powders I have tried so far are Reddot, and SR4756, but as I stated I havnt shot much yet.

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GP Idaho posted this 02 February 2017

SH: I own a 16” upper for my Rock River Arms AR and I bought my daughter the 300 Blackout H&R Handi rifle. My next purchase will most likely be the Ruger bolt action. I'm still working on loads with these and so far most have been with the Lee moulds. CTL312-160-2R and the 155gr that's about the same bullet with a standard lube groove. I've also tried the TL309-230-5R in the single shot.  In early testing I have been loading with AA1680 and H110 with a few loaded with TiteGroup in the Handi. almost  all have been powder coated.  I will watch this thread and your results.  Best Gp

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SierraHunter posted this 03 February 2017

Wife went out of town for a few days so I took the opportunity to take over the kitchen table and bed this rifle. The recoil lugs on this rifle are a bit unconventional, but work. This is actually going to be my first bedding job, so wish me luck.

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Scearcy posted this 03 February 2017

The V blocks in the Ruger Ranch seem to do a surprisingly good job.  With the light recoil of cast bullets in a 300 BLK, I would think bedding won't be a serious issue.  If you find a technique which really helps, give us a picture!  My Ranch rifle is not as accurate as I thought it should be.

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 03 February 2017

Bedding turned out pretty nice. I bedd3d both sets of V blocks as well as the sides of reciever to the stock. I noticed before with the bolts loose there was quite a bit of back and forth and side to side movement. With the bedding there is no movement period.

I also routered out the forearm and laid a carbon fiber arrow shaft up front, filled in with shot around it, and then epoxies the while thing in, and free floated it. I'm getting ready to go shoot it as soon as the sun comes out enough that it does not feel 12 below out.

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SierraHunter posted this 03 February 2017

So, went out and shot the rifles favorite load today. The target on the top left was 6 rounds with the 130gn SPEER HP and 20gn of H110. The hole that is circled was the first shot from a clean barrel. This load shot pretty well before, but this group is the smallest air have shot with it. I was getting a bit of vertical stringing before.

The other three groups were fired with factory Sig 220gn ammo. Someone gave it to me to see what I thought of it. I must say, I'm not very impressed.

”

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SierraHunter posted this 03 February 2017

Tried 700x with the 200gn NEI DD design. The bullets are on the soft side, and powder coated with harbor freight Red. I think I need to make up a harder batch, because I worked up from 5gn of powder, and as soon as it stared to show some promise I started getting wild patterns at about 8 grains of powder.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 03 February 2017

bedding :   i advise everyone not to waste ammo before bedding ...even the factory bedding blocks etc .   even recoil and/or vibrations from a rimfire makes bedding a necessity for best accuracy ..... accuracy defined as predictable impact of bullet .

fwiw my favorite bedding is still the pillar type .... easy and simple, less mess,  gives good results ... and you can take the rifle apart as opposed to ” glue-ins ” ... .

ken

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Scearcy posted this 03 February 2017

SH

Can you post a picture of your stock?  I think an aluminum arrow filled with lead might be an option for a guy with 10 thumbs like myself.

The 130 gr HP is a good bullet.

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 04 February 2017

bedding :   i advise everyone not to waste ammo before bedding ...even the factory bedding blocks etc .   even recoil and/or vibrations from a rimfire makes bedding a necessity for best accuracy ..... accuracy defined as predictable impact of bullet .

fwiw my favorite bedding is still the pillar type .... easy and simple, less mess,  gives good results ... and you can take the rifle apart as opposed to ” glue-ins ” ... .

ken

 

I've always had the glass bedded type bedding, and have never had one that I could not take apart. This one I did with accuglass from brownells.

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SierraHunter posted this 04 February 2017

SH

Can you post a picture of your stock?  I think an aluminum arrow filled with lead might be an option for a guy with 10 thumbs like myself.

The 130 gr HP is a good bullet.

Jim

 

I'm not sure that a photo will do it much justice. The Arrow in completely covered in shot, so  the only thing that can see if the shot, and the clear epoxy. If you would like, I could do a write up on exactly what I did. I may be doing my Mauser 308 this same way, and if I do, I will take some photos of the process.

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SierraHunter posted this 04 February 2017

I decided to change gears, and keep trying the 700X since I didn't really have enough of the bullets left to start with a new powder. I switched to a pistol primer, and started working back down from where I was. It did shoot a bit better then it did with the small rifle primers, but still nothing to write home about. I think I need to water drop the bullets after baking them to harden then back up a bit. I have a batch of the Lyman #311466 that I coated, and I'm getting ready to reheat them, and water drop them, and will be giving them a try in the next few days.

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JSH posted this 04 February 2017

After having used the 30-20 for the past 20+ years and cast bullets only in my three different guns I have learned a fair bit. FYI I used a 30x221 for a couple of years, the 30-20 was more friendly for me. There is not enough to difference in the two to argue over.

The advice on the AA #9 is good, it is my go to powder for bullets over 150. I played with a lot of fast powders. It seemed no matter the design the sweet spot was very small. I use bullseye and 120-140 plain base for 100m and under. It is not subsonic but stays super to 100. A solid powder column seems to have been best for me and others. Bullet jammed into rifling on seating is another thing that seems to work better. Dunno why. I do shoot a bore rider, so upon closing the action it finishes seating the bullet. RCBS165 Sil design. I must have tried close to 20 designs before I just kind of tripped over this one.

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SierraHunter posted this 04 February 2017

That is some pretty good advise. I don't have any #9, but I do Ave some WC820 which should be pretty close.

The only 2 bullets I have tried that engage the rifling are the 200gn DD (only the nose ring touches), and the custom NEI mold we have for 235 grain round nose. This rifle has a terribly long throat.i am hoping to be able to seat the lovern out of the case quite a ways and this it will engage the rifling. My dad has a lot of 30 caliber molds, so I should be able to find something that works.

The 30-221 and the 300 blackout are quite close actually.

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SierraHunter posted this 04 February 2017

One thing I would like to make a comment on.

One of the big attractions to this cartridge to me was being able to easily form cases from 223. When I first bought the rifle, I formed some cases and selected 5 FC cases to use for load testing. I quite counting at 50 reloads, and that was quite a while ago. I have not annealed them or anything. I did try some cast with cases that havnt been shot as much, and some annealed ones and saw no gain in accuracy over ones that had been well used.

The dies I have are Hornady custom grade, and of I set the sizer die to only size half the neck, it also starts to size the body. I found that using a 7.62x25 Tok sizer die backed out makes a perfect neck sizer, and if properly adjusted I can size the full neck without touching the shoulder or body of the case.

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Scearcy posted this 04 February 2017

I found I had to be very careful with shoulder set back with these cases.  Ultimately I bought new cases thinking I had solved the case problem.  I Had to fire form every last one of them  as the shoulders were way too far back right out of the bag.

RCBS 165 sil is a great recommendation. The Harris 160 gr works well also.  I am going to try the Lee 160 spitzer (312) next, see below for reason.

I found 4227 to be the best powder for my purpose (1500+ fps). 2400 works great for lighter loads (125 gr FN) but was never quite as good as 4227 for full power loads.  1680 and 4198 seemed just a bit slow for cast bullets in a bolt gun.

I would avoid bullets that are too long even though you have a fast twist rifle. 200 gr spitzers and heavier never really worked for me.  200 gr round nose and truncated cones were ok.  I finally settled on 311299s for match use and 150-160 gr bullets for fun.  I have a project still pending with 160 spitzers .  I have never developed a load yet that feeds reliable through the ranch rifle.  Hopefully these middle weight spitzers will solve that.  My Savage action feeds better but is still not reliable with any FN bullet.

Currently I have fired about 2500 rounds through 3 rifles the last 3 years.  It is a fun cartridge and holds plenty of challenges to keep it interesting.

Have fun

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 04 February 2017

I'm not sure if dad has that RCBS mold or not. I'll have to ask him. Right now, I'm just going through the basement, and finding what ever odds and ends are laying around, and shooting them up. Once those are all gone, I'll start casting specific designs I want to try, probably starting on the light side and working up in weight.

I never had a problem with mine feeding until more recently. It always fed quite well, but lately the magazine is not rotating. I have to pop it out each shot and smack it on the bench to get the cartridge to pop up and feed.

I'm probably at about 800 rounds through this gun. I started to keep count when I first bought it, but after awhile am I quit writing it down every time I used the rifle to pop some kind of pest or what ever.

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SierraHunter posted this 05 February 2017

Worked with WC820, which is supposedly the same as accurate #9 with bullets ranging from 140 to 235 grains. Mostly of them shot around 2.5-3 inch groups at 100 yards. The exception to the rule was the Lyman 311299x which shot under 1.5” groups with the best being .97". The problem is, neither me nor my dad has this mold. Someone had sent these to me to try awhile back, and I shot them all up today.

I did try a couple groups at 50 yards and they were all decent groups, so something is happening between 50 and 100 yards. Not sure if I need to push them faster, or back off a bit.

So far I've had the best luck with SR4756, so I think tomorrow I am going to start working with fast pistol powders and see what happens. I saw a jug on the new IMR target powder today when I went to the LGS, and almost got it but didn't.

This 5 shot group was fired with the Lyman 311299 powder coated and gaschecked. 10.5gn of WC820 at 100 yards.

”

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Scearcy posted this 05 February 2017

whoa!!!!!!! that is a serious group.  

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SierraHunter posted this 05 February 2017

I'm thinking I am going to have to get that mold to do further testing. I only had 35 of the bullets, so by the time I got so where with them, I was out. They also had gaschecks on them, which defeats the 10 cents or less a round I am trying to achieve.

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Scearcy posted this 05 February 2017

SH

PM your address to me and I will send you a batch of 311299 bullets so you can continue your work while you are looking for a mold.

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 06 February 2017

I had to work all day today, so didn't get a chance to shoot but did come up with some ideas. Since the 311299 seemed to work well I decided to try nose sizing a few of the 235 grain from the smooth sided NEI mold. I'd got a batch in the tumbler right now, and hope to get a chance to shoot them in the next few days

Bullet on the left is before nose sizing.

”

”

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SierraHunter posted this 07 February 2017

Sitting here in my truck waiting for my wife's way over due flight to show up. Didn't really get a chance to shoot anything today since I had to go get the brakes done on my truck this morninf, and then head to Idaho to pick up my wife. I did shoot 2 groups with the smooth sided bore rider, and although it may have been a bit better grouping, I didn't get to play with it enough. I do think I need to adjust my dies and make the bearing surface a bit longer, but it is a work in progress.

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frnkeore posted this 07 February 2017

Here is a bullet you might be interested in. I just got it 2 days ago. It's the NOE, HTC 310 174.

I sized mine down to .309 to shoot in my wife's 32/20 HW and drew it at that size.

In my subsonic work with 22RF, I found that I only had to rub lube on the outside of the smooth bullets and I have had no leading, ever, in 1000's of shots and thats the plan for this one.

Frank

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SierraHunter posted this 08 February 2017

Finally starting to get somewhere and at the same time, I feel like a idiot.

I have decided that bullets over 200 grain are a waste of time. Not only do they cost more, but they don't shoot all that well, even in jacketed. If I were to ever order a barrel, I think I would order it with a 1/10 or even a 1/12 twist.

I finally got to testing with the 311466 and went with what I learned with the heavier bullets, and used a faster pistol powder. I settled on American Selecta since it is quiet fluffy, and fills the case fairly well.

This is where step one of feeling like a idiot comes into place. I decided to throw some charges and weigh them, and was getting a astounding variance in charge weights. I started weighing charges and effectively cut my group sizes in half.

Part two of me feeling like a idiot, was I've mentioned I've been using the same five cases the whole time. I'm been pretty consistently getting 1 flier per 5 shot group. A light bulb went off in my head today, and I marked the case that threw the shots and then fired a few more groups with the batch of cases, the the marked case threw a shot out of the group every time.

Working with the 311466, I was shooting them at .309” powder coated, without a gascheck. The throat on this rifle is so long I can seat the bullets just enough to hold them in the case straight, and they still don't touch the rifling. I started at 4.8 grains and worked up to about 6.3 and after discovering weighing charges made such a huge difference, worked back down, and settled on 5.3gn. The two groups shown below were the last two that I fired today, with the circled hole being fired from the case I marked. I'll be getting together a batch of 10 cases and firing some 10 shot groups when I get a chance. Price per round is about 9 cents using a CCI #400 small rifle primer.

”

”

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Scearcy posted this 08 February 2017

Frank

plain base, subsonic?????? that might be an interesting bullet for light loads in many 30 cal cases.

Jim

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SierraHunter posted this 08 February 2017

It is a good looking design. I may have to get it someday.

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onondaga posted this 08 February 2017

SierraHunter

Your vertical dispersion is well under 2” with a non worked up load at 100 yards. That bullet has high potential

I could not be comfortable using the targets you shoot.  If you could get comfortable with a 2” bull or a scope centering line target, I think your groups would shrink. I am old and wear glasses but I can focus cross-hairs or open sights on a 2” bull at 100 yards with my glasses on. I use a 1” bull for 50 yards.  Centering on the smallest spot I can identify makes me shoot my best.

If you haven't tried sizing your bulls eyes for the range before, It really is a good idea no matter your age or experience. I actually print all my targets on 70 pound card stock I get by the ream of 500.

You may need new glasses and if you tell the doctor you want to be able to focus on a 2” bulls eye at 100 yards with or without  a scope the doctor can accommodate that. That is normal vision range for 20-20 corrected vision with eyeglasses.

I am not trying to be mean. I hope something might help. Actually when I see people at the range with big bull targets, I talk their ears off and give them some of my targets and tell them to try shooting at a smaller spot to center their concentration smaller. They generally shoot better the first try.

Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 10 February 2017

Only had 19 of the 311466 left. I've been playing along so far with small rifle primers, but loaded up 10 tonight with CCI small pistol primers and the 5.3 grains of American Select, and the other 9 were loaded with CCI small rifle. I was hoping to get to shoot them in the morning, but turns out I have to work so probably won't get a chance to shoot them until this weekend.

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onondaga posted this 10 February 2017

Great you are having fun, my range is buried in snow

Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 10 February 2017

Oh we still have plenty of snow. But Temps have been nice the last few days. 39 above right now. It was below 0 a week ago though.

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SierraHunter posted this 11 February 2017

Actually typed this up night, but the site was down and would not let me post it.

Decided to clean the rifle tonight since I hadn't cleaned it since air started this project and have fired over 200 rounds. I'm the worst about cleaning guns on a regular basis.

Anyway, I've fired mostly Powder coated bullets since the last time it was cleaned, with a few jacketed and grease lubed bullets. I'd say maybe 30 jacketed and 15 regular lubed. It looked fairly clean before I started, but it was pretty filthy and it got quite a bit of silver flaking out on my patches. Took 4 times brushing out out with Hoppe's #9 with patches in between before I finally stopped getting silver flecking. I will shoot three foulers before group shooting the 311466 this weekend which will leave me with 2 8 shot groups with SR and SP primers.

Considering the silver flecking it makes me even more interested in accuracy testing the PC and traditional lube side by side for accuracy.

I pulled the muzzle brake off to clean, and took a good look at the crown on this rifle, and I think I'm going to Chuck it in the lathe and recrown it. The crown is very rough, and actually have several ridges that rise noticeably above the bottom of the crown. It wouldn't be a big deal to take care of it on the lathe. I also noticed the muzzle brake collects a lot of junk, and I hadn't considered that it may be affecting accuracy, so at some point will have to shoot it with and without and see if it makes a difference.

One other thing I decided I don't like about this gun, is the breach face is quite a ways back from the front of the ejection port, and collects a lot of junk. Not having a feed ramp of any kind makes it a pain to single load, but it makes it easy more of a pain to clean. A guy would just about have to take the barrel off to get it completely clean.

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onondaga posted this 11 February 2017

SierraHunter

Try to force yourself to recognize there are very specific reasons for leading and they are all avoidable:

1) bullets that are too small in diameter and don't start from a stable position wobble down the bore and lead up barrels.

2) bullets that are too weak or too strong for the load level lead up barrels

3) bore finish effects leading

4) bullet lube is the least important factor of leading when the bullets fit and have a stable start.

SOLUTIONS:

My Bore polishing method in the Accuracy section of the forum will address any reasonable bore finish problem for cast bullets.:

http://castbulletassoc.org/thread/8364-my-bore-polish-method-to-shoot-better/

Clean the BoreSnake when done with that job and use it clean and dry at the range 2 pulls before shooting and one pull every 5 shots gives a relatively constant bore condition and  traditional bore cleaning is only necessary at end of season for storage.

 

Bullet fit is easily addressed with the traditional ink test on a dummy load.

 

Follow the Lee alloy to load level recommendations and you will not go wrong on bullet strength.

Any questions? Just ask.

 

Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 11 February 2017

It is quite possible that the bore is rough. It is a production ruger. I may have to try polishing it up a bit although I had hoped it would clean up some just by shooting.

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SierraHunter posted this 11 February 2017

Well...back to the drawing board. Shot my 2 8 round groups today, and I was not very satisfied. Unfortunately, I have to go out of town for a few days so won't be able to get back at it until middle of next week.

The group with the holes marked is the SR primer. Other is SP primer. The boxes on the target are half inch.

”

”

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mike morrison posted this 12 February 2017

the lee 200gr cast gc sized .310 in front of 16.5 of data2200 will shoot moa from my 12 twist. what a fun ctg.

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SierraHunter posted this 01 March 2017

This project is on hold for awhile. I've got to go to Spokane Washington for 2 weeks for job training.

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onondaga posted this 01 March 2017

It is quite possible that the bore is rough. It is a production ruger. I may have to try polishing it up a bit although I had hoped it would clean up some just by shooting.
I hope you try my Bore Polish method. It is a one time procedure that refines bore finish and makes bores easier to maintain. Do not risk a poor job by making substitutions, changing  or shortening the method. The large groups you get should get smaller but I continue to assert that your problem is more basic than bore finish. I don't believe your bullets fit the chamber throat and I doubt they get a stable start from an engaging the leade position while your alloy selection to load level is not addressed. Skipping this stuff only leaves random happenstance to account for accuracy.
Gary

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SierraHunter posted this 01 March 2017

I'm probably going to try polishing the bore when I get time. If I had a place to cost on my own right now I would be messing more with bullet alloy, but am bumming bullets made of who knows what off my dad for the time being. Hoping to have my own house by the end of the summer so I can start casting again.

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