This article written by CBA member Gordon Meeder, was published in the Mar/Apr 2011, #210 issue of the Fouling Shot.
I just had to have a Colt Police Positive to add to my modest collection of Colt service revolvers. The one I bought just happened to be in 38 S+W. Or as Colt called it, the 38 Colt New Police. Once I got it I had to shoot it. I found a couple of boxes of Remington factory 146gr. cartridges. It took no time at all to shoot them up. I bought a set of Lee dies and went to work to reload them.
Ive been reloading for years and everything seemed normal until I went to seat the bullets; the 125 grain Lee round flat nose and 148 grain wadcutters. (I chose those bullets because thats what I have molds for.) They were loose in the sized case. Some would fall in!
Now the 38 S+W is supposed to shoot a .360 diam-eter bullet. My Lee bullets out of the mold go .358-.359. That ought to have been big enough to have at least some tension in a resized case.
I looked at the sizing die and noticed it said it was for a 38 Auto, whatever that is. I thought maybe Lee miss-packaged the die set. I sent a note to Lee. They said that was the correct sizing die. Working at it some more I noticed that some of the cases held the bullet tighter than others. I thought, could the brass be inconsistent? Could some of the cases have more spring back?
I had no way of measuring the thickness of the brass. The outside diameter of loaded brass measured .378-.380. Fired brass measured .384 outside diameter so I knew the die was doing something. I quit worrying about it. I carefully seated the bullets and applied a heavy crimp.
These old Colts were regulated at the factory to shoot to the sights at 15 yards, apparently with a 146-148 grain bullet. The factory 146 grain Remingtons shot to the top of the post front sight at 15 yards and just a tad to the left printing a nice round 2 group. The Lee 125 grain, cast of wheel weights and tumble lubed in liquid Alox goes 126.5 grains. The wadcutter weighs 150. I loaded both of them with a charge of 3.5 grains of Unique. My old Lyman cast bullet hand book gives 3.5 grains as a starting load for a 133 grain bullet and 3.4 grain starting load for a 150 grain so I figured I was safe. The revolver was made in 1919 so I decided a gun that old would never see anything but a suggested starting load. The dipper that came with the Lee dies throws 2.3 grains of Unique. I thought that was treating the old gun too nice.
When dealing with these old revolvers one has to take into account the crude sights, if you can call them sights compared to what comes on revolvers today. So to get that 2 group consistently one has to really have his act together. I dont always have my act together. Both loads shot 2 when everything came together. The wad-cutters shot higher than the factory loads and had notice-ably more recoil. The gun is hard enough to shoot with-out it kicking too much.
Maybe I should have used that Lee dipper for the wadcutters! I shot 18 of them then set them aside figur-ing it was too much like work shooting them. I also didnt want to abuse the old Colt. Looking at the factory Remington bullet it appears to be pure lead; at least its pretty soft because it can be scratched easily with a fin-gernail. The wheel weight bullet is harder and the longer bearing surface of the wadcutter might account for the harsher recoil.
A note on wadcutters and the 38 S+W is in order here. I had to seat the wadcutter up to the crimping groove in order for them to chamber in the gun. There seems to be a pronounced step at the beginning of the throats of my Colt. The factory bullets have a pronounced step with a band measuring .358 just at the case step-ping down to .336.
I suppose this round was designed that way so a heavy bullet could be used and chambered without encroaching on the limited powder space, which is what the wadcutter does. Seating the wadcutter on top of 3.5 grains of Unique sure looks like a compressed load to me. I have since tried the wadcutters using 2.3 grains of unique. They still let you know they went off and feel about like the factory rounds.
The 125 grain bullet, instead of hitting on top of the post as the factory load did, hits just below the post and a little more to the left, enough so that it would be hard to hit a squirrel at 15 yards, but not enough that it would make a difference if the gun is used for its intended pur-pose (which isnt shooting squirrels). Ive settled on the 125 grain bullet for general use as it is accurate enough for plinking and makes the Colt easier to shoot than the heavier bullet. It also has enough zing to shoot clear through a 3 pine landscape timber leaving an impres-sive exit hole for such a pipsqueak round by todays standards.
After I did all this I decided to slug the throats and the bore of the Colt. Finding the throats to be .358 and the bore .355 made me wonder about the .360 specifica-tion for the 38 S+W. My Lyman Manual gives .360 as the bullet diameter used in their testing. They also used a Model 33 Smith as the test firearm. Maybe Colt used the same tooling for the 38S+W as they did for the 38 Special for economic and convenience reasons. Officers Models and OPs in 38 Special from the same era I own have those same dimensions. I dont have any experi-ence with a Smith and Wesson.
Dealing with the loose bullets in the brass is an inconvenience during loading but it isnt that big of a deal. I was concerned about the bullets maybe walking in the case from recoil but there is no evidence of that and I get reliable ignition. If I ever need more brass Ill try another manufacturer like Starline.
I talked my wife into learning to shoot a revolver and the Police Positive seemed a good choice to start out with. It isnt heavy, doesnt recoil much with the 125 grain load, isnt intimidating like a big gun, and if one learns to shoot it one could probably learn to shoot anything. It also has a 6 barrel making it a little easier to hit with than say a 2 snubby.
I find that when first teaching someone to shoot it is better to use a reaction target rather than paper. A reaction target just makes it more fun. I hang a 3# coffee can or something similar in size from a frame about eye level high. For first time shooters I have them stand back about 3-4 yards point the gun at the can and blast away (after some preliminary instruction and dry firing). Students catch on pretty quick. Hitting the target and watching it react gives them confidence. After they start hitting regularly I let them stand wherever they want, to teach them humility. It is fun. My wife is improving. Cans dont stand a chance.
I just had to have a Colt Police Positive to add to my modest collection of Colt service revolvers. The one I bought just happened to be in 38 S+W. Or as Colt called it, the 38 Colt New Police. Once I got it I had to shoot it. I found a couple of boxes of Remington factory 146gr. cartridges. It took no time at all to shoot them up. I bought a set of Lee dies and went to work to reload them.
Ive been reloading for years and everything seemed normal until I went to seat the bullets; the 125 grain Lee round flat nose and 148 grain wadcutters. (I chose those bullets because thats what I have molds for.) They were loose in the sized case. Some would fall in!
Now the 38 S+W is supposed to shoot a .360 diam-eter bullet. My Lee bullets out of the mold go .358-.359. That ought to have been big enough to have at least some tension in a resized case.
I looked at the sizing die and noticed it said it was for a 38 Auto, whatever that is. I thought maybe Lee miss-packaged the die set. I sent a note to Lee. They said that was the correct sizing die. Working at it some more I noticed that some of the cases held the bullet tighter than others. I thought, could the brass be inconsistent? Could some of the cases have more spring back?
I had no way of measuring the thickness of the brass. The outside diameter of loaded brass measured .378-.380. Fired brass measured .384 outside diameter so I knew the die was doing something. I quit worrying about it. I carefully seated the bullets and applied a heavy crimp.
These old Colts were regulated at the factory to shoot to the sights at 15 yards, apparently with a 146-148 grain bullet. The factory 146 grain Remingtons shot to the top of the post front sight at 15 yards and just a tad to the left printing a nice round 2 group. The Lee 125 grain, cast of wheel weights and tumble lubed in liquid Alox goes 126.5 grains. The wadcutter weighs 150. I loaded both of them with a charge of 3.5 grains of Unique. My old Lyman cast bullet hand book gives 3.5 grains as a starting load for a 133 grain bullet and 3.4 grain starting load for a 150 grain so I figured I was safe. The revolver was made in 1919 so I decided a gun that old would never see anything but a suggested starting load. The dipper that came with the Lee dies throws 2.3 grains of Unique. I thought that was treating the old gun too nice.
When dealing with these old revolvers one has to take into account the crude sights, if you can call them sights compared to what comes on revolvers today. So to get that 2 group consistently one has to really have his act together. I dont always have my act together. Both loads shot 2 when everything came together. The wad-cutters shot higher than the factory loads and had notice-ably more recoil. The gun is hard enough to shoot with-out it kicking too much.
Maybe I should have used that Lee dipper for the wadcutters! I shot 18 of them then set them aside figur-ing it was too much like work shooting them. I also didnt want to abuse the old Colt. Looking at the factory Remington bullet it appears to be pure lead; at least its pretty soft because it can be scratched easily with a fin-gernail. The wheel weight bullet is harder and the longer bearing surface of the wadcutter might account for the harsher recoil.
A note on wadcutters and the 38 S+W is in order here. I had to seat the wadcutter up to the crimping groove in order for them to chamber in the gun. There seems to be a pronounced step at the beginning of the throats of my Colt. The factory bullets have a pronounced step with a band measuring .358 just at the case step-ping down to .336.
I suppose this round was designed that way so a heavy bullet could be used and chambered without encroaching on the limited powder space, which is what the wadcutter does. Seating the wadcutter on top of 3.5 grains of Unique sure looks like a compressed load to me. I have since tried the wadcutters using 2.3 grains of unique. They still let you know they went off and feel about like the factory rounds.
The 125 grain bullet, instead of hitting on top of the post as the factory load did, hits just below the post and a little more to the left, enough so that it would be hard to hit a squirrel at 15 yards, but not enough that it would make a difference if the gun is used for its intended pur-pose (which isnt shooting squirrels). Ive settled on the 125 grain bullet for general use as it is accurate enough for plinking and makes the Colt easier to shoot than the heavier bullet. It also has enough zing to shoot clear through a 3 pine landscape timber leaving an impres-sive exit hole for such a pipsqueak round by todays standards.
After I did all this I decided to slug the throats and the bore of the Colt. Finding the throats to be .358 and the bore .355 made me wonder about the .360 specifica-tion for the 38 S+W. My Lyman Manual gives .360 as the bullet diameter used in their testing. They also used a Model 33 Smith as the test firearm. Maybe Colt used the same tooling for the 38S+W as they did for the 38 Special for economic and convenience reasons. Officers Models and OPs in 38 Special from the same era I own have those same dimensions. I dont have any experi-ence with a Smith and Wesson.
Dealing with the loose bullets in the brass is an inconvenience during loading but it isnt that big of a deal. I was concerned about the bullets maybe walking in the case from recoil but there is no evidence of that and I get reliable ignition. If I ever need more brass Ill try another manufacturer like Starline.
I talked my wife into learning to shoot a revolver and the Police Positive seemed a good choice to start out with. It isnt heavy, doesnt recoil much with the 125 grain load, isnt intimidating like a big gun, and if one learns to shoot it one could probably learn to shoot anything. It also has a 6 barrel making it a little easier to hit with than say a 2 snubby.
I find that when first teaching someone to shoot it is better to use a reaction target rather than paper. A reaction target just makes it more fun. I hang a 3# coffee can or something similar in size from a frame about eye level high. For first time shooters I have them stand back about 3-4 yards point the gun at the can and blast away (after some preliminary instruction and dry firing). Students catch on pretty quick. Hitting the target and watching it react gives them confidence. After they start hitting regularly I let them stand wherever they want, to teach them humility. It is fun. My wife is improving. Cans dont stand a chance.
The Colt Police Positive from my experience is a lit-tle delicate. Most of them I look at are out of time and havent had the best of care. Colt quit chambering them in 38 S+W during WWII so all of them are old. I say this recommending caution out of deference to a piece of his-tory when shooting or reloading for these old Colts.
As a defensive round I would recommend something other than the 38 S+W. On the other hand both gun and load will do what they were designed to do over 100 years ago and if thats all ya got, well
Reloading for and shooting the old gun is fun and I figure if a 32 makes a good Bunny Gun the 38 ought to be just as good. At least it makes a great Can Killer.
As a defensive round I would recommend something other than the 38 S+W. On the other hand both gun and load will do what they were designed to do over 100 years ago and if thats all ya got, well
Reloading for and shooting the old gun is fun and I figure if a 32 makes a good Bunny Gun the 38 ought to be just as good. At least it makes a great Can Killer.