I'd like to get opinions about the use of fillers. There was a pretty successful cast bullet shooter a few years back supposedly using sill sealer. There's also Kapok, Dacron, and who knows what else. I'd really like to hear some suggestions and opinions.
Thanks,
Pat Iffland
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I have used Cream of Wheat, but it changes the pressure to the degree it can be felt. I stopped using it because a smith told me that it is abrasive. He gave me the example of looking in the back of a grain truck and noticing how polished up it was.
I hear it works pretty good for removing lead by shooting several cartridges with filler.
What is sill sealer? The only thing that comes to my mind is some type of caulking material??
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One of the original CBA guys, ?Wayne??, from SE Mass. or RI, shot at Old Colony in the late 70s, early 80s. He told us that the CBA had gone through the filler routine and that fillers weren't needed. I was running a 45/70 Rolling Block at the time, and DuPont/IMR was not making SR4759, and I couldn't get Unique to shoot without a Dacron or TP wad-Dacron much better because the TP wouldn't stay down against the powder. ?Wayne? made me feel guilty, so I tried to find a Unique load that shot accurately without a wad, and couldn't -even when velocities began to hurt.
So I accepted the guilt, hung my head, and still use 14 Unique and a Dacron wad.
Then the “Dacron wads ring chambers” story began, many will explain that and how this works, yet examples of actual true cases of it happening are as rare as politicians telling the truth.
I mostly shoot SS rifles, and have found that IMR4227 and AA#9 are not position sensitive and work as well without as with fillers. (Cork or cardboard or plastic wad in the case mouth to hold the powder in while breech seating.) SR4759 works well with a Dacron wad, and equally as well with more powder and no wad. 19 and a wad, 22 and no wad give ~same accuracy.
Cream of Wheat works just fine in BP lower-powered cartridges. A slower more comfortable 45/70 load is 50/FFFg (some say FFg); but that leaves an air space in the case, and we have been warned about that. So, drop the Black Powder, drop the COW on top (seems to work as well with no card or ? wad between the powder and COW as with a wad, if the bullet mashes everything down. This is a nice less recoil accurate load, and it's clean. Prime with ~5 gr. of about any of the slower smokelesses and it's real clean.
This also works fine in 40/50 Sharps Straight, 38/55, 40/65 and other straight walled cases.
I've used COW fillers in 30/06, 30/30, 303 British, 30/40 ~ others because it was used in Krags 100 years ago; but recently there has been a lot of talk about COW forming a “hard clump” and maybe blowing the gun up. Again, real life examples are between rare and non-existant. Anyhow, the COW in bottlenecked cases never did anything worth continuing the use with the (maybe mythical) risk.
COW in low-medium velocity loads and unlubricated byllets leaves no leading. I've done this a lot, following Norm Johnson, trying to understand what lubes do.
When making 40-1 7/8 SS cases from 30/40? cases, I thought I'd blow the cases out by shooting a 30 cal lead bullet in the 40, and I did, and it blew the cases out wonderfully. However, the lead was impressive in the barrel. More than I've ever seen, the rifling was invisible. On advice, I loaded 40 cal bullets at low speed with COW over the powder, and a dozen shots cleaned the barrel. ?6 Unique?
I've used some plastic powder I got from the shotgun guys, maybe Grex but I don't know. Also used coffee, corn muffin mix, oatmeal (very light) and who knows what else.
Outside of the LV BP straight sided case loads such as 45/70, I've never had a filler such as COW make a more accurate load.
With Unique in big cases, 45/70 or 300 WM, and in 30/06 and 30/30 and others, a Dacron wad has generally helped accuracy. Standard 300 WM load was 17/Unique and Dacron and 311299.
But, some say Dacron causes ringed chambers.
Somebody gave me some kapok, it worked, but so does Dacron, and where do you get kapok? Some advocate cotton, but if you tamp the cotton down on the powder and then the cartridges get jostled in the motorcycle, the cotton comes up odff the powder. Dacron doesn't. TP does also. Somebody wrote about milkweed pod stuff, I used it, it worked, but it's embarassing. Paper towel, wads cut from a sheet of plastic foam, none of it worked better than Dacron-but the RISK!!!
Fillers are like COW, fill the case between powder and bullet base. Wads, like Dacron, to me, are teased balls of fluff as big as a dime/nickel, tamped down on the powder with a pencil eraser.
I think that one should avoid the use of wads and fillers, select the right powder and save the time and risk. IMR4227, AA#9 (some say #2), 5744 all seem to work without eads and fillers.
joe brennan
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After a bit of research I've decided to try shotgun buffer and see what happens. I'm only going to be using a small amount of filler to fill the case to the rim so it might work out. P-wads are supposed to not work either but I use them in my 6.5 successfully and there's other good shooters who use them. The plastic buffer should act about the same as the P-Wads mechanically and filling the case up with a little compression should keep the powder from migrating into the buffer. I load at the range so any jostling from transport isn't an issue. Up to this point the gun seems to shoot with some accuracy in the 2600 fps range with H322 so I'll adjust the powder to that speed using the filler.
Not to beat a dead horse but while I respect other people's opinions I've found that in most cases you have to try something yourself to be absolutely sure they're accurate 100% of the time. Even if the buffer doesn't solve my ES problem there will still be times a filler is the best medicine. Ideally if I could get a powder that got rid of the velocity issue without a filler it'd be best but as of now a filler seems my best choice to try. I don't know if there's any interest in what I'm doing but I'll continue to post my honest results, which by the amount of ragged one hole groups being shot on the internet isn't as common as some people might think.
I have three different premium lubes coming to try out, making four total, so I'll be able to give a bit of a comparison test on the issue of if lubes made a difference in my case to go along with Pete's. I personally know two of the lube producers and respect the other two but will post my honest results with the caveat that just because one performed better than another in my experience doesn't mean your results could be completely different.
Pat
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Pat,
Gerry and I seemed to always talk about an OP wad, since we tip muzzle-up often in our 308 and 30-06 loads. I first tried Styrofoam plate material for an OP wad and it worked great, but would tear and not settle square against the powder when pushed through the neck. I've tried sill-plate material which is easier to push through the neck onto the powder, but with a little decrease in accuracy in the 30 calibers. I've also tried a tuff of cotton (since I didn't happen to have Kapok or Dacron) tamped down over the powder with good results.
I think whatever is used, the smallest amount is preferable to avoid the 'ringed chamber' syndrome. That is why I like the Styrofoam plate material. Back in the 80's, an old guy in my home-town club tore up a woman's tampon his wife got for a sample in the mail. He used the material for an OP wad and thought it was great! Just when I think OP wads are a great thing, Gerry tried it in his rifle with really bad accuracy results. We both used the same type a rifle, cartridge, alloy, bullet and powder, but Gerry uses Alox and I use MTL. Whatever the cause, OP wads do not work for Gerry...............Dan
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Dan,
Tipping the rifle would be the ideal solution but not practical in my instance. Since the buffer will end up filling the case to the rim worrying about a wad becoming separated from the powder is a non issue. But remember I'm talking about using a small amount and not filling a case full of the stuff over 10 grs of Unique. I plan on attending the next match and will have some with me if you or Gerry are interested in trying it. Don't know if it'll help but it seems safe.
You didn't mention if the tampon was before or after use, might make a big difference in results. A plus if it was after use is that you sure wouldn't have any problem finding a spot to load if you loaded at the range!!!
Pat
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Pat,
I've read about Puflon as a rifle case filler but never seen anyone try it, but yer shotgun filler idea ought to work. I found a web post on a thread about Puflon that might interest you and some others:
Gerry and I aren't interested in fillers as to say, just a wad to hold the powder in position against the primer, thanks anyway............Dan
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Guys,
Someone on the old Shooter.com used to recommend styrafoam packing nuggets, and I cannot see why they would not work.
I never tried any fillers, myself. Maybe someone who has downloaded the archived Shooters.com that we have on file here can do a search on it.
lmcollins
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Pat,
I've read about Puflon as a rifle case filler but never seen anyone try it, but yer shotgun filler idea ought to work. I Dan,
So to not be accused of being a plagiarizer the buffer idea isn't mine. The first time I read of it was in Veral Smith's book, required reading in my opinion. If it's his original ideas or came from somewhere else I can't say.
So not to confuse anyone I have very few original thoughts when it comes to cast bullets but if I pass something along it's because my experiences agreed with the original thinkers. Of course your results may vary.
Pat
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Precision Reloading .... carries all kinds of shotshell loading components, has a neat little flyer that is quite interesting .... they carry the teflon? buffer / shot buffer to keep round shot round when fired ...
I have used this for years, no problems ( yet ); I can't tell if it is more accurate .... but it does help ignition in big cases.... but just wait until I get my 1/2 moa caster bullet rig going ... hey wait, it's been 40 years ... maybe next week??
Oh, I also have used 1/2 square toilet paper, and also a ball of dacron ( wally world materials department ) ... the TP is the most fun, it lands about 8 ft in front of the bench, kinda embarrassing ...
hope this helps ken campbell, deltawerkes
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Thanks to everyone for there help and ideas. I'll let you know the results soon.
Pat
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Gee Whiz, I started another thread on this subject and now I find that sill seal will work for wadding or fill in large cases. and it's like $5.00 a roll at Lowes.
I will try it to see if it works. Then let every one know. Some of my cases are bottle neck, how well does it work for those?
Thanks,
Jerry
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Dear TomG,
I used kapok fiilers long ago and had good results .I have read they may be dangerous,and,asthey introduce more variables and more loading operations I stopped the practice.
I use Italian shotgun powders ignited by rem 9-1/2 mag rifle primers (SIPE or Cheddite Granulare S)for target loads and have no problems.
For hunting Vihtavuori 110 burns OK with the same primers.
Ed Harris uses no fillers and Win large rifle primers.
I believe the accuracy problem with the Marlin 45/70 is in who makes the moulds and not in powders or wads.I have a 400 gr.bevel base marlin 4 cavity mold from LBT,that beats all my collection of moulds,Lee,Lyman RCBS,Hoch,saeco etcoetera.
Veral really knows what nose shape and base diameter the marlin gun lkes,either micro grooved or with ballard rifling
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Tom,
I have one of Veral's 405 gr. 45 Cal. Marlin moulds with one cavity gas check and the other plain base. I never tried to shoot the pb cavity sub sonic but it shot pretty good at 1300 fps. If I remember right it casts at .461 in WW. If you want to try it out drop me a note and I'll send it down.
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Tom I havent tired this personally yet, but I hear from the bpcr guys that there is a mold from Lee that is hollow base, sort of has a dished base actually, that shoots like a house of fire with low charge loads. They are shooting it with COW as a filler and are getting sub moa at a hundred yards. This is in lever guns and I have seen them out shooting at the club and this is with either bp or smokeless with light charges. Not sure what the velocity is though. They claim that the dished base expands out into the grooves and I think they are using soft alloy like 20 or 30 to 1.
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I have used Cream of Wheat, but it changes the pressure to the degree it can be felt. I stopped using it because a smith told me that it is abrasive. He gave me the example of looking in the back of a grain truck and noticing how polished up it was.
I hear it works pretty good for removing lead by shooting several cartridges with filler.
What is sill sealer? The only thing that comes to my mind is some type of caulking material??I know this is an old thread but no one answered his question.
From Dupont: STYROFOAMâ„¢ SILL SEAL Foam Gasket is a flexible polyethylene foam gasketing strip that can help reduce air infiltration between a concrete foundation and sill plate, around windows and doors ”€œ and even between floors. The closed-cell polyethylene foam compresses to seal gaps in irregular surfaces, helping reduce air infiltration for a tighter building envelope and enhanced energy savings. It provides excellent and enduring resistance to water and water vapor.
Available at lowes and home depot
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A couple of years ago, I was playing with a .416 Remington on a 'ruger #1. I was shooting 350gr RCBS bullet cast from pure linotype. Started with 50 gr. of IMR4895 and was working up. I got to thinking about all the empty space in the case and started putting a 1 inch square of dacron quilt batting in the case and topping it off with Super Grex buckshot buffer.(filled to the base of the neck)The last loads I played with was up to 70 grains of IMR4895 and they shot into about 2 inches at 200 yards.
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A couple of years ago, I was playing with a .416 Remington on a 'ruger #1. I was shooting 350gr RCBS bullet cast from pure linotype. Started with 50 gr. of IMR4895 and was working up. I got to thinking about all the empty space in the case and started putting a 1 inch square of dacron quilt batting in the case and topping it off with Super Grex buckshot buffer.(filled to the base of the neck)The last loads I played with was up to 70 grains of IMR4895 and they shot into about 2 inches at 200 yards.
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I've used dacron filler on reduced 223 rounds w/ good success. A word of caution though- if any of your firearms have brakes- I would strongly suggest not using any at all.
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I will not fire any round that has a fill of less then 90% with out a bit of danron quilt batting in it. I fire maybe 2500 cast rifle rounds a year with out one chamber ring.
All my reloading is aimed toward hunting so lifting the barrel is out of the question.
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Aaron
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jeff houck
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Tom Acheson
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Wilderness
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John Carlson
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sghart3578
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MarkinEllensburg
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sluggo
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Spindrift
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alphabrass
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