Need an opinion on some 9mm sizing

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zhughes posted this 19 October 2016

Hi all,(New to reloading, have all the equipment, still doing research before loading my first rounds) I have a 124gr 6-cavity Lee mold (although they've been consistently weighing 128gr) that consistently births .357 bullets.I slugged my barrel (S&W Shield 9mm), it looks to be .354.I don't think it matters, but for what it's worth, I'm powder coating the bullets as well. Anyone know if that's going to be too tight...should I size the bullets down to .356 or do you think three thousandths will be ok? As an interesting side note, I slugged my barrel with a powder coated bullet, then one that had yet to be coated. The powder coated bullet was much harder to push down the barrel. Thanks for your help!Zach

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Brodie posted this 19 October 2016

Zach, Almost every chamber and barrel are a law unto themselves..  Yes, 9mm is supposed to be .356, but 45ACP is supposed to be .452, and none of mine are.  What you want to do is size the bullet just small enough that a loaded round will chamber smoothly and reliably.  If that is .355 , .356, .357 or whatever that is the size you want them to be for best accuracy.  Jacketed bullets can get away with being a little smaller  than the bore and throat, and still hold the rifling and give decent accuracy, and of course no leading, but cast must fit or even be .001 to .002 over groove diameter.  Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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zhughes posted this 19 October 2016

Hi Brodie, thanks for your response. With your experience, since the difference is .003, would you try a few rounds like that first or would go ahead and size down a thousandth to .356 to get that .002 difference. From what I've been reading .001 - .002 seem to be typical tolerances, but I'm not sure if I'd run into problems trying to shoot slightly bigger bullets than what seems to be the norm... .003 over groove instead of 1-2. Thanks!

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Brodie posted this 19 October 2016

I would make a couple of dummy rounds up starting with the largest bullet I had and working my way down. If you get too small they will lead. If they lead use a COPPER CHORE BOY pad wrapped around an old bore brush. It scrubs the lead out pretty quickly. Just be sure that the pad is all Copper not steel copper plated. If it has any steel in it you will damage the barrel. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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onondaga posted this 19 October 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=10460>zhughes

Both Lee 124 gr 9mm bullet designs, the RN and the SWC are tumble lube bevel base designs with micro tumble lube grooves. Follow Lee instructions and don't jump to conclusions that your bullets are wrong. Lightly tumble lube the bullets and load a few rounds or make dummy loads.

Cycling the bullets will tell you 2 very important things: 1. if they cycle they are not too big for your firearm. 2. if they don't cycle and show scratches on the bullet from failed chambering, they need to be sized to the largest size that will function.

The force needed to chamber one that is too big won't stop you. Cycle it forcefully and then measure it. Get a bullet sizing die 1/2 of 1 one thousandth of an inch (.0005") smaller.

The TL designs are the easiest to get shooting well in 9mm. Try them un-sized and very lightly tumble lubed one coat before you make any decisions.

When your bullets fit and function well, lube is the least important thing to worry about. That and Alloy. You will need at least BHN 15 to hold up to 9mm cast bullet load levels. Lyman #2 or Hardball are both BHN 15. Anything softer or smaller than the best fit invites leading and reduced accuracy regardless of lube.

Gary

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Brodie posted this 19 October 2016

Zach, What Gary said is very good advice.  Although you do not have to have a tumble lube design to tumble lube them.  Warm the lube in hot water and add a little mineral spirits (about 10% of the total volume of the lube) .  Warm the bullets lube lightly in some container and roll them around and back and forth until they take on a matte grey appearance.  Dump lubed bullets onto a cookie sheet (don't use your Wife's, get a dedicated one) and set to dry.  DO THIS OUTSIDE.  IT STINKS UP THE PLACE.

I would try the bullets as cast first.  If they work without sizing so much the better. 

I have not powder coated yet myself, but like all things in this game it is not a fix-all.  Fit is king.  If you have to size the bullets down before powder coating you can use a little liquid dish detergent (Dawn or Joy) to ease the sizing process and wash it off afterward.

Best of luck and just jump in there and give it a shot. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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gpidaho posted this 19 October 2016

zhughes: +1 on what Brodie says about using Dawn dishsoap to lube the bullets for a push through sizer. It rinses right off pre powder coat, witch is my way off dealing with the bullet lubing also. Gp

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onondaga posted this 19 October 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=10460>zhughes

There is a lot of fixation of slugging barrels. It is a lot of hooey.  The barrel sizes the cast bullets after they get fired through the chamber that is supposed to be bigger.  Cast bullets need to fit the throat, that is simply it to fitting cast bullets. They aren't jacketed bullets that would cause huge pressure spikes if they are too big. Lead alloys are used specifically because they size easily upon firing.

EXAMPLE:

My .458 WM rifle slugs at .4570", I size my bullets to a sliding throat fit at .461” because that is what demonstrates a fit on an inked bullet. So my bullets are .004” bigger than slugged diameter. This is normal for cast bullet fit. The .004” is not the important number. It is the sliding fit to chamber regardless of the number. The barrel would size the bullets even if the throat was much larger, even .010". The pressure of firing will size them to fit very easily.

Bore slugging is irrelevant to selecting cast bullet size. If you believe it is, you lack understanding of cast bullet fit. Bore slugging will indicate how much a bullet that fits the throat will be sized on firing by the barrel and there is no measurement relevance other than that.

The old wrinkled shooters tale that you need bullets a certain number of thousandths of an inch bigger than your bore G to G diameter is a misguided tale from antiquity for a guide to fitting bullets in muzzle loaders that don't use cartridges in chambers at all. That  slugging tradition is old misinformation from muzzle loaders that is not relevant at all to cartridge guns shooting cast bullets.  Get over it.

If you don't have a clue why cast bullets should fit the throat, here is the reason: Bullets beginning their journey down the bore shoot most accurately when they start from a stable fit to the throat. If they have wiggle room, they continue to wiggle down the bore and shoot all over the place compared to a bullet that fits and starts from a stable fit. That is just very old news that some people ignore or fail to work around to get cast bullets to shoot well.

Gary 

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45 2.1 posted this 19 October 2016

onondaga wrote: If you don't have a clue why cast bullets should fit the throat, here is the reason: Bullets beginning their journey down the bore shoot most accurately when they start from a stable fit to the throat. If they have wiggle room, they continue to wiggle down the bore and shoot all over the place compared to a bullet that fits and starts from a stable fit. That is just very old news that some people ignore or fail to work around to get cast bullets to shoot well.  Gary-   In the engineering profession, Statics is the study of objects at rest and Dynamics is the study of objects in motion. That stable fit you mention is worthless if that object does not enter the bore straight in relation to it's centerline and remain in that configuration thru exit. That is Dynamics and very few here talk about it. There are several items you don't mention that control accuracy far more than what you've mentioned. Unfortunately, the large percentage of shooters refuse to acknowledge those items.

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onondaga posted this 19 October 2016

I keep it as simple as I can.  I understand what you say and add if you have a rifle with a throat not concentric to the bore, you have 3rd world quality junk.

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rockquarry posted this 20 October 2016

Some excellent advise posted here. 

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harleyrock posted this 20 October 2016

Onadaga: Are you saying bullet fit in the throat is everything?  I know you said slugging is not necessary, that inking the bullet for a sliding fit will do, but I had just finished slugging the throat and first half inch or so of the bore of my Win. '94  30-30 before I read that. The throat is .3315” in diameter and .116 in length.  The bore groove to groove diameter is .309 the lands are .30085.  Does this mean that I should be using a .3315” diameter bullet?  I have a mould for 8x57 that is .314” in the bore ride section and .325” in the driving bands.  I have not tried this bullet in a dummy round yet because I just in the last 15 minutes read this thread.  But is this 8mm bullet more likely to be the better bullet than the .301/.309 bullet? Rocky

Lifetime NRA since 1956, NRA Benefactor, USN Member, CBA Member

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onondaga posted this 20 October 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=8992>harleyrock,  

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_user.php?id=8992>The chamber of a 30-30 is not designed for bore riding bullets, it has a steep transition to barrel.

 I am saying that cast bullet fit to the throat is the first concern for fitting cast bullets and having maximum accuracy potential.

I am saying you shouldn't care what the numbers are. Use the largest cast bullet diameter that will slide in easily and chamber, then fire it.

Your number sounds high and I didn't measure your stuff. You shouldn't care about that either. If they slide in and show marks on an inked bullet dummy round, load some up that way and  shoot them. Do you understand that?

Be sensible too. if your chamber throat is worn or damaged to an insanely big dimension, don't be insane and keep junk, get rid of it. You can look up SAAMI or Winchester 30-30  chamber dimensions for your caliber and decide if what you have is junk because it is so large compared to SAAMI or Winchester. Personally, for me .002"+ over in throat dimension is junk to be tossed or traded.

SAAMI Winchester 30-30 cartridge and chamber dimensions: http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/30-30%20Winchester.pdf>http://www.saami.org/pubresources/ccdrawings/Rifle/30-30%20Winchester.pdf

SAAMI says .3307 throat , you have .3315, you decide, but a .309” cast bullet diameter is too small to expect accuracy in a 30-30 with cast bullets. A .3115” sized RD 165fngc seated to the crimp groove and crimped works in my lever rifle and passes the ink test showing skid marks on chambering while also shooting better than any factory jacketed ammo. Mine is an old 92' and the bullets slide into the taper at the end of the throat as 30-30s are designed to do with cast bullets. Get your rifle doing that and that is the best you can do. Both the Lee 150 and 170 FNGCs for 30-30 stunk and shot all over the place for me till I Honed the mold driving bands to .3125” and sized/checked the bullets .3125” for my rifle. I use 31 cal Aluminum (sagesoutdoors.com) checks made for .303 Brit. That check is a serious recommendation from me too as 30 cal checks won't seal my rifle.

If you really want a heavier bullet for your 30-30 the Lee C312-185-1R sizes and checks fine at .3125'” for my 30-30 also but the 8mm bullets nose is too big to practically seat in a 30-30 chamber unless you nose size it to slide in and band size it to your throat.

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 October 2016

i don't shoot 30-30 but i would think that without much of a real throat of around 0.308-0.310..... the 30-30 would need a bore-riding nose design to give best accuracy ....

you would think a full diameter design ... such as loverin...would have to be seated very deeply in the case, with just the stubby nose peeking out ...

just wandering ...

ken

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onondaga posted this 21 October 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: i don't shoot 30-30 but i would think that without much of a real throat of around 0.308-0.310..... the 30-30 would need a bore-riding nose design to give best accuracy ....

you would think a full diameter design ... such as loverin...would have to be seated very deeply in the case, with just the stubby nose peeking out ...

just wandering ...

ken Ken , the 30-30 throat is very different from say a .308 Win where the .308 throat spec is .3442 to fit .3434 brass, .309 bullets and is a lot longer. The 30-30 throat specs at .3307 and is very short for lever rifle feed of cartridge neck and bullet. There is wiggle room in the neck area for the lever type of action, not specifically for the bullet at all. . The freebore of the neck in a 30-30 takes a steep angle to the barrel much differently than a 308 W.  and the 30-30 cast bullets need to slide into the slope or what is called the Ball seat. Sure nose riding bullets can be fit to this dimensional arrangement, but it is an unnecessary complication with a cooperating bullet design like the RanchDog 30-30 bullet design or most bullets designed specifically for the 30-30 like the 2 Lee bullets when the bands are sized to slide into the ballseat. The bearing area of 30-30 bullets is so long with cast bullets that a nose riding bullet is duplicitous and unnecessary for accuracy when the cast bullet slides into the ball seat on cambering.. Sure, some will disagree with that and me and may get a balance that works well with bore riding bullets, But that takes custom molds, custom sizing twice for the bullet and is unnecessary to get a 30-30 to shoot it's best.

Jacketed bullets in the 30-30 are not designed to bear into the ball seat at all, they are related to bore dimensions and cant take advantage of what a cast bullet can do when they have a stable start. This is why cast bullets generally shoot better in an old 30-30 than jacketed bullets do.

I hope that clarifies why I have made the recommendations. If you get the RD or similar 30-30 cast bullet correctly fitting a 30-30 there is great joy to be had easily.

Gary

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 21 October 2016

i remain confused, ...how do you get a 0.311 nose levered into a 0.301 bore diameter hole ?

i will meditate on this and perhaps the 3-in-the-morning epiphany that i rely on to get through life will visit me......or hey maybe i need a 30-30 saami rifle !!! yeah !!!

i did have a fun gun handi-rifle in 30-30 but i just shot ( short seated ) plinking 314 wad cutters in it for visitor's fun at 25 yards.... got some new shooters !! doesn't get any better than jumping bean cans !! that long neck on the 30-30 is kinda handy ...and yes krag ...

anybody wanna trade your “ok” marlin 30-30 for a nice remmy 721 in 30-06....or a nice remmy 722 in 300 savage ?? if pm me.

ken

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onondaga posted this 21 October 2016

Ken Campbell Iowa wrote: i remain confused, ...how do you get a 0.311 nose levered into a 0.301 bore diameter hole ?

ken  The RanchDog bullet seated to the crimp groove has no nose ride section. It gently ogives to a big flat nose and the thickest exposed area of the bullet is what matches throat diameter.  The diameter at the  ball seat contact is part of the ogive and slides in a bit on chambering because it is at the SAAMI location. The bullet is designed to do that. Your Handi rifle would love those bullets or the ACCURATE mold company copies. Just size and seat them so they will chamber when they fit the ball seat and you can ignore the crimp on a single shot. that makes it the easiest. The 30-30 Ranchdog bullets are well designed for 30-30 lever rifles specifically to do this.  Just don't size them down so much that you lose the feature of the design and they will be the best shooting bullet for your Handi.

Here is the RD165 drawing, note the forward band for throat diameter and the ogive taper that will hit and slide into the ball seat of a 30-30 chamber. it's the tits for a 30-30:

 http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165DG-D.png>http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletdetail.php?bullet=31-165DG-D.png

Ken, I'd like to resolve your questions, PM me your mailing address and I will send you 25 RDs as cast and 25 RDs sized/checked .312". That is plenty to see you can do what I am saying and get a good ink test for your 30-30 Handi-Rifle. My alloy is certified #2. If less bullets will do for your test,let me know.

Gary

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OU812 posted this 22 October 2016

Winchester 9mm brass is a little thinner than most and will allow a larger sized diameter bullet for good feeding. Check thickness and compare with other 9mm brass.

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tturner53 posted this 22 October 2016

I recall reading an article on 9mm cb accuracy. IIRC, one of the major factors to accurate ammo was starting with brass of equal lengths. Can't recall the source but I remember it was a thorough test.

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