I am going to need to upgrade my melter. It is too small and temp control and dross in the ladle is getting tough.
Do you guys ladle or bottom pour?
the bottom pur helps with not drossing out all your tin but they can clog.
Do you use a seperate pot to alloy or ingot?
Why do you use the method that you do?
thanks
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Do you guys ladle or bottom pour?
Do you use a seperate pot to alloy or ingot?
Why do you use the method that you do?
I do all my smelting or rough cleaning in a seperate metal pot over a propane gas burner (fish fryer) and this keeps the majority of the trash out of the casting pot. It also allows for various sized melts if alloying for a specific purpose. You have the option of just rough cleaning so you have a compact ingot for storage, or do it right so you have alloy clean enough to go directly into the casting furnace. You will not be able to do that with a 10 pound casting furnace.
I use a bottom pour casting furnace the great majority of the time. I do use a ladle to pour sample bullets from a melt so I can test them after ageing for hardness. The bottom pour pot gives me the opportunity to cast with a continuous stream and pull or push the multi cavity mold under the nozzle to fill the cavities all in one motion. Or I can start/stop the flow and fill each individual cavity. The distance between the nozzle and the sprue plate can be adjusted to accomadate the need of the mold you are using. I can also place the sprue plate directly against the nozzle to pressure fill the mold.
Saeco recently changed the sprue hole in the plate on their #221 (22cal 60 grain bullet) and now that mold requires I either use the ladle or pressure fill each cavity for good fill out. It turns out great bullets, but for most of the shooting, I have used the old style plate with the larger hole to speed things up. To pressure feed the molds, you almost have to use the 10 pound pot because the nozzle of the 20 pound pot does not contact the sprue plate quite right and it is so far back under the pot it is difficult to see and use.
While the ladle caster may have the potential to produce more consistant bullets, I do not really believe that it gives an advantage to the pistol shooter, and I mostly cast and shoot pistol. Basically, it will depend upon what the individual becomes most comfortable with, and the speed of casting is secondary. Duane Mellenbruch Topeka, KS
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I do all my smelting or rough cleaning in a seperate metal pot over a propane gas burner (fish fryer) and this keeps the majority of the trash out of the casting pot. It also allows for various sized melts if alloying for a specific purpose. You have the option of just rough cleaning so you have a compact ingot for storage, or do it right so you have alloy clean enough to go directly into the casting furnace. You will not be able to do that with a 10 pound casting furnace.
I use a bottom pour casting furnace the great majority of the time. I do use a ladle to pour sample bullets from a melt so I can test them after ageing for hardness. The bottom pour pot gives me the opportunity to cast with a continuous stream and pull or push the multi cavity mold under the nozzle to fill the cavities all in one motion. Or I can start/stop the flow and fill each individual cavity. The distance between the nozzle and the sprue plate can be adjusted to accomadate the need of the mold you are using. I can also place the sprue plate directly against the nozzle to pressure fill the mold.
While the ladle caster may have the potential to produce more consistant bullets, I do not really believe that it gives an advantage to the pistol shooter. I agree with Duane whole-heartedly. Do all the dirty work in a dedicated pot, a lowes fish fryer works great, holds 100 # of lead and cost $40. Flux several times, stirring vigorously to get all the junk out, make a large batch of one alloy and cast ingots. I use bottom pour 20# Lee for all but big, heavy bullets (500+ gn .45) and some .30 rifle, where I find I get better results ladle pouring.
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Like most things, Vassal, it depends what you want to do. The guy who wants only to cast 200 bullets a month is served perfectly well by a 10lb melter. But you'll want to commit hari kiri trying to cast bigger volumes with a 10lb pot. I tend to regard 20lb as the minimum. 20lb is enough for most things, but is a bit limited for feeding a pair of big calibre multi cavity moulds working together.
The key to big volume casting is not the size of the pot, it is its ability to accept continuous feeding with prepared ingots. You keep the pot full by dropping in a fresh ingot every couple of minutes. For this, the pot needs to be big enough to melt the fresh ingot in a few seconds without significant change in temperature. A 20lb pot will do this in some circumstances but will be marginal with big calibre multi cavity moulds. The alternative is to run a second pot whose purpose is to provide hot top up alloy for the main pot.
Yes, I melt and cast ingots in bulk as a separate operation. You guys are privileged that you can get fish fryers that will melt 100lb of alloy for $40. I had a pot made up from steel pipe, plus a stand, that I fire with bottled gas. It will melt 55lb and will produce 220lb in a morning's work. If you shoot more than very small volumes its the only way to go yet so few casters do it.
I got into some trouble on my first visit to this forum by saying that you can cast quality rifle bullets only by dipper. OK, I exaggerated a bit, but lets say that the advantages are such that I do all my casting by dipper. Being a commercial caster conscious of production speed I have timed all these things often. Dipper casting is about 10% slower on the face of it. But it gets fewer rejects and more consistent quality. Alsom for reasons I can't explain, it will cast decent bullets with slightly contaminated alloy ( copper, tin, zinc ) when bottom pour won't. There are other peculiarities like cavities in the same mould that need different pressures. Those are more easily handled with dipper. All these factors put together made dipper casting slightly faster than bottom pour especially with multi cavity moulds, and especially if tyou want consistent good quality. Some guys will dispute that, so I say whatever works for you is OK with me, but it is based on 20 years experience and a lot of careful testing and observation prompted by the need to get both quantity and qulity at the same time.
I see that Dollar Bill gets better quality rifle bullets with dipper. So do I. There is a peculiarity of bottom pour pots that is too long to explain here, maybe some other time, that is cured by dipper casting.
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I use to dip, then went back to my bottom pour. Now you have me thinking, I'll do some comparisons for my match bullets. When I'm cranking out volume bullets for casual blasting or even semi-serious target shooting I like the convenience of my little Lee 10 lb. pot. Gets me going quick, when I need to make some bullets now. I've been casting for a long time, did fine and was happy in my innocence(ignorance) before I joined up here! Now I'm getting picky.
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...was happy in my innocence(ignorance) before I joined up here! Now I'm getting picky.
A little learning makes me realize how much I don't know.
Discouraging, ain't it?
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...was happy in my innocence(ignorance) before I joined up here! Now I'm getting picky.
A little learning makes me realize how much I don't know.
Discouraging, ain't it? Sometimes, but then I go back to the basics of why I got into this sport. Cast some bullets and go shoot up some plastic milk jugs, off-hand, maybe some of those 4” clay targets. Just have some fun.
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My dad cast bullets with a little cast iron skillet on a Coleman stove, that's the way he taught me. When me and my older brother were teenagers, we decided to go in and buy a bottom pour pot. We never could get that thing to work right. I'm sure we could have with more patience or some help but all I can remember is how aggravating that thing was.
When I started back casting a few years ago there was no question in my mind I would do it with a ladle. I still have no desire to own a bottom pour pot.
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I should add that I love every minute of it, I like the challenge and opportunity to try new things. And I've really enjoyed being a CBA member. Here's a weird question for you. What if you filled your dipper from a bottom pour spout? I know, why would you do that? My point is how does the mold know the difference? How does the alloy know the difference?
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Clean in a separate pot. I've found FARRR better results with ladle pour but that may just be me. When I bottom pour I'd get about 10-15% rejects (combined weight and visual). Ladle, though slower, gives me almost 100% perfect.
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Here's a weird question for you. What if you filled your dipper from a bottom pour spout? I know, why would you do that? My point is how does the mold know the difference? How does the alloy know the difference?
The difference is pressure, for one thing. The actual pressure of the discharge is controlled by the height of the column of liquid.
The other thing, I've found, is that impurities tend to stick to the sides of the pot, as well as the stem of the spout that shuts off or allows the alloy to flow. So I tend to get more rejects from visible contaminates on/in the bullets. I really like my Rowell bottom pour ladle. I guess I just need more practice, as the guys who've been ladle casting along time say their production rate is not that much slower.
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Wowwee, Thanks for the input.
I was concerned that ladle pouring was causing too much trouble with breaking the surface and allowing more dross to form, but if high volume guys are doing it, it musn't be that bad. I personally cast low volume and wish to concentrate most intently on rifle bullets (when I get a good mold that is.) So it seems like ladle pour is my route.
I usually get more rejects than 10-15% though. I think the little four lb LEE pot fluctuates too much in temp. That coupled with the fact that I clean WW and cast from the same small pot probably causes most of them.
boy oh boy my bullets must be crap! (pardon)
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I have been casting bullets for over fifty years. I have been a competitive shooter for most of those years. That means quantity as well as quality.
I, like most, started out casting with a dipper. I graduated when I became more affluent (was now making $20.00 per week:D) and bought a Lyman 11 lb bottom pour pot. An older friend “showed me the way” with multi cavity moulds and bottom pour pots.
At any rate, the learning curve was a bit steep but I learned and haven't dipper cast in forty years or so. I shot BPCR Silhouette for about fifteen years and I was competitive with my bottom pour BIG bullets.
Now, I mostly shoot pistol and revolvers and use multi-cavity moulds, all bottom pour.
Some prefer dipper casting and some prefer bottom pour. I can routinely do 700 match quality .45 ACP bullets in an hour to an hour and a half. I would be lucky to do more than a hundred or so an hour with a dipper.
But, that's just me...
FWIW Dale53
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I've been casting since the early 70s and I never did like the ladle. I use a Lyman that I bought new back then and have had to refurbish one time inside and replace the electric cord once. I hold all my moulds to pressure pour and that is the best way for me. Another thing I do is when I heard years ago that you put your mould on the side of the pot to warm up and cast until you got good cast, I thought a better way is to have the pot full when cold and when you plug in the juice just have your mould in contact with the lead. The moulds won't warp because they heat at the same time as the lead and get more heat quickly that way. I like to start with a very hot temp and then cut back as I find where the temp is best for the alloy I am using. Of course Lee moulds say to just stick the corner in the melt even when the mould is cold. I've tried that with Lyman moulds too and so far I 've never warped a mould. Might happen some day but that is why I just put the mould on the cold melt and let it heat up at the same speed the melt does.
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I'd better be careful 'cos I've gotten myself into hot water for having too strong opinions about some things. My experience has been close to that of Big Boar. I have always had a significant percentage of rejects with bottom pour. They have been holes in bases (Typically 1 in 30 ) poor fill out, dirt inclusions and various other faults. That's despite determined attempts to sort out, like different alloy, every possible temperature, pouring height (pressure) you name it. I get close to zero defect with ladle casting, maybe one or two percent.
That takes care of the quality issue. Now for speed. 10 - 15% rejects would be OK if the speed were 25% faster. It isn't. I know that commercial casting isn't everything but I hope it will be conceded that those of us who have to make it pay have checked out everything. I have carefully timed output with various moulds. As an average, ladle casting is about 10% slower than bottom pour, but because of the rejects it is no slower and if anything is slightly faster. For me it was no contest. Why would I cast bottom pour with 15% rejects if I can get the same output with zero rejects ?
Don't forget that rejects have to be culled out. I used to inspect them when lubing. That slowed me down in two ways. First, having to inspect them takes at least a second, and secondly I had 15% more of them through my hands when lubing.
How fast is fast ? Dale53 casts 700 in 60 to 90 minutes. The average is close to 600 per hour. That's fast, about what I get in commercial casting. I don't always get it with the big calibres which tend to be slower, and sometimes you slow down from fatigue in an eight hour session. But the point is that I get that with a ladle.
Quality is not necessarily much different between the two methods for handguns but ladle casting is noticeably superior for rifle bullets and I see that I'm not the only one to say that. I don't know why it is superior. I have noticed, though, that quality deteriorates slightly with bottom pour with long slim bullets. Here's a tip if you want flawless rifle bullets that look chrome plated. Its an old technique, not my invention. Hold the mould sideways facing the dipper. Bring the dipper spout into hard contact with the countersink of the pouring hole of the sprue cutter. Rotate the pair as a unit through 90 degrees. At first you will have some trouble controlling the flood of alloy but a bit of practice will fix that.
A refinement is that, when the cavity is almost full, withdraw the dipper spout by rolling it off as the alloy floods out enough to form the sprue. Comes with practice. Works only with single cavity moulds. Can be used with double cavity but you have to treat it as a single cavity, ie use only one cavity.
There's no denying that it's slow. For 30 cal you can expect 200 per hour, but they will be flawless in appearance and very weight consistent.
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Dicko, I think if bottom pours had a larger diameter bottom spout that would reduce rejected bullets.
In my experience, bottom pours work good on pistol bullets as the mould cavities aren't deep and the alloy doesn't get to cool much as it pours
Long, deep rifle cavities seem to require a bit of “force” and this is where the ladle seems to work best. One has to determing how close to get the nozzle to the cavity to get the best bullets.
I'm in the process of making next years match bullets and “fixed” an amount of 70 lbs of bullets as my need. Ten more pounds to go and I switch to inspecting, lubing/sizing and weigh sorting them.
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In my enthusiasm I forgot to mention the other things. I agree with others who said cast blended ingots in bulk. It pays in consistency and is a lot less work in the end. You guys are privileged that you have products like fish fryers at low cost. We have to make pots from steel pipe. But whatever the equipment bulk alloy production is the way to go if you have the space to do it.
A new melter ? Don't get a Lee 10lb pot. Nothing wrong with it but too small for continuous ingot feeding. Even the 20lb melters are marginal for that. If you are going to ladle cast why not look at The Antimony Man's 25lb melter. From the dimensions I doubt if it is quite 25lb but it is slightly bigger than Lee, RCBS and Lyman and judging by the photo on his website it looks like real quality. Not cheap but less than RCBS (I think). I have a home made melter that holds 24lb and easily casts all day by continuous feeding from a pile of ingots. So I reckon the Antimony Man melter will do the same.
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Dicko, do you have a preference as far as ladles? I recently got a Rowell bottom-pour and worked great on the big Lyman 45 Postells, but haven't tried it on other bullets yet. Still using the 20# Lee bottom pour for handgun bullets.
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Dicko, do you have a preference as far as ladles? I recently got a Rowell bottom-pour and worked great on the big Lyman 45 Postells, but haven't tried it on other bullets yet. Still using the 20# Lee bottom pour for handgun bullets.
You've got me cold there, Bill. I have never used anything but the RCBS dipper so I'm in no position to comment about others. I have used this dipper for several years and have a new one waiting, so I'm never likely to use anything else except for testing. If the RCBS hadn't worked it would be another story but it has worked perfectly. I have no doubt that the Lyman will be as good. I noted the ladles on Bill Ferguson's website. They look very good. So does the rest of his stuff as far as I can tell from photos.
I will say that ladles should hold a good quantity of alloy. That's not only for filling big cavities and multi cavity moulds, it is also to regulate pouring pressure. I think you might have mentioned that, others have. It will be nothing new to experienced casters, but let me confirm that different size cavities require greater or lesser alloy flow, plus identical moulds can have their own preferences. That can be regulated by both pouring height and the quantity of alloy carried by the dipper. That is much more easily controlled with a dipper than bottom pour.
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When I found CBA and the Cast Boolits site I had three molds and had NEVER had any sucess shooting cast in any of my rifles, handguns OK but not rifles. I had cast for them for around 20 years. After I found these two sites I lurked around for a few months and then joined up.
I had a GREAT technique going with my old Lyman Mini Mag and the ladle. Almost perfect bullets every time. The greatest thing was they shot VERY accurately from my .450 Marlin. THAT got me excited.
Since that time I've cast thousands of bullets, a lot of which have gone back into the pot. Hey it's good practice and keeps me out of the bars (ok so I gave that up years ago.....) but I like doing it.
Reading along I came upon the bottom pour pots. Made perfect sense to me. Easier to use and you can cast more bullets, yes? This year wife got me a 20 lb Lee Bottom pour. I fired it up, started pouring..........and HATED IT. Incomplete fills, wrinkly bullets, the whole schmear.
I know guys are using this and having good results so what was obvious was that it was the way I was using it. I experimented with heat settings, different molds, different pour rates, WW vs. WW plus Lino etc.
What I found was that bottom pour works just fine --- ONCE you get it figured out and there just aren't any hard and fast rules on that. You have to CAST and CAST A LOT. Change ONE thing at a time and see what works and then go from there.
The ONE thing I have found that has REALLY made a difference in my casting whether it be ladle pour or bottom pour is a ten dollar hot plate wifey got me at Walgreens about a week ago. Preheating my molds made a WORLD of difference for me and there's a HUGE difference between what my aluminum molds and my steel molds “like".
Either is a viable method IMHO IF you take the time to learn what it takes to make it work.
........now you guys have got me shoving lead slugs down my barrels, spending hours with a stick and sandpaper to fit my sizers for a particular .444 I've got (I found a guy in the Fouling shot who will do this for me now...) and honing out molds to fit the dang thing now. It's catching. It's a disease, but it sure was fun about a month ago when I took my WW bullets in that .450 and outshot a guy with a very expensive rifle using factory ammo. He was mad as a wet hen. He asked me, and not politely, how I was doing that and how was I “cheating". I told him “oh heck, I just melt down old wheel weights and pour them in a mold and they work fine". .
Anyway thanks for all the good advice from this forum, hope you like my report.
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Aaron
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jeff houck
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Tom Acheson
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Wilderness
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John Carlson
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sghart3578
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MarkinEllensburg
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Spindrift
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alphabrass
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