7.62x39 Advice

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  • Last Post 17 October 2018
Scearcy posted this 10 October 2018

I have a CZ 527 carbine inbound to my FFL cronie so it is time to think about loads. I have never owned a 7.62x39 before so I have no brass, dies, etc. I guess the good news is that I haven't made too many mistakes yet either.

This rifle does have a .311 bore. 

I know a few of you have devoted some time to this cartridge. Any input you have would be useful.

Jim

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RicinYakima posted this 10 October 2018

My CZ 527 is about 15 years old, one of the early's. It will shoot any of the cast 30 carbine bullets very well, except 311410, with 4.0 grains of WW231, Unique, SR4756, etc. If you don't mind loading one at a time, the 150-170 30/30 bullets work well, but depending upon the throat, the gas check will be below the neck. Any of the faster single base rifle powders seem to work well. I have never shot ball powders in it, so don't have any experience with that.

I find it a great walking around gun, very quite for the amount of power you get, pretty wood to look at and more accurate than I can hold offhand.

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Tom Acheson posted this 10 October 2018

I've always wondered how a bolt action in 7.62x39 would do in our CBA Bench Rest matches. For several years I shot a 30 Kern in an XP-100. I used Lapua cases but those use the large primer. The 7.62x39 is the parent case for the 30 Kern. Maybe re-form 220 Russian cases into 7.62 x 39?

The CZ website says the carbine weighs about 6-pounds (no scope). Seems like it would giving up too much (only a 18.5" barrel) to be used in Production but maybe could be used in Hunter category?

Has anyone used this gun in the CBA matches?

 

Tom

 

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GP Idaho posted this 11 October 2018

Well Jim, I'm not a competitive shooter and don't know a thing about what class the little CZ Mauser would fit into. I have owned one in 7.62X39 for a couple of years and will say that you'll enjoy your new purchase. These were built to use the inexpensive eastern bloc surplus ammunition and do very poorly if using .308 bullets especially cast. I've only fired mine with powder coated cast bullets and .313 or .314 work equally well for me.  Enjoy. Gp

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frnkeore posted this 11 October 2018

My only help, is with jacketed, 150 gr .311 spitzer bullets (303 Brit), in my AK. My best load was 25 gr RX7 (as it was called in the olden days ). It's still in the CB velocity range.

The powders that I'd suggest for velocity's in the 1600 fps+ range is, the above, along with 4227 and one that I think would excellent for this cartridge, Alliant 300 MP. It has a burn rate almost, in the middle, between 4227 and RX7. I think 18 - 20 gr would be a place to start, with CB's.

Frank

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lotech posted this 11 October 2018

I bought two (special run for Davidson's) MKII Ruger 77s in about 1992. I did lots of cast bullet work using about eight bullets ranging in weight from around 160 grains to maybe 210 grains. I'd have to look at my old notes, but I think most of the bullets shot accurately. The only one I use now is cast from the Lyman #314299. The mould has been hollowpointed and bullets weight right at 200 grains when cast of wheelweight alloy. I shoot these at about 1,700 fps. 

As for jacketed bullets, I've had good luck with many, but I prefer the heavier bullets designed for the .30-30. 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 October 2018

as tom a. mentioned, those lapua x39 brass are little jewels ... but have large rifle primers ... might try large pistol primers just for fun ... they require a little tinkering to seat them properly , but your cz will probably fire them fine.   and of course the different primers might not make a difference.

ken, eating my heart out over your cz toy.

i do have a mystery barrel in x39 for a small ring mauser ... could it be a lucky barrel ?? ...

 

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lotech posted this 11 October 2018

As for small rifle primers vs. large... I had a lot of Remington brass with the small pockets. Bought this when working with SKSs years ago. Many years later, I acquired some Winchester brass with large pockets. I did a side-by-side comparison of the two using the same load in my Ruger bolt-action. Surprisingly, the accuracy, velocity, and point-of-impact at 100 yards were the same. At least in this one rifle, using CCI rifle primers, the two cases are interchangeable. 

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Scearcy posted this 11 October 2018

"My" CZ is no longer inbound. The internet retailer decided someone had posted the wrong price, after they charged my credit card and emailed a receipt. So they voided the transaction and told me to be happy and take a hike. I will leave them nameless but I am pissed off to say the least.

Perhaps a Ruger ranch rifle would make me feel better.

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John Alexander posted this 11 October 2018

When I receive bad service and mention it here I name the culpert so others will know.  Maybe your experience wasn't bad enough to justify "outing" them.

Joh

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 11 October 2018

as a shootin' tool, the ruger american works very well ... and still a steal at $400 ...  but do they have a soul
?? ...  maybe you could sink a nice piece of fancy walnut into the buttstock ?? ....

or some sticky-back walnut veneer ?? ...

just trying to help ...cool

ken

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Scearcy posted this 11 October 2018

Well I have given up hope of owning the CZ. I have not given  up hope that there may be something they are willing to put on the table. I can tell you internet retailers reserve the right to void any sale where they later deem the price to have been incorrect. Did I not see that when I read their terms and conditions before I checked out, he asked? Well no I hadn't seen that provision but I am not surprised it was there.

I am still trying to decide if I should offer to kiss and make up for certain considerations.

Jim

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M3 Mitch posted this 12 October 2018

I would think most any local gun store could order you a CZ.  Having bought Ken Campbell's stash of Lapua brass, and having seen a new CZ carbine for sale at least once at a local store, I am planning to ask them to order one for me. 

At the end of the day, I am not that concerned if I pay $20 more than I might have got from some Internet outfit that might just give me the same runaround that Jim is getting.  Worth it to me to keep a local outfit in business. 

Thanks for starting this thread, it may motivate me to go put the gat on order.

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Scearcy posted this 12 October 2018

In this case the listed price was a savings of $280 which is why I ordered immediately. The price looked too good to be true and it turned out that it was. Even now their corrected price is savings of  over $100  relative to my local gun store. My rule is that I will pay $50 more to do business locally but not $100 or more.

I like the CZ to be sure but I am seriously looking at the Howa mini actions which cost  $150 less than the CZ.

This thread is drifting way off topic. I apologize.

Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 October 2018

howa actions ... a sleeper there .... not sure why they don't get more respect ..... 

... and because of that lack of range-worshipers you can find some real deals on them used ..... even at gunshops i have seen them tagged at $325 or so ... not bad for a gun that only lacks the weatherby stamp for twice that $$   ...

they have metric barrel threads, which not all gunsmith lathes ( such as my southbend ) do not cut ....  but that is a minor consideration in general .

they take essentially remmy 700 mounts, which for many of us eases the pain further.

you could even get a howa bbl-action, put a " richards " stock on it and have a real cutie to play with .

ken

 

 

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GP Idaho posted this 12 October 2018

Jim: For all those gunsmith types out there, there is the option to build the just right rifle using the best quality or the best economy one can put together. I truly wish I had the talent and machinery to accomplish that task.  For the rest of us off the shelf shoppers we just have to look for the best we can find for the dollar. I'm sorry to hear that your on-line source didn't have the respectability to honor their advertised price. I would wright them off my options list. Everyone who have shot my CZ have remarked about what a nice little walkabout package the lite Mauser action and the 7.62X39 cartridge make. I hope you will keep looking for one at a fair price, they are a step above the Ruger Ranch rifle in my opinion.  Gp

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Scearcy posted this 12 October 2018

Yes I have a Ruger Ranch rifle in 300 Blackout and I also had one in 223. They are serviceable and reasonably accurate. the trigger is good and the stock is terrible. I also have 2 Weatherby Vanguards which of course are Howas with a cheap Weatherby stock. They shoot well and I like the 2 stage trigger. I have replaced both stocks as the POI walks as the barrel heats up with the factory stock. Since I can't get the CZ at the fantastic price I will probably go with the Howa and save $180. The super sales price on the CZ is no longer driving my cartridge choice, so I am considering options other than the 7.62x39. I do like small bores.

Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 12 October 2018

the mini howa in x39 is described as a " heavy " barrel ... if true, that would be pretty attractive ....  plus under $350 for a new one is just way too hard to not at least check one out ...

ken

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2kbill posted this 13 October 2018

This is a moot post since your CZ didn't pan out, but yes I have one and have shot it a couple of CBA matches - always won because nobody shoots Hunter class in Charlotte   The 527 carbine isn't ideally suited for benchrest competition.  It is very light - I think w/scope it may still be under 6 lbs.  That coupled with the european style stock and splinter fore end makes it a handful on the bags.

That said, in the hands of someone skilled with hunter type rifles, I think it could make the varmint rifle shooters who squeak into Hunter class take notice.  CZ barrels are quality, and the single set trigger is a joy to use.  Best bullet I have found is the "30 Hunter" from NOE, 311188F.  I use lino and size it to .314, and load it with 16 grains of IMR 4227.  Here's a 100 yd. 5-shot group I shot from last year.

Region 3

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Scearcy posted this 13 October 2018

Perfect timing I could not get the CZ out of my mind. I just ordered one about an hour ago - from a different retailer. I did buy the  rifle version rather than the carbine. I could argue for either but strangely enough the rifle was $40 cheaper than the carbine. I will take notes from your post.

Jim

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2kbill posted this 13 October 2018

Great!  I think you'll like it.  I highly recommend the NOE bullet, which I also shoot in my 03A3 in Military - sized to .311.  You need a fairly short bullet for the 7.62x39.  If I can help in any way, let me know.  

 

Bill

Region 3

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onondaga posted this 13 October 2018

Scearcy,

You asked about brass too. All my X39 brass is Winchester and I Lee collet neck size only for my single shot Remington Spartan rifle. I hunt Deer with it using the Ranchdog 165 gr FNGC in #2 alloy sized/checked .312" with aluminum GCs. LOA 2.240", 26.0 gr AA2230, CCI200 primer, light .002" measured crimp with Lee FCD, 2050 fps clocked with my 24"barrel. The load easily groups under 1" @ 50 yards and averages <.500 @ 50 yards bench rest. 

I have been very pleased with the Winchester brass in this application. I anneal necks every 10 cycles and all my brass has been loaded 31x. I started with 200 pieces Winchester brass and I'm still using and liking  every piece.

I have never even tried factory or military ammo in my rifle, only my cast loads. I chose the caliber for Deer because case capacity is nearly identical to the 30-30 so, I believed it would work well with cast bullets that fit well and it does. My bore is chrome lined and polished, I believe that is an advantage too.

g

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Scearcy posted this 13 October 2018

Thanks, Gary. I remembered you are a 7.62x39 guy and I have been waiting for your post!

Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 October 2018

...ok, you x39 elitists !! ... just keep on keepin on .... if this love-fest continues, i might have to drag out my $40 mystery x39 barrel and stick it on my war surplus swede action and glue it into a barn scrap large ring orphan stock ...  maybe find some old herter's brass and scrape the corrosion off an old floppy lee 313 mold and ...

join the fun .... DANG ....

Ken

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M3 Mitch posted this 15 October 2018

Well, this is getting me more in the mood to go ahead and order that CZ Carbine.  From what I have read about them, and experience with other CZ guns, I am about ready to say you can't go wrong with a CZ.

Look at it this way - a deer gun for when I get old, and want to keep the weight of the gat down to around 6 lbs. 

Offhand I would think any of the bullets commonly used in 32-20 would make good plinkers.  I have an old Lyman 4-cavity 3118 plain base that has been my "go to" bullet for all sorts of 30 caliber squib loads, not just for .320 ish 32s, but also for 30-06.  For deer you would probably want something lighter than the usual 30-30 bullets.  For the best paper punching target accuracy, I am not certain what bullet shape and weight would be best, beyond just the known tru-ism that the bullet must fit the throat in terms of diameter.

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onondaga posted this 16 October 2018

Mitch, I have a small game round that is superb for my Spartan X39 with the Lee TL 314-90-SWC pistol bullet cast in #2 sized for my rifle at .3125", Tumble lubed lightly 2X with Whites Deluxe 45:45:10. I use 2.9gr H TiteGroup for 1160 fps clocked with my 24" barrel single shot.  The load consistently groups under 1" @ 50 yards and kills squirrels well as well as big snapping turtles and Racoons at 50 yards and woodchucks to 100 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to use this round on Coyote or Fox out to 100 yards either, The load is so cheap to shoot and accurate that I have fun using it on interactive metal targets designed for .22 R.F at 50 yards!!!

The truncated cone flat nose on this 90 grain SWC smacks meat and kills small game well at 1160 fps. The round is actually a little more powerful than a .22 RF Mag. due to the 90 gr bullet weight at this speed. This SWC is also a clean cutting paper puncher on targets and that makes paper target shooting more fun. I seat this bullet one diameter deep and no crimp for my single shot. I return the seating flair to zero with an adjusted Lee FCD.

This round in my Spartan is also quieter than CCI Standard Velocity ammo out of my Ruger 10/22

I only use the #2 alloy for strength during pocket carry, WheelWeight, jacketed bullet scrap or pure lead would be fine at this load level but those soft metals dent up in the pocket and #2 doesn't dent up in the pocket.

 

Gary

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Scearcy posted this 16 October 2018

Alright I have received an actual UPS tracking number so my CZ is on the way. I have to confess that my highest priority for this rifle is as a lite weight minimum recoil deer rifle. As someone mentioned above we reach an age where a 9 1/2 lb 3006 gets to be a little much. I am there.  I'll just have to try and not shoot any deer that are bullet proof with the new rifle.

The first cast bullet task will be the upcoming 200 yard coyote shoot.  After that it will be time to get ready for the spring matches. I am not sure the Russian 30 short will unseat my 243 but it will be fun finding out.

Jim

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onondaga posted this 16 October 2018

Jim, Accurate makes a copy mold of the RanchDog 165 in both plain base and a GC model. That is the first choice I'd recommend for Deer with the 7.62X39 They will make it to your specific diameter needed with the alloy you like. The RD is a Deer smacking wide flat nose and shoots great at 2,050 fps for me with AA2230 or H4895. Seriously take a look at the molds:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165DG-D.png

and

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165D-D.png

I don't think there is a harder hitting Deer bullet you could use in the X39 than the RD. I have high confidence in my RD165 FNGC at 2050 fps to 150 yards and I am hard to please!

Gary

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Scearcy posted this 16 October 2018

Hi Gary

I happen to have that mold from a group buy a few years back. The problem I have had is getting it to feed properly in a bolt rifle. The CZ is a controlled feed action so it might feed that bullet just fine. My current mold drops the bullets at 312. That should work ok if I seat the checks with a Lee 313 push through die (on order). We will see but deer season is only 16 days away.

Jim

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onondaga posted this 16 October 2018

Jim it is worth the try. I didn't have trouble getting it to feed in my 30-06-1903A3 sized .3125 or my Grandsons Savage 11/111 in .308.  We simply seated it to the crimp groove and lightly crimp for the bolt rifles. It is a tight fit in the .308 sized at .310 but it chambers and shoots real well.

g

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M3 Mitch posted this 16 October 2018

Mitch, I have a small game round that is superb for my Spartan X39 with the Lee TL 314-90-SWC pistol bullet cast in #2 sized for my rifle at .3125", Tumble lubed lightly 2X with Whites Deluxe 45:45:10. I use 2.9gr H TiteGroup for 1160 fps clocked with my 24" barrel single shot.  The load consistently groups under 1" @ 50 yards and kills squirrels well as well as big snapping turtles and Racoons at 50 yards and woodchucks to 100 yards. I wouldn't hesitate to use this round on Coyote or Fox out to 100 yards either, The load is so cheap to shoot and accurate that I have fun using it on interactive metal targets designed for .22 R.F at 50 yards!!!

The truncated cone flat nose on this 90 grain SWC smacks meat and kills small game well at 1160 fps. The round is actually a little more powerful than a .22 RF Mag. due to the 90 gr bullet weight at this speed. This SWC is also a clean cutting paper puncher on targets and that makes paper target shooting more fun. I seat this bullet one diameter deep and no crimp for my single shot. I return the seating flair to zero with an adjusted Lee FCD.

This round in my Spartan is also quieter than CCI Standard Velocity ammo out of my Ruger 10/22

I only use the #2 alloy for strength during pocket carry, WheelWeight, jacketed bullet scrap or pure lead would be fine at this load level but those soft metals dent up in the pocket and #2 doesn't dent up in the pocket.

 

Gary

 

Thanks for the tips, this gives me the idea to try the old Lyman 93 grain bullet I already cast for the 30 Luger in a similar load.  I think the diameter would be OK, but of course will check first.

All this discussion is making me think a 527 Carbine would be a good addition to the gun safe.

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onondaga posted this 17 October 2018

Mitch, I don't know the design of the Luger bullet you mention but the advantages of the Lee 90 gr SWC are;  a long bearing area for stability in the chamber when they are sized to FIT the chamber to a slide fit on chambering,  and a short truncated decent flat nose for killing well,  along with a sharp hole cutting SWC. That is a lot of pluses, it is not just the weight group that attracted me to the TL 314-90-SWC. I specifically wanted a 50 yard squirrel head exploder that shoots equal accuracy to my tricked out 10/22 and this does it in my Spartan X39. It is 7 clicks vertical to switch from my RD 165 gr. Deer load to the Lee 90 gr. Squirrel load in the field. Gotta love that!

G

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M3 Mitch posted this 17 October 2018

The 93 grain Lyman bullet for the .30 Luger is a round nose, more or less duplicates the profile of the usual FMJ bullet you get in factory ammo.  I can see the advantages of the Lee bullet for more serious use, but will probably at least try the Luger bullet, since I already have the mold.  For beer cans and metal gongs, the Luger bullet should work as good as any.

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onondaga posted this 17 October 2018

Mitch,

Beer cans and gongs oh my. I'll make a comparison too, Squirrel heads at 50 yards are 2 MOA. I can do that with my Spartan X39 and the 90 gr Lee SWC at 1160 fps MV. The rifle shoots a smidgen over 1 MOA with either of my loads. You bet I'm happy with cast bullets in 7.62X39. My Remington Spartan is my first and only rifle in that caliber and was only $200 new with a scope and it is the deluxe model with the spiral fluted barrel!!!. Although I had to really work the trigger, then sharpen the horrible checkering and put a real TruOil stock finish that isn't like original water soluble finish that got all over my hands in the rain. I like the Spartan, particularly the weight, it is 9.2 pounds all up scoped with an ammo carrier leather cheek-piece and sling. It comes up and holds nice. I am a horrible shot with a light rifle.

Gary

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