The LIE of the 3 shot group!

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  • Last Post 03 April 2013
RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2012

OK guys, I am really frosted now, so if you don't want to listen to me on my soap box, move on now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reading my January copy of “Precision Shooting” tonight and believe it or not, one of the writers is shilling the new FN/Winchester bolt gun. So, it and he shoots 6 three shot groups, averages the best three and publishes that as the accuracy of the rifle. “..so a 1/2 inch relates to 2 inches at 400 yards, good enough for hunting".  BS!

So lets go to the “one shot group". A white bulls-eye of 0.01” in a black circle of 1.5". Shoot only one shot at the target. With Wally Enga's computer program, measure the distance from the bulls-eye to the closest edge of the bullet hole. If the bullet hole pushes out the white bulls-eye, it is a perfect shot (you can hit a fly's butt at 1250 yards cause you can't miss). Now you get 20 shots to get a perfect for every box of ammo you write about. If you miss the white bulls-eye, the computer program will measure to the closest edge. Now you can take the three best shots from the box, divide by three and get your string measure for group. Records will fall!

Now I feel better!

 

Ric

 

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LWesthoff posted this 03 January 2012

I think it was Ed Harris who said “There are no lucky 10 shot groups.” I also read - somewhere - that ballistics experts with some ammo company had concluded that they had to shoot groups of at least 7 shots to properly evaluate any lot of ammo. My own much more limited experience says it takes me several 10 shot groups to properly compare loads.

Three shot groups are BS; nothing more!

My personal opinion - but I'm going to stick with it 'til somebody proves me wrong.

Wes

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6pt-sika posted this 03 January 2012

LWesthoff wrote: Three shot groups are BS; nothing more!

My personal opinion - but I'm going to stick with it 'til somebody proves me wrong.

Wes

You know what , I don't care what others think !

I shoot 3 shot groups period . How many times with a hunting rifle am I gonna shoot more then 3 times in fairly quick succesion ?

I took a Ruger #1V with a Lilja 22-250AI barrel on it this past summer and shot the smallest 3 shot group I've ever shot and probably ever will shoot . Fluke sure it most likely was . But it measured .054” after subtracting the bullet diameter .

 

So do what ya want because you know what , I sure am !

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tturner53 posted this 03 January 2012

Sounds like the author went overboard when it wasn't necessary. Just based on your description of the article it sounds like the rifle is accurate alright but why gild the lily? For me 3 shot groups are important if I'm shooting a hunting rifle. If it takes more than three shots something is really wrong. I pay most attention to where the first shot from a cold fouled barrel goes. Different purposes, different standards. I suppose it would be logical to fire a ten shot group with a long cooling period in between shots to check the consistency of the 'first shot'. I was a big game hunter long before I got interested in bench or competitive shooting, probably affects my thinking.

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billwnr posted this 03 January 2012

Maybe we should petition the Competitions Committee to have a category for three shot groups.

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tturner53 posted this 03 January 2012

There you go. But why stop there? How about a 1 shot match? Cold barrel, not fired for at least previous 60 min., no bench, any field position, 200 yds. Measure distance from center of X to center of bullet hole.  My point is our(the CBA) standards of accuracy are specialised and not the only valid or relevant ones. Still, throwing out unwanted results such as in the article is ridiculous. I'll stop now before I get kicked out of the CBA.;)

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LWesthoff posted this 03 January 2012

O.K. I'm going to back up a little, here, because I was talking about determining how CONSISTENTLY accurate a rifle is. For a hunting rifle, first shot cold barrel placement, if consistent, is important....but I'll still feel better about the rifle and load if the second - and subsequent - shots go pretty much where the first one went.

If you shoot ten three shot groups and they all cluster around the same aiming point, you've shot a mighty impressive thirty shot group. But if 9 of those groups are kind of scattered around, and you happen to wobble one group into a nice tight little cluster - that group is really only useful to help you sell the rifle. Which is what too many of those gunzine gurus are doing, in my opinion.

Wes

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Tom Acheson posted this 03 January 2012

Was at a CBA BR match 6-7 years ago. A shooter who produced a really nice 10-shot group was heard to say that he was just lucky. An older, more senior BR shooter said that is is much more difficult to shoot a good 10-shot group than a 5-shot group.

He went on to say if you were put into a swivel chair with your gun, and were spun around and had to shoot a round each time you came to the position where you could see the wall in front of you where a target was placed and after you were done spinning and had fired 10 shots, if you then had a small group, that would have been luck in play. His point was that it takes a lot of shooting skill to shoot a good 10-shot group and not spoil a nice 5-round group by adding 5 more shots to the group.

Tom

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6pt-sika posted this 03 January 2012

tturner53 wrote:   My point is our(the CBA) standards of accuracy are specialised and not the only valid or relevant ones. Still, throwing out unwanted results such as in the article is ridiculous. I'll stop now before I get kicked out of the CBA.;)

Other then some sort of registered competition , “valid” is what a person deems it .

 

Three shot groups are valid to me for what I do . Yet they may not be valid to someone else . And thats okay it's like anything else it's all relative !

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RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2012

6pt,

That is my point. A “precision” one shot group makes the bullet strike the point the firer wants, as opposed to “accurate” group that rifle will place its bullets in the same spot.

Like Tim, for a hunter, one could shoot one shot from a clean cold barrel every morning for a week. That is a precision group, how reliable can the shooter / rifle combination hit a mark.

Benchrest shooting is about the rifle / ammo combination, otherwise we would all “stand on our hind legs and shoot like a man."

Ric

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

RicinYakima wrote: Benchrest shooting is about the rifle / ammo combination, otherwise we would all “stand on our hind legs and shoot like a man."

Ric

Hells bells , I shoot my hunting rifle's from the bench for 3 shot groups just like the  benchrest boys . But then when I hunt I'm mostly sitting and shooting from a rest as well ;)

 

Benchrest has a bit to do with the shooter as well . We've had an over run of folks at our club getting 6.5 Creedmoor's to shoot in an event we have called “Prarie Dog Shoots” you shoot for score on animal targets at 100 , 200 and 300 yards . Anyway a couple sets of fellows have been working as teams with a rifle between them . And typically one guy will shoot the same rifle a good deal better then his partner with the same load etc . I am saying to guys use the same rifle and of course load . Anyway from my perspective shooting benchrest has a learning curve for the shooter just as any other shooting activity .

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

While this has nothing to do with the topic at hand I gotta say . In the past I shot skeet , trap , sporting clays and PPC in competition ALOT . At the time I also hunted ALOT , but only with jacketed bullets and bolt action rifles .

And while I still like to shoot skeet , trap and sporting clays a fair amount as well as hunt with the same jacketed bullet bolt action and single shot rifles .

I've found casting , loading and shooting from the bench and hunting with my lever guns to be alot more relaxing and downright better for MY whole disposition .

While I've not been to but a couple benchrest competitions and as an observer only . Those folks seemed to be very pleasent and hospitable . When I shot skeet and trap competitively the whole outlook of myself and the people on the same level as myself couldn't always be called hospitable or friendly . We had all gotten to the point where you were exoected to be in contention every week . And to be totally honest I'm not totally happy with the kind of person that made me seem to be .

 

The cast bullet laid back shooting at our club is alot more compatible with “calm and pleasent"   :dude::dude::dude:

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argie1891 posted this 04 January 2012

you just dont understand i shoot better 3 shot groups than i do 5 or 10 shot groups. 3 shot groups make better wallet groups. you know the one in a hundred you can pull out and show your buddie, or the guy at the gun store. and to think i have been wasting all that ammo shooting 10 shot groups when 3 will do just as well. argie1891

if you need me I will be at the range

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72coupe posted this 04 January 2012

Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

72coupe wrote: Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

 

Sorry I couldn't resist that :D

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shastaboat posted this 04 January 2012

OMG! You all are anal!...lol...

Because I said so!

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RicinYakima posted this 04 January 2012

Brent,

Of course I'm anal! I'm working for 0.01” smaller ten shot group averages. I check to see which side of the newspaper is up on the front step in the morning to see if it is a good bullet casting day. Sort through all the grains of SR4759 to discard the lighter grey colored ones. Wipe my primer pockets with a Q-tip before I gauge the flash holes. But I'm not really serious about shooting?

Ric

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argie1891 posted this 04 January 2012

RicinYakima wrote: Brent,

Of course I'm anal! I'm working for 0.01” smaller ten shot group averages. I check to see which side of the newspaper is up on the front step in the morning to see if  

i shoot with ric on a regular basis like almost every week when it is warm enough. he is telling the truth. he dosent weigh charges he counts the grains of 4759, or 2400. he has pretty much changed to 4759 as at his advance age the little grains of 2400 are a bit hard for him to see. that is my story and i am sticking to it. i gota say honestly paying attention to the details makes for shrinking groups. but he and i both think 3 shot groups might be good enough for hunting but take your rifle to a cba match and see what it will really do. it is hard to shoot 10 shots in a row in the 10 ring, i have only done it some of the time. i wish i could do it on demand but i cant. argie1891

if you need me I will be at the range

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Uncle Russ posted this 04 January 2012

Just keeping an eye on the previous two posts. They speak the truth. I watch'em both.

Or all three of us are Liars.

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72coupe posted this 04 January 2012

6pt-sika wrote: 72coupe wrote: Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

 

Sorry I couldn't resist that :D Yeah but what kind of groups are they shooting?

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6pt-sika posted this 04 January 2012

72coupe wrote: 6pt-sika wrote: 72coupe wrote: Highpower competitors shoot strings of 10 or 20 so 3 shot groups don't tell you much. I shoot 10 shots in my test.

Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

 

Sorry I couldn't resist that :D Yeah but what kind of groups are they shooting?  

 

As long as they break targets who gives a ...........

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