Important Safety Tip For Those Loading for Semi-Auto Rifles

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  • Last Post 29 April 2013
Ed Harris posted this 11 April 2013

Why Crimp for Semi-Auto Rifles?

Because you are NOT an Idiot!

C.E. “Ed” Harris, Gerrardstown, WV

When I was QA Manager for Ruger's Newport, NH operations in the mid-1980s the company had received Mini-14 rifles back in customer service having cracked right locking lugs. As often occurs, users would not admit to use of hand loads, which would void the warranty. But the mechanics of the Garand type locking system being what it is, for this to occur pressure would have to be extreme.

I had lengthy discussions with one of the engineers, Albert Cole, who had been at Springfield Armory, (the REAL one) during development of the M14 NM Rifle. They Army had investigated a few incidents of right locking lugs cracking which occurred at Camp Perry when hand loads were used in which bullets did not have mouth varnish or asphalt bullet sealant. Therein lies the clue!

Military teams had often requested match ammo to be loaded without the sealant. The public reason was supposedly because the sealant was felt a detriment to accuracy. Frankford Arsenal testing indicated that the sealant increased bullet pull and improved ballistic uniformity. It also reduced metal fouling by acting as a lubricant. When the subject was pressed further between FA and the USAMTU, the unspoken reason for the request came out.

It was not for reasons of accuracy, but to make easier to pull the bullets! The military teams were substituting Sierra 168-grain bullets for the GI M118 FMJBT bullets, or making what shooters then called “Mexican Match,” the moniker tagged onto the “GI Reloads” by noted California shooter and several time National Champion Mid Tompkins.

William C. Davis, Jr. was then head of the small caliber lab at Frankford Arsenal. He recommended very strongly against any change in M118 ammunition for several reasons. First was the loss of waterproofing which was important for long term shelf life and necessary for combat sniper use.

The second, more important reason is that a real danger arises if an attempt is made to fire a round containing no powder, but having a primer only. That is because case primer blast alone is sufficient to lodge a bullet in the throat just ahead of the origin of rifling. When this occurs, there is usually no audible report. The firer may think that he experienced a short-recoil, accompanied by a failure to eject and may then take immediate action to manually cycle the rifle, eject the spent case and chamber another round and immediately fire it.

If bullets are not securely seated in a tight neck, and either asphalted or crimped, the power of an M1 Garand or M14 action spring in stripping and chambering a round is sufficient to telescope the bullet of the next chambered round back into the case. This causes extreme compression of the powder charge above 100% of load density, increasing pressure from that aspect, but also resulting in firing the rifle with two bullets ahead of this dangerously over-compressed powder charge. With M118 ammunition the resulting “double-bullet proof” pressure is about 80,000 psi. or about 15% above normal proof pressure.

Testing was done at FA in which both M1 and M14 rifles were set up with a bullet lodged in the throat ahead of the chamber, so that upon chambering a standard proof cartridge, the bullet point then rested against the base of bullet obstructing the throat. Upon firing, the broken locking lugs which had been observed at Camp Perry on some TRW rifles could be repeatedly duplicated. Differential heat treatment of the bolt lugs and receiver locking surfaces increased the strength of later M14 rifles, so that they could withstand this double-bullet set-up without breaking locking lugs or setting back locking surfaces to the extent that headspace exceeded field reject limits.

At Ruger we observed the same broken right-lug problems in Mini-14 rifles in 5.56mm firing handloads. The test results in duplicating the FA test procedures were more impressive if the case had a soft head below 170 DPH or if there was a draw scratch in the K-L regions of then head-body junction where the case is less supported.

Bottom line, is that if bullets are tightly seated and adequately sealed and/or crimped, enough that loaded rounds withstand 5 secs of sustained compressive force of 80 pounds “bullet push” without measurable shortening, the rifle should then reliably jam, instead of chambering the subsequent manually cycled round. Hopefully the shooter will then recognize that something is wrong!

The concept to ingrain into idiot handloaders is that when anything abnormal happens:

STOP! Clear / Eject Lock bolt open, Engage Safety, Check bore!

Ruger has published a warning alerting hand loaders to this potential problem in its Mini-14 operators manual. As a result of having worked with Ruger engineers investigating this condition, Lee Precision developed and made available to shooters its Factory Crimp Die. I recommend that you buy and use one of these in every caliber in which you reload ammunition for use in a semi-automatic rifle. I do!

We are not talking accuracy here, Gentlemen, we are talking SAFETY!

All the above experience is related to testing with jacketed bullets in full-charge loads approximating military match ammunition. It's applicability to cast bullet reloads is unknown, but these warning are well documented and are repeated here as a caution.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 11 April 2013

Thankfully, Ed, I am not an IDIOT! I don't reload for self-loaders. The M1 gets US GI ammo, when I shoot it at all, and the SKS gets Yugo military ammo.

I seems to have read this information about 25 years ago; did you publish this before?

There is a reason Lee sells so many of the Factory Crimp dies. This is it. I saw a guy break badly a Norinco M-14 clone with a handload of the Sierra 155 Palma bullet and a normal target load. I always suspected that is what happen, but he never would admit that he had a problem with the case loaded prior to the big bang.

Thank you for bringing this up! There are lots and lots of new handloaders out there, with no experience and no guidance, trying to save money with the ammo shortage.

Best wishes,

Ric

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Ed Harris posted this 11 April 2013

RicinYakima wrote: Thankfully, Ed, I am not an IDIOT! I don't reload for self-loaders. The M1 gets US GI ammo, when I shoot it at all, and the SKS gets Yugo military ammo. I seems to have read this information about 25 years ago; did you publish this before?

There is a reason Lee sells so many of the Factory Crimp dies. This is it. I saw a guy break badly a Norinco M-14 clone with a handload of the Sierra 155 Palma bullet and a normal target load. I always suspected that is what happen, but he never would admit that he had a problem with the case loaded prior to the big bang.

Thank you for bringing this up! There are lots and lots of new handloaders out there, with no experience and no guidance, trying to save money with the ammo shortage.

Best wishes,

Ric

Yes, repeating the info for the passing parade. Seems people are stuck on stupid, looking at a taken apart rifle the other day.....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 11 April 2013

Note to self; try FCD on jacketed reloads for M1 Garand. Thanks Ed. -Slightly OT but what is Ruger's expectations of the Mini-14 regards durability. I've often read the Mini-14 is no combat grade weapon and wondered why some one would say that. Sure never had a problem with any I've had but I didn't run them hard.

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Ed Harris posted this 11 April 2013

Run hard in adverse conditions they are not a Garand, AK or M4, but for civilian recrational and police patrol rifle use they hold up fine.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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R. Dupraz posted this 11 April 2013

Back in the mid 70's, I think, I had a mini 14 that I carried in my trooper car for a while. It was a liberty model and was fortunate enough that I never had to use it for business.

Nice little rifle but it was a disappointment for two reasons. One, the flimsy rear sight and two, the poor accuracy. Lucky to hit a grapefruit at 100 yds. Some of the guys at the time carried AR's which would shoot rings around the Ruger any day of the week. Had more confidence in that Rem 870 loaded with “buck” and “ball". Two slugs behind two buckshot.

Wasn't ever real comfortable with that pipsqueek .223 in our application anyway. When the possibility of having to penetrate auto glass and vehicle bodies was always a possibility.

Never reloaded for it as it was always filled with factory rounds. Maybe the mini 14's are different now, or I was expecting too much, don't know.

Anyway, it was replaced. Still have some 20 rnd Ruger mags for it somewhere.

RD

Then, much later, I was issued “The Queen” of them all, a genuine bonified issue M-14. Better quit now before I get all snotty nosed.

RD

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Vassal posted this 15 April 2013

Another great post Ed. I load for both AK and AR variant rifles, but when I do I crimp the bejeebers out of 'em.

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richidaho posted this 15 April 2013

? Ed, Does the m-16 AR type rifles have the same problem? I crimp my hand loads for my AR type rifles. The question I have is: I have had ammo lock up inside the receiver. The hammer will fall but no detonation of ammo. I will have to use the but to the ground while pulling on the charging handle to eject the round. I have one AR type rifle that will except and fire the round and one that will not. I put calipers to each round and found that my hand loads are .09 in longer than factory ammo. These are 70g bullets so longer then normal. This ammo will fit inside a standard AR mag. One of my AR guns shoots this ammo just fine, my newest gun will not except the 70g .09 in longer ammo. I chuck it up to a tighter chamber on new gun but unsure. What are your thoughts on this.

Thanks Rich L

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Ed Harris posted this 15 April 2013

richidaho wrote: ? Ed, Does the m-16 AR type rifles have the same problem? I crimp my hand loads for my AR type rifles. The question I have is: I have had ammo lock up inside the receiver. The hammer will fall but no detonation of ammo. I will have to use the but to the ground while pulling on the charging handle to eject the round. I have one AR type rifle that will except and fire the round and one that will not. I put calipers to each round and found that my hand loads are .09 in longer than factory ammo. These are 70g bullets so longer then normal. This ammo will fit inside a standard AR mag. One of my AR guns shoots this ammo just fine, my newest gun will not except the 70g .09 in longer ammo. I chuck it up to a tighter chamber on new gun but unsure. What are your thoughts on this. Thanks Rich L

Sounds like your chamber is either dirty or too tight and nor GI or NATO spec. If SAAMI 223 Rem. you will need to seat deeper and reduce charge 10%, or else rethroat to STANAG.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: RicinYakima wrote: Thankfully, Ed, I am not an IDIOT! I don't reload for self-loaders. The M1 gets US GI ammo, when I shoot it at all, and the SKS gets Yugo military ammo. I seems to have read this information about 25 years ago; did you publish this before?

There is a reason Lee sells so many of the Factory Crimp dies. This is it. I saw a guy break badly a Norinco M-14 clone with a handload of the Sierra 155 Palma bullet and a normal target load. I always suspected that is what happen, but he never would admit that he had a problem with the case loaded prior to the big bang.

Thank you for bringing this up! There are lots and lots of new handloaders out there, with no experience and no guidance, trying to save money with the ammo shortage.

Best wishes,

Ric

Yes, repeating the info for the passing parade. Seems people are stuck on stupid, looking at a taken apart rifle the other day.....

Well, you're not reading the right forums. A lot of them are “staffed” by morons, and the posters are close to brain dead.

PS Edwardovitch, when you going to get rid of that silly old rifle and become a MAN with the evil black rifle and cast boolits!

PPS, I'll take the silly old rifle please.

:D

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

R. Dupraz wrote: Back in the mid 70's, I think, I had a mini 14 that I carried in my trooper car for a while. It was a liberty model and was fortunate enough that I never had to use it for business.

Nice little rifle but it was a disappointment for two reasons. One, the flimsy rear sight and two, the poor accuracy. Lucky to hit a grapefruit at 100 yds. Some of the guys at the time carried AR's which would shoot rings around the Ruger any day of the week. Had more confidence in that Rem 870 loaded with “buck” and “ball". Two slugs behind two buckshot.

Wasn't ever real comfortable with that pipsqueek .223 in our application anyway. When the possibility of having to penetrate auto glass and vehicle bodies was always a possibility.

Never reloaded for it as it was always filled with factory rounds. Maybe the mini 14's are different now, or I was expecting too much, don't know.

Anyway, it was replaced. Still have some 20 rnd Ruger mags for it somewhere.

RD

Then, much later, I was issued “The Queen” of them all, a genuine bonified issue M-14. Better quit now before I get all snotty nosed.

RD

We share a love of that rifle, If you ever need help with the pogo stick, let me know. Been working on them since 75, including genuine 14s.

PS “The Queen” is the Garand... 14 is improved Garand, but don't tell Ed that. ;)

You can ask him why the mini was so bad... funny answer. I busted my rear end for months on an 180... I gave it to my brother.

PS, I have and eventually will try to return to shooting the 14 types out to 1000 yards. Been there, done that, but with younger eyes. ;)

Google Desert Marksmen range in SoCal... look at the pics of the 1000 yard pad. That was my home range for years. Lot of greats used to shoot there.

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: Why Crimp for Semi-Auto Rifles?

Because you are NOT an Idiot!

C.E. “Ed” Harris, Gerrardstown, WV

Mr Harris, don't you know that the “instant experts” say you're wrong.. which is fine by me! (they are brain dead) ;)

Mid taught me to crimp, but I hear he changed his mind 20 years ago. Not going to go into other “Opinions". ;)

Shouldn't that address say: BF Egypt? ;)

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Ed Harris posted this 17 April 2013

I burned out on little black plastic Matty Mattel Mouse Guns. When they make one in .30-'06 I'll buy one. I shot a Colt Monitor once at the FBI Acadaemy, now THAT is a REAL rifle!

For now my M1, 03 Springfield and Winchester 54 will have to do....

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I burned out on little black plastic Matty Mattel Mouse Guns. When they make one in .30-'06 I'll buy one. I shot a Colt Monitor once at the FBI Acadaemy, now THAT is a REAL rifle!

Aha! Coward!

I Challenge you:

An EBR with cast bullets and black powder if they don't ban it along with pressure cookers. ;)

yes I've shot a Monitor and a lot of BARs, could have shot an FG 42. Didn't. I also don't like shooting Mg 42s. Now if you can get a 249 to use cast and BP.. that would be something! :)

Don't like them, but better than the EBR!

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Ed Harris posted this 17 April 2013

AK works great with cast and have done that. Don't know if it would cycle with blackpowder, think it might....

If you painted an AK black would THAT make it an EBR (Evil Black Rifle), an AK is ALREADY “Evil” and its ALREADY a RIFLE, so the paint job should complete the transition.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Vassal posted this 17 April 2013

http://www.onlylongrange.com/bn36.asp

UHH ohh ED.

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: AK works great with cast and have done that. Don't know if it would cycle with blackpowder, think it might....

If you painted an AK black would THAT make it an EBR (Evil Black Rifle), an AK is ALREADY “Evil” and its ALREADY a RIFLE, so the paint job should complete the transition.

Sorry as much as I don't care for EBRs, I really don't care for AKs or SKSs. 7.62x39 in a good rifle is fine.

A pox on you sir! :P

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: I burned out on little black plastic Matty Mattel Mouse Guns. When they make one in .30-'06 I'll buy one.

Well given that people don't understand producing a .308 top end on a .223 receiver. I doubt they'll do that one or get it to work right. ;)

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rojkoh posted this 17 April 2013

Vassal wrote: http://www.onlylongrange.com/bn36.asp

UHH ohh ED.

One serious problem with this kind of rifle:

Putting a serious caliber top on a receiver made for .308. Stoner did do it with the AR 10, but everyone else thinks using a .223 bottom will work right.

Doubt it'll stand up to serious use. Besides, Given the quality I've seen on a fair amount of ARs, IF I actually was tempted, I'd go Les Baer. His quality levels out of the box are unsurpassed.

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EDG posted this 28 April 2013

I guess you could make the same idiot argument for omitting sealant on case necks.

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rojkoh posted this 29 April 2013

EDG wrote: I guess you could make the same idiot argument for omitting sealant on case necks.

That depends on who's doing the sealing. if it was Lake City (depending on who had the contract), I have no problem with it since I've shot a lot of M118 which was sealed with Asphalt. DO I personally seal ammo? No. I load typically for ammo to be used out to 1000 yards. No reason to seal it. never had a problem with it.

Then we could get into the argument of crimp or not.. but I won't. Many of us old shooters have little interest in the mouse guns, we burnt out of that one years ago. But Gene did design the AR 10 differently which brought up the comment about a larger caliber top end on an AR platform.

You overlook the fact that Ed and I joke with each other. We're known each other a lot of years.

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Ed Harris posted this 29 April 2013

Vassal wrote: http://www.onlylongrange.com/bn36.asp UHH ohh ED.

Gee, I wonder if it takes BAR mags? Oh my! be still my heart!:shock:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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