This is almost an extension of shootin the barrel clean.I'm with seargent 69, I don't clean alot. But here goes. I've witnessed the long range boys cleaning copper out of their barrels every 5 or so shots. Do we as cast shooters get any copper fouling from the gc's ? Enough to worry about? Those loutenboomer-kickenharder boys are absolutley anal about it.
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One year I shot an entire benchrest season without cleaning. At the end of the season I was having to shoot five foulers rather than three before the first match. The last ten years or so, I run one damp patch of Ed's Red down the bore and one dry patch at the end of the day. At the end of the season, I brush the bore with a nylon brush wet with Ed's Red mostly to remove the primer fouling in front of the throat. FWIW, I have never seen copper fouling from gas checks, but I never looked very hard either.
I have never seen it in any 30-30, 30.06 or 308 CB load.
Theory #1 Lubricant also protects from GC fouling.
Actual practice: Tin foil is put in large caliber howitzer and cannon ammunition to eliminate the copper fouling from the driving bands. Tin forms a metallic compound with copper, the tin/copper compound is brittle, lower melting point and is blown out.
The active ingredient in the "new" copper fouling eraser powders is tin oxide.
Theory #2 There is enough tin in our alloys to get rid of any GC copper fouling.
No worry mon,
Judging from my experiments a year or so ago (reported here and in TFS) Even copper fouling from 20 rounds of jacketed loads does not affect the accuracy of CB loads fired afterward. Even some weak indication that a bit of jacketed fouling may improve CB accuracy.
Of course this refutes the advice repeated for 100 years that shooting jacketed bullet ruins CB accuracy afterwards. So the actual experimental results are already forgotten and we have reverted to the myth that copper fouling ruins CB accuracy.
I am not optimistic about any future progress in CB knowledge or practice. Like Kansas City (in "Oklahoma") "We have gone about as fur as we can go." Cast bullet shooters seem to be comfortable with that.
Back when I shot the .30/06 in military competition my POI would drop one bullet hole at a time after 25 shots. It would hold that POI from around shot 6 to shot 25. Before that it was high and after that it would drop one bullet hole at a time.
I think you are right, in that some things are so ingrained that nobody wants to believe the contrary.
It is worth, maybe, de-coppering a military rifle that has thousands of rounds and never really cleaned of fouling. While breaking in Savage 308 barrel, alternating between jacketed and lead groups between cleanings, to see when to quit. Growing tired of that, I shot five rounds of Armor Piercing bullets and then a lead bullet group. That was the best group of two afternoons of shooting.
A seasoned lead bullet barrel shouldn't have any, or much, copper fouling that will not wipe out with a patch. A cleaned to the steel barrel just uses the copper to fill in the milling marks. My days of using the Outer's Foul Out electronic machine are long gone.
I was asked by John if Ed Doonan had ever tested this. This is the reply that I feel should be added to the discussion. Reading Ric's latest thoughts, I think Ric, Ed and I are on the same page.
Farm boy from Western Illinois, living in the Magical Pacific Northwest
Once again I figgered this was a non factor. Just that some are so paranoid that some copper fouling will nock them off target at 1000 yds, so I had to ask. I've worn out more barrels from cleaning than shooting. I'm aint a gonna do that again.
i don't consider this jacking a post since you brought it up, but exactly how do you ruin a bbl by cleaning it? again, i grew up "knowing" that leaving harsh (ammonia based,? i dunno) solvent like sweets in a bbl a long time would crater the bbl, and cleaning from front to back would gouge the muzzle. but everytime it was brought up, some old timer ( you know the 40 yr olds and up) would claim BS and the fight was on. it was kinda like telling the wife " are you really gonna wear that"? anyway, turning 70 next year, if i had a nickle for everytime i heard someone ruined a bbl by cleaning it, i could afford my own "orgy pasture". bill clinton would have to bring his own sheep though.
Gary "Onadaga" (RIP) always pushed "Slickness" and had a method using Chrome Polish and a Bore Snake to "slick" up a barrel. His thoughts were that the now "slicked" bore shot better. The down side is that the experiment is hard to reproduce. The treatment changes the barrel and you only have a before and after but can't go back. I have not yet learned enough (or copied enough) cast bullet knowledge to know if something I change actually results in increases in accuracy. I guess the fun is in the chase, but there is a long way to go for me though. I think I do everything right but my tools are not precise enough to get me the accuracy that a jacketed bullet will give me. That said, I can get enough accuracy with a couple of loads to keep me in contention for CMP type matches.
Happy Belated Birthday America.
Sergeant69: The two barrels I have "shot out" were worn at the muzzlefrom the cleaning rod. One a Muzzle loader and one a 30-06. I have another muzzleloader that is in need of its second re-crown, nothing serious, just par for the course with muzzleloaders. That is one of the reasons old m/l target rifles have a false muzzle, it takes all the guff of the ram- cleaning rod along with aligning the bullet. No arguments- just my experience.
It is fairly common around here, where it is dusty, to find 10-20 year old sporters with the lands worn off from cleaning with plastic coated rods. Without wiping every stroke, or using a bore guide, it just becomes an abrasive tube. And worse when using a .22 caliber rod to try to clean a .30 caliber bore. Guns weren't unuseable, but not as good as they could have been.
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