Loverin design bullets

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M3 Mitch posted this 26 September 2019

It seems like the Loverin designed bullets are not very popular any more.  I have shot a Lyman .25 caliber Loverin in my 257 Roberts, and while I have not set any records, it shoots "minute of beer can" out to nearly 100 yards.  It seems that Lyman does not make many Loverin design any more, the one I have is not in the catalog any more.

Anyone else shoot these?  Is there a newer design that makes them obsolete?

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John Carlson posted this 27 September 2019

NOE has several bullets more or less mimicking the Loverin design.  

Holding public office should be viewed as an obligation to serve, not an opportunity to rule.

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RicinYakima posted this 27 September 2019

Well, They were designed to shoot 2 MOA at high velocity in 1950 (1850 f/s). They used a lot of sheep tallow and beeswax lube to keep the leading down because they were bore size rather than throat size. The lighter weight ones for each bore size shot better than the heavies. When I started shooting cast bullets, and trying for 2000 f/s plus, I could make these work with 1980's lubes and unsized. IMHO, the design was a dead end. Some people can get them to shoot and others can not.

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shastaboat posted this 27 September 2019

I have Loverin designs in 6.5, 7mm, .30 cal and 8mm.  I find they generally shoot consistent and prefer them seated to just kiss the lands.  I particularly like them because of the multiple lube grooves.  And I agree that the lighter weights in a caliber generally shoot better.  The worst one I tried is the 266469.  It bent while sizing and key-holed terribly.  I don't understand those who do not want to use all the lube grooves.

 

Because I said so!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 September 2019

... also, they were mostly round-nose.  even for my tin can plinking, flat noses spray more water ...

although i used to have a hollow-point 225438 ... oh so nasty on rats and starlings ..

**********

my loverin 225462 had a button nose smaller than my bore .. after squishing it in a die, it shot pretty good, but in my 14 twist, i had to load it hotter than i prefer, so sold it.

just ramblin'   ken

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beltfed posted this 29 September 2019

Years ago, I shot a Lot of Lyman 311466 Loverin bullets thru my T/C Contender 30-30.

These gave me Excellent accuracy and power at 1900fps across my Oehler Chrono.

After a tie, at 39/40, I won in a shootoff  in which  I hit  7 of 10 beer cans AT 200 Yards.

Have since picked up an old Lyman 311467 Loverin mold to try in my M1941 MC Sniper Rifle

in CBA Vin Mil matches vs. my exlt shooting  311299 and 311334 bullets.

I have to say that the 311466 and 311467 will have to shoot really well before I would switch from

the other bullets.

beltfed/arnie

 

 

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Larry Gibson posted this 29 September 2019

I use several actual Loverin and pseudo Loverin design cast bullets {225462, 266455, 28-168-FN, 311465, 311466, 323470 and 323471].  They al shoot very well but share one design flaw.  They provide excellent accuracy at nominal cast bullet velocities below the RPM Threshold and most often give better accuracy above the RPM Threshold than most of the designs with bore riding noses of that era.  The longer bearing surface of the Loverin designs were most often well suited to the longer neck cartridges and longer throats of milsurp rifles back then.  That attributed to a better fit in the cartridge necks (kept the GC inside the neck) and in the chamber throats.

They were designed back before the advent of "modern lubes" to include the NRA 50/50 lube and meant to carry, what was thought back then, sufficient lube for "higher velocity". .  Thus with modern lubes the lube grooves are too wide and to deep.  With the harder lubes we have today the lube is not purged off evenly on exit of the muzzle which creates initial imbalance and wobble of the bullet resulting in larger groups down range.  With the use of a soft modern lube (NRA 50/50, 2800+, etc.) the soft lube purges off the bullet evenly, especially at higher RPM) and thus the bullets remain more accurate. 

 As to higher velocity performance in 12, 14 and 16" twist rifles of various cartridges I have gotten excellent accuracy of 2 moa or less (mostly 1.5 moa or less) with 10 shot groups out to at least 300 yards.  The velocities range from 2300 to 2700+ fps.  The key being to keep the RPM under the Threshold. 

There are more modern designs of recent that combine a higher percentage of bearing surface and smaller, shallower lube grooves which result in better balanced bullets out of the mould, better structural support during acceleration and, with modern lubes, sufficient lube capacity.  Those have proved to be more accurate cast bullets than the Loverin designs in matches and at high velocity.  However, for general cast bullet shooting in rifles such as the 22H, 222 Rem, 6.5x55, 7x57,30-06, 30-30, 30-40 and the 8x57 the Loverin designs are very hard to beat for accuracy, if they are beat at all.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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beltfed posted this 30 September 2019

Larry, could you please describe and tell us the RPM threshold of say the 311466  and the 311471?

I presume this relates to the twist rate, and velocity.

Thanks

beltfed/arnie

 

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Larry Gibson posted this 30 September 2019

beltfed

Yes the RPM Threshold does relate to the twist rate and velocity as those are what creates the RPM. First let me reiterate that the RPM Threshold for any cast bullet of a ternary alloy is not a "limit" or a set RPM rate.  The RPM Threshold is simply the point (an RPM level) where if crossed (exceeded) the accuracy really starts going south.  The loss of accuracy is non-linear as the range increases.  The beginning of crossing the RPM threshold is very noticeable at 100 yards when an incremental load workup has been giving very nice roundish consistent groups (10 shot groups really are needed here)  when at an incremental increase we start getting flyers (one or two) that are not called.  Then as the incremental load is increased the group really opens.  If tested at 50 yards we seldom see this because it takes distance for the centrifugal force to act upon the bullets.  As the range increases beyond 100 yards the group expansion will be non-linear when the RPM Threshold is crossed.   

As to the 311466 of which I currently have 2 moulds (2 & 4 cavity Lyman's) but have used other 311466 moulds over the years I've found best accuracy (100 and 200 yard) with ternary alloyed bullets with BHNs of 18 – 22  will come in the 130 -140,000 RPM range.  There are numerous ways we can push that range up a bit or, conversely, lower that range.  However with most .30 caliber barrels having 4 - 6 groves .004 deep that is the RPM range where best accuracy most often occurs.   

As to the 323471 which is an excellent cast bullet in 8x57 milsurp rifles.  The M98s with barrel/chambers made to German specifications with have long throats and grooves .005+ deep.  In a “new” VZ24/47 with new barrel I acquired some years back I found the 323471 seated so it jus was engraved by the leade left the GC right at the bottom of the neck.  This left a long length of the bearing surface up into and supported by the chamber throat.  I size the 323471s at .325 which is just a perfect slip fit into the throat.  With the 10” twist of the barrel, the deep grooves (.0055” in my rifle) and using slower burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC and RL22)  I can push a 323471 upwards of 2150 fps and maintain 2 moa accuracy to 300 yards with 10 shot groups.  That is about 154,000 RPM which demonstrates that the bullet with a long bearing surface, a minimal length non bore riding nose of proper alloy and fit using slower burning powders I a bore with 4 deep groves can push the RPM threshold up a bit and still maintain linear group dispersion as the range increases.  However, let me say that the really best accuracy (1 – 1.5 moa) with that 323471 bullet in numerous 10” twist 8x57s also comes in the 1850 – 1940 fps range which is about 133 – 140,000 RPM.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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BigMan54 posted this 02 October 2019

Have 2, a 7mm #287405 and a .30cal #311467. Both are Gas Check. I use the #287405 in a old 1893 Spanish Mauser. Perfect bore, it's a carbine remade to a Scout Rifle. At 50yds it'll group 3 shots into one hole, at 100yrds it's 3 into an 1 1/4". 

The #311467 gets my M1917, It's bore is forty miles of bad road. But those 1st 3 shots,  just under 1 3/4". After that the next five will hit the black, the third 6 the paper. The last 7, I leave in the box for next time.  

They ain't as snazzy as others, but they do shoot straight for me.

 

Long time Caster/Reloader, Getting back into it after almost 10yrs. Life Member NRA 40+yrs, Life S.A.S.S. #375. Does this mean a description of me as a fumble-fingered knuckle-draggin' baboon. I also drool in my sleep. I firmly believe that true happiness is a warm gun. Did I mention how much I HATE auto-correct on this blasted tablet.

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bushranch posted this 07 October 2019

311466 150 grain - good results with this bullet in 30-30 , .300 Sav and .308 . 

311407 - Had 2 of these one at about .311 and one large at .316 . The .311 went to a friend who used it for deer hunting as per Ric's comment. I size the .316 down to .314 then taper the nose in a .311 sizing die. Shoot this in the .303 at about 1450 fps. Have had some great 7 and 8 shot groups but can't make it hold out for 10 . (Canadian Ross) My P14 does not like this bullet . 

 

Rus

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Eutectic posted this 09 October 2019

I have 311467U (the undersize version) In lino it casts 311 on the body. the nose and front bands are tapered the nose is .301 first band is 303 second band is .305. In a 30.06 which, I think this bullet was designed for, it fits in the lead cone of a factory chamber with the gas check in the neck. Sized .310 and ready to load it is 179 grains. With a full case of slow powder giving 2100 fs it shoots 1 1/4 inch groups all day. It has done under 2" in at least six rifles, that is dependability! It will shoot as well as jacketed bullets in every rifle I tried it in.

I also have 311466 and it worked in some guns but was not as dependable. I could push it up to 2300 fps. with good accuracy.

A friend had 311407 which is the flat point version of 311467. I shot it and it grouped just like 311467 at 100 yards. I would choose it for hunting over 311467.

The Lovern designs are not magic, but at modest velocity they are very good.

Steve

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